148 réponses à ce sujet

[wowpwnslol]

Gloxgasm wrote...

And then the second wave spawns and they are at 0 stamina and kite for minutes. Congratz, you blew every single cooldown and killed hopefully a full wave.

You know, I heard rogues can 1 shot enemies. Mages should have that ability too!

That's what second wind, bolster and stamina draughts are for. I am never out of stamina on warrior, unlike rogue.

[tybert7]

Gloxgasm wrote...

Sorry but that post screams L2P. Mages do awesome damage in party enviroments with CCC. On top of that, mages have AOE, buffs, heals, and CC. What you all seem to be crying for is easymode not balance.

On top of that, most of you throw in the "Warrior +2 mage backup does so much damage, why can't my lone mage do that" whine. Yet again, learn to use CCC at the least. It isn't hand. Do you guys need a guide to be able to hit chain lightning when you stagger a mob? Maybe a dev could come over your house and press the button for you?

You want a mage to be able to stagger and chain lightning on his own? Why even have 3 classes in the game then? Might as well make it mage only.

In every bioware game I have playe since baldurs gate 2, I have enjoyed the playstyle of the casters.  Dragon Age 2 is the first game where that was not true.  It actually irritates me that to do higher damage, I have to micro between characters, not just within my own character.  You prefer that system?  good for #%^ing you.  I don't.

In mmos, where there is even greater need for balance, characters often bring debuffs that allow other players to do more damage, like a passive damage or crit or haste increase.  But guess what?  The MICRO is not between classes, it's all within the same class.  And even if you could control multiple characters, it's still a better system to have the GOD DAMN class MICRO CONTAINED IN A SINGLE class.  Jesus.


It's like our taste and preferences was formed in different universes, you actually PREFER this crap system?  I don't know what to say to that.  Maybe most people are like you.  But it goes a long way to explaining what irritates the hell out of me when playing this game.

Modifié par tybert7, 28 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Proper tactics allow you to control 1 character, thus directing the placement of the stagger, dissorient, or brittle. It really is not difficult to set up.

[Gloxgasm]

I get extremely bored when I try to play a warrior. It was more fun in (insert game here). Mage is a lot more fun to me and I enjoy both the challenge and versatility. That said, there are issues, but not the ones people have been whining about. We have useless trees and spells from DA:O that I'd love to see back. Keep in mind that my main is a solo mage so when I add in a party on other playthroughs, my damage goes through the roof. Having that extra chance to exploit a CCC is awesome.

I miss being able to freeze and shatter my own target, sleep and horror, etc but I can live without it. Each time you use the right element against a certain enemy, you at least double your dps. That is "good enough". Nature tree would be nice. They limited themselves with the current skill trees too heavily.

[Mugnir]

I feel like I end up playing a warrior no matter what class I pick.

[SuicidalBaby]

Gloxgasm wrote...

I get extremely bored when I try to play a warrior. It was more fun in (insert game here). Mage is a lot more fun to me and I enjoy both the challenge and versatility. That said, there are issues, but not the ones people have been whining about. We have useless trees and spells from DA:O that I'd love to see back. Keep in mind that my main is a solo mage so when I add in a party on other playthroughs, my damage goes through the roof. Having that extra chance to exploit a CCC is awesome.

I miss being able to freeze and shatter my own target, sleep and horror, etc but I can live without it. Each time you use the right element against a certain enemy, you at least double your dps. That is "good enough". Nature tree would be nice. They limited themselves with the current skill trees too heavily.

lol yeah, I really enjoy all the +%nature damage items that only my PC can wear.  You know that staff damage, oo buddy look out.  Or the epic overpowered Entropic Cloud, I cant get enough of that spell.  It's small radius, low damage, and short duration make casting it for 5 seconds so worth it.  Man I love that spell.  Spending the 8 points to get it was totally worth it.

All of that doesn't mean I still dont enjoy making entire groups of enemies pop from the inside shortly after a properly set up shield bash.

[Gloxgasm]

AI is rather bad at it. Try a 3 rogue playthrough ;]

[Gloxgasm]

Sorry I didn't spell it out fully for you here. Enthrophy tree is useless. Nature damage is very good against vertain mobs and having your basic attacks hitting for 100 instead of 30 is a huge improvement just from having the right staff on. Throw on elemental weapons and the whole party gets a bonus. Again, sorry if I have to spell out mage basics to you.

You sounds like the sort of guy that shoots fireballs at dragons.

[Nukenin]

tybert7 wrote...

In every bioware game I have playe since baldurs gate 2, I have enjoyed the playstyle of the casters.  Dragon Age 2 is the first game where that was not true.  It actually irritates me that to do higher damage, I have to micro between characters, not just within my own character.  You prefer that system?  good for #%^ing you.  I don't.

In mmos, where there is even greater need for balance, characters often bring debuffs that allow other players to do more damage, like a passive damage or crit or haste increase.  But guess what?  The MICRO is not between classes, it's all within the same class.  And even if you could control multiple characters, it's still a better system to have the GOD DAMN class MICRO CONTAINED IN A SINGLE class.  Jesus.


It's like our taste and preferences was formed in different universes, you actually PREFER this crap system?  I don't know what to say to that.  Maybe most people are like you.  But it goes a long way to explaining what irritates the hell out of me when playing this game.

You don't have to play this game.   It might address the issues you are having.

Yes, I prefer being able to do everything within one character so I don't have to socialize or be dependent on anyone else, be it in an MMORPG or a single-player CRPG.  I'm the hero, not Carver.  I'm the Carvest, baby. 

I should be able to STAGGER, make BRITTLE, and DISORIENT all with one whirling spin of my DEATH BLOSSOM.  Which should also be able to capitalize on STAGGERED, BRITTLE, and DISORIENTED for X9000 damages.  Plus, this should be the default action for my character out of the gate.  I shouldn't even be presented with the insult that is class selection.  I have no class and demand that Hawke be classless as well. 

It'd simplify the quest system, since no quest can be offered by a charred heap of DEATH BLOSSOMed ash.  There will be no letters or notes or secret sigils left behind in that molten mass of experience point accrual to instigate unnecessary questages. <_<

It'd also be easier on the fingers, as with DEATH BLOSSOM autocasting everytime it's off cooldown in a combat situation (which is constantly, since of course cooldowns are asinine and thus not applicable), you need merely sit and wait for the game win cutscene.  No need to pick and choose moralities when you're just killing everything like a proper caster playstyle should. 

Yes, I apologize.  I mock.  I'm a mocker. 

[tybert7]

Nukenin wrote...

tybert7 wrote...

In every bioware game I have playe since baldurs gate 2, I have enjoyed the playstyle of the casters.  Dragon Age 2 is the first game where that was not true.  It actually irritates me that to do higher damage, I have to micro between characters, not just within my own character.  You prefer that system?  good for #%^ing you.  I don't.

In mmos, where there is even greater need for balance, characters often bring debuffs that allow other players to do more damage, like a passive damage or crit or haste increase.  But guess what?  The MICRO is not between classes, it's all within the same class.  And even if you could control multiple characters, it's still a better system to have the GOD DAMN class MICRO CONTAINED IN A SINGLE class.  Jesus.


It's like our taste and preferences was formed in different universes, you actually PREFER this crap system?  I don't know what to say to that.  Maybe most people are like you.  But it goes a long way to explaining what irritates the hell out of me when playing this game.

You don't have to play this game.   It might address the issues you are having.

Yes, I prefer being able to do everything within one character so I don't have to socialize or be dependent on anyone else, be it in an MMORPG or a single-player CRPG.  I'm the hero, not Carver.  I'm the Carvest, baby. 

I should be able to STAGGER, make BRITTLE, and DISORIENT all with one whirling spin of my DEATH BLOSSOM.  Which should also be able to capitalize on STAGGERED, BRITTLE, and DISORIENTED for X9000 damages.  Plus, this should be the default action for my character out of the gate.  I shouldn't even be presented with the insult that is class selection.  I have no class and demand that Hawke be classless as well. 

It'd simplify the quest system, since no quest can be offered by a charred heap of DEATH BLOSSOMed ash.  There will be no letters or notes or secret sigils left behind in that molten mass of experience point accrual to instigate unnecessary questages. <_<

It'd also be easier on the fingers, as with DEATH BLOSSOM autocasting everytime it's off cooldown in a combat situation (which is constantly, since of course cooldowns are asinine and thus not applicable), you need merely sit and wait for the game win cutscene.  No need to pick and choose moralities when you're just killing everything like a proper caster playstyle should. 

Yes, I apologize.  I mock.  I'm a mocker. 

The devs of this game seemed to forget it was a single player game.  Characters do not need to be kept in line in their power, so long as one class does not completely outstrip another.  What is the harm of having in class combos?  They already allow it between classes, it is not the higher damage they are against.  

You know what they are against?  player character focused play.  they wanted to force feed specific team switching play/reliance, and if you don't like it, @#$% you, and hit for nothing.  That is the design of this game.  It's not the damage they are against, it's the focusing on this horrible thing called the player character.  

DEVS:  YOU BETTER MICRO WITH THE OTHER CHARACTERS OR ELSE !!!!!!!!

Player:  Or else what?

DEVS:  GIMP DAMAGE !!!!


To be fair, there is always a certain path that leads to best damage, my problem here is that I do not like the style/path they took and demand we follow in order to be more effective.  It makes the combat more of a chore imo, and it seems alot of you love doing chores.  

Modifié par tybert7, 28 mars 2011 - 03:07 .

[SuicidalBaby]

The only chore I've had to deal with is switching weapons constantly. Man they screwed up leaving that simple little tool behind.

[knownastherat]

Nukenin wrote...

[snip]

I should be able to STAGGER, make BRITTLE, and DISORIENT all with one whirling spin of my DEATH BLOSSOM.  Which should also be able to capitalize on STAGGERED, BRITTLE, and DISORIENTED for X9000 damages.  Plus, this should be the default action for my character out of the gate.  I shouldn't even be presented with the insult that is class selection.  I have no class and demand that Hawke be classless as well. 

[snip]

No not really. All I need is hasted Mordy swords.  Hmm maybe Mass Invisible, maybe some Chain Contingency and Lower Resistance, how about Wish? Oops I did it again ..

[Graunt]

Oh hey, it's this thread again.  Can't wait for it to reach 26 pages too.

The only chore I've had to deal with is switching weapons constantly.
Man they screwed up leaving that simple little tool behind.

This x 1000.  My biggest complaint by far though is the staff animations preventing you from casting in time if you're on the 3rd and 4th swings.

Modifié par Graunt, 28 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[Jman5]

Graunt wrote...

Oh hey, it's this thread again.  Can't wait for it to reach 26 pages too.

The only chore I've had to deal with is switching weapons constantly.
Man they screwed up leaving that simple little tool behind.

This x 1000.  My biggest complaint by far though is the staff animations preventing you from casting in time if you're on the 3rd and 4th swings.

I hate when I miss a stagger because Hawke is too busy showing off.

[Gage123]

Gloxgasm wrote...

Is it really that hard to do a basic Stagger > Chain Lighting or a Disorient > Spirit Bolt type of thing? I just don't get it. On hard you can drop a ton of aoe right on top of yourself and do some massive damage. You can taunt > walking bomb whole groups of enemies in seconds.

How are you playing your mage that you feel so underpowered?

Why is it that mages NEED to have stagger/disorient to do damage or have a VWB every 30 sec (if all things line up perfectly) to destroy mobs when a warrior can just rush in and blow **** up without being dependent on brittle/disorient?

Do tell oh wise one, why are mages the only one that needs to have stagger and disorient to do good damage?

Why not, oh lets say a mod, that increases mage damage spells by 100% but decreases stagger/disorient modifiers by 50%? Is that so bad? Same damage on stagger/disoriented mobs but more consistent damage without.

Oh wait, you are the great one who believes that EVERYTHING is at it should be as long as YOU are fine with it.

[Gage123]

Besetment wrote...

I tend to find that on Nightmare, it works out better if I'm controlling Fenris and applying stagger. Then I just set my Hawke mage tactics really good. The AI nails chain lightning better than I can but I think thats more to do with me being better than the AI at spreading stagger around.

If I let the AI control Fenris, it tends to scrap it out to the death, when its far better to activate Claymore, hit, bolster, new target, hit, bolster, new target, hit, bolster etc. The only time where that doesn't apply is if you can get a really good Whirlwind that creams like 5 dudes at once.

You do either of the above and you are only hitting each dude once, but they all simultaneously explode around you in a fountain of gibs thanks to double chain reactions. Anyway, I did find it slightly disappointing that the AI could do my Mage job better than I could so I spend alot of time directly controlling Fenris or Aveline instead. It sometimes feels like playing a gimped 2H warrior with a really mega awesome npc ally.

It feels like you aren't so much the champion they claim you to be yes?
You are the NPC champion XD

[Jman5]

You don't need debuffs to do good damage as a mage. However, if you want to do better damage, you would be wise to take advantage of them. It also just so happens that mages are king when it comes to both setting up and using Cross class Combos.

It's no skin off my back if you don't want to use them, but you're gimping your party's damage output.

Modifié par Jman5, 28 mars 2011 - 06:10 .

[Graunt]

Gage123 wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

Is it really that hard to do a basic Stagger > Chain Lighting or a Disorient > Spirit Bolt type of thing? I just don't get it. On hard you can drop a ton of aoe right on top of yourself and do some massive damage. You can taunt > walking bomb whole groups of enemies in seconds.

How are you playing your mage that you feel so underpowered?

Why is it that mages NEED to have stagger/disorient to do damage or have a VWB every 30 sec (if all things line up perfectly) to destroy mobs when a warrior can just rush in and blow **** up without being dependent on brittle/disorient?

Do tell oh wise one, why are mages the only one that needs to have stagger and disorient to do good damage?

Why not, oh lets say a mod, that increases mage damage spells by 100% but decreases stagger/disorient modifiers by 50%? Is that so bad? Same damage on stagger/disoriented mobs but more consistent damage without.

Oh wait, you are the great one who believes that EVERYTHING is at it should be as long as YOU are fine with it.

Because Warriors don't just run in and "blow things up" without blowing every single cooldown just to kill a single target, that's why.  The ignorance in this thread is going to cause it to keep replicating exactly the same as it did in the other thread.

Why does this video feel like it only shows a portion, a REALLY small
one, where the mage does damage only every 20 sec rather than every sec
like that warrior hacking and slashing non-stop.

I honestly think
they made mages too dependent on CCC compared to other classes which
don't need CCC to actually kill groups quickly.

Yeah, just like I said in the other thread, there would be ignorant people claiming that video doesn't "truly" demonstrate how "most" fights go.  Yet the two most prolific authors about two-handed Warrior gameplay are telling you otherwise, yet you're still refusing to believe the facts of the situation.  I wouldn't be suprised if a developer chimed in to back up the claims that it's all about teamwork no matter what class you chose and that Warriors are NOT the be-all-end-all solo machine and you would still refuse to see logic.  My Mage has three spells that take advantage of stagger and that's in between everything else I am busy with.

A Warrior who is only auto attacking is not "blowing things up", nor do Whirlwind, Scythe and Mighty Blow have 5s cooldowns, nor can a Warrior contribute at all when an enemy is coming from long distance and the rest of your group is focus firing it down from range -- killing it before it even arrives.

You don't need debuffs to do good damage as a mage.

Well yeah, you pretty much do.  You CAN play around with Fireball/Firestorm and Walking Bomb, but those really are not BnB spells.  Tempest would probably be the only spell you have that can actually do significant damage (to an overall mass) without the need for any debuffs, but if you truly want to deal damage, you have to be using staggers -- there's just no way around that at all.  Using something like Spirit Bolt or Winter's Grasp is not really a way to do real DPS, they are just one time affairs with a moderate to long cooldown which are best used on enemies weak to their element or simply non resistant.  The damage in general is nothing special though without a debuff.

Modifié par Graunt, 28 mars 2011 - 08:03 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Because Warriors don't just run in and "blow things up" without blowing
every single cooldown just to kill a single target, that's why.  The
ignorance in this thread is going to cause it to keep replicating
exactly the same as it did in the other thread.

Sadly ignorant fanbois can't keep themselves from insulting everyone who wants a balanced game.

Yeah, just like I said in the other thread, there would be ignorant
people claiming that video doesn't "truly" demonstrate how "most" fights
go. 

Sadly ignorant fanbois claim a video showing warrior Hawke killing with mage backup means that Mage Hawke can kill things as fast as Warrior Hawke.

Again, I challenged you for 20+pages in the other thread to show vidoes of Mage Hawke killing as fast as Warrior Hawke. You could not. In true fanboi fassion you are quite good at throwing out insults at everyone who says the game is not perfect but suck at presenting any evidence to back your claims.

[Morocius]

The single worst thing about mages is having to swap staves on nightmare, the second worst is missing staggers because you're busy with an extravagant swing. Still mages bring a lot of crowd control, buffs and aoe damage to the table i guess you can't have it all because single target damage is fairly pathetic.

It's fun that you can control the battlefield, however it's less fun when you find out that the AI is fairly obvlious to it and you will have to micro manage them aswell. As warrior i can set up tactics near perfectly so my team will compliment me and minor switching around is only needed when anders is running into a host of mobs for no apperant reason at all. As rogue i need to switch a little more because jaw face really enjoys playing twster and will always run for the large colored spots on the ground. I guess as mage you need a more refined playing style.

Also rogue single target damage is obscene especially Assassinate.

[Amioran]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Again, I challenged you for 20+pages in the other thread to show vidoes of Mage Hawke killing as fast as Warrior Hawke. You could not. In true fanboi fassion you are quite good at throwing out insults at everyone who says the game is not perfect but suck at presenting any evidence to back your claims.

Is it indeed possible that you cannot understand this simple thing? You will never see a video as that for a mage because damage of a mage is done in SPIKES and under certain variables that are not always the same in every situation. The auto-attacks of a mage are really low compared to other classes, the constant damage is lower.

So, to demonstrate the power of a mage you should look at videos that does spike damage to enemies in an area, but not always, naturally. If you look at average damage, done between pauses it's obvious that classes that have more power with auto-attacks and produce damage numbers in a constant manner will win. or better, more than "win", they will simply have a completely different gameplay and so you cannot expect to see the same exact things between the two.

The same videos of the warrior shows (also if not specifically) the damage that can be done by a mage in spikes, and those videos are neither tailored to use all the damaging spells. You can create a video of a mage destroying a group of enemies in a second, then probably wait in the other horde (depending on the situation and how they are positioned etc.), then destroy and so on, you cannot create a video that produces damage in a constant matter because that's not how damage of a mage works. It HAS NEVER worked this way, and it will never will. Do you think DAO mages weak? Just askin, because, you know, also there with a mage you couldn't create constant damage as showed in the warriors video you quoted. Neither in DnD 3.5 you can (and there even less).

Does this mean that a mage, since it cannot do constant damage to everything just pause and healbot the rest of the time? Not either, because he can control the battlefield and render ineffective strong targets. THIS IS DAMAGE, INDIRECT, BUT DAMAGE NONETHELESS  only that you dont' want to see it and focus just on what you want, because it is more simple this way.

Do you want to see a video of Walking Bomb destroying the Danzing encounter (that you have in the videos of the mach-5 warrior) much faster than a warrior? You certainly can, without much difficulty, you don't need either a video as simple as it is. However there are more variables for a mage and this is not always possible. It depends on the encounters and it depends on what things you focus.

So, before asking a video you should learn that: A) you cannot compare lemons and organges as if they should be the same just because they are fruits, you cannot expect the same gameplay from a mage as the one of a warrior, C) you cannot expect to see only what you want to see and discard all the rest.

Till now I still don't get if your IQ is truly so low to not let you understand these simple differences or if you play smart asking for something that cannot be done in the same exact way just because the variables are totally different and you know it perfectly. So, or you are truly an idiot or you want to be right and you use a masquerade appositedly asking for something that you know perfectly that cannot be done, but AT PRIORI, not because of the "gimpness" of the class.

Modifié par Amioran, 28 mars 2011 - 09:35 .

[Nogthwai]

Well, I'm not overly concerned about the balance in a single player game but all the Mages in DA:O were overpowered to the extreme. Due to the fact that there are no healers in the Game you have to pay somehow for your ability to heal aynway, especially since DA2 was more or less balanced like an MMORPG. As such a Mage should never be a good DPS class or atleast not as good as the others. I guess some people don't like this.

You could always mod the Game and give your spells tripple the damage if you want to. If the Game is too hard for your mage, simply go bck to casual or normal where you can obliterate almost anything with two spells. The only thing that remotely matters for internal balance in DA2 is the fact that you want people to have a smiliar experience regardless of the class they choose. As such, it's quite okay if the mages feel gimped compared to Dragon Age Origins.

Modifié par Nogthwai, 28 mars 2011 - 09:46 .

[tod_22]

Even without stagger and disorient mages can be incredibily powerful. Whilst it doesn't work on all enemies you can use Pull of the Abyss, Cone of Cold and Walking Bomb to kill an entire wave of lesser enemies in seconds.

[Besetment]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Proper tactics allow you to control 1 character, thus directing the placement of the stagger, dissorient, or brittle. It really is not difficult to set up.

Thats actually part of the problem. When it comes to CCC, the AI is very good at casting chain lightning, stone fist and fist of the maker on status effect. Applying the status effect is something you can do alot better than the AI can, so if you want to do high, reliable damage with a Mage, you will invariably be controlling Fenris/Aveline most of the time.

You can set tactics on Fenris/Aveline to propagate stagger under ideal conditions but they never do it as well as you can do it yourself. Furthermore, the staff animation makes it finicky to get off chain lightnings on time. If you set tactics on the Mage to do this, the AI will cast it in like 1 microsecond of stagger being applied so your BOOM! rate is much higher.

I still play Hawke Mage in a fully party as a 2H warrior (Fenris) for the most part. Playing Hawke Warrior is more fun imho because you get to use the specialization talents too. It also helps that Merrill is a better blood mage than Hawke can be for most of the game because you can go full Magic/Constitution and not have to worry about armor requirements. You can have her version of Hemmorhage much sooner and pump magic much higher and it works well when you set the AI to handle casting it with tactics.

The AI is also pretty good at using gravitic ring and pull of the abyss on Hawke Mage. It is possible to almost completely script your Mage so that playing it is very hands off. Its kind of strange really. Its like the Champion is a killer npc in Fenris' party.

I imagine it rather like playing some bizarro version of Starfox where Falco and Peppy are awesome and flip out and kill everything for you, but you as Fox McCloud get all the glory in the cutscenes.

Modifié par Besetment, 28 mars 2011 - 12:51 .

[knownastherat]

Falco and Peppy

So .. everyone is fine with CCCs, as mechanics? Say in every Bioware game from now on if one will want to press a button for something awesome to happen, to quote the maker, one will need someone else, be it AI, to press a button prior to it? Because I am not really sure I do like it all that much.