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Is there a mage spec that will make me not feel gimped?


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#126
Roxlimn

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tybert7:

Casual is not "baby mode." Just that phrasing itself suggests that you have some sort of issue with playing on lower difficulty settings for reasons known only to yourself.

My impression is that you don't find turning the difficulty down satisfying purely because you have issues with appearing like a baby or a child. Ditch the issues, enjoy the game.

CCCs are not something that you have to use, and most of the classes have non-specific self-combos.

Zan Mura:

They aren't "game settings" as long as FF is tied to Nightmare. And anyway as I've been saying all over the place here, this problem isn't even tied to difficulty. The whole mechanics in the game are different from DAO's in that the players work under different rules from the enemy. Differen't HP's, different damage, different spells etc. It feels highly artificial and unrealistic with regards to how this world should work.


You're completely mistaken. DA2 is a game. Difficulty is a setting in that game, AND NOTHING MORE. No one is going to ridicule you for being a baby if you choose to play on Casual, and if they do, they're not worth paying attention to, anyway.

Friendly Fire is one of the set of pre-coded variables that run in Nightmare. Increased enemy HP and Resistances and Damage are other variables related to that setting.

You're also mistaken if you think that enemies in DAO work under the same rules as players. They almost never have the same skill sets, their HPs vary more depending on difficulty SETTING, not character level, and they never use Spell Combos.

As for fighters needing mage support, and vice versa. Not quite true. Due to the potion mechanic of increasing drops when potions are below 4 (again, totally artificial), warriors can make do reasonably well without mage heals. More importantly, I KNOW how a 2h works in Nightmare. I've made my Fenris do it. Singlehandedly defeat many random mob encounters with nothing more than Cleave + 3 attack abilities. Ooh there's a nice little Chain Lightning CCC you can use from that STAGGER. But it's not even needed because those mobs will die to the next swing anyway. Even the BRITTLE mechanic is dubious since I rarely ever even need it aside from bosses. Warriors have very little need for a mage, the mage is a bonus. But mages on their own are damn near useless without support and someone to set up CCC's for them to use.


You mean Fenris can defeat a bunch of Normals by using four activated abilities? How interesting. Have you tried using the same number of activated abilities for a Mage? Arguably, you should consider more, since Mages generally have more activated abilities, and more mana as well.

Regarding your argument about applying personal handicap to your warrior on casual to make the mage feel superior, I would actually agree normally. I love applying personal handicaps to craft the game to my liking. But BW itself already proved they do not agree, when they completely nerfed the mage from DAO. Most other people seem to agree as well. In DAO you could just as well have said "take the difficulty to casual, that way your warrior and rogue can be useful even without the use of mage". It's almost exactly the same situation... only in DA2 I do admit the mages are far closer to balanced than the warriors and rogues were in DAO (they were totally gimped by comparison there).


If you were planning to run without Mages in DAO, then turning down the diff level is, indeed, the way to go. If you do run with Mages, then you'd have to use them in profoundly bad ways for them not to dominate combat in any setting, even if they're your NPC, and even if you underlevel them. The disparity is that great.

Mages in DA2 only seem "nerfed" in comparison because Mages in DA:O could solo the game at the highest difficulty settings without much of any actual difficulty.

Compared to that, ANY kind of balanced anything would be "nerfed."

As for the insecurity on casual thing and gaming cred. If that was a serious suggestion, then no. I openly admit to cheating and exploiting where I feel like it to craft the gaming experience I like, granted in most games I never need to, but in DA2 I do that constantly. I don't care one whit if my "rep" or whatever drops in some random stranger's eyes I don't even care about. Seems more likely to me though that you're just projecting with that suggestion. Basically trying to say "I like Nightmare because I am skilled, better than you, and I deserve admiration. But you can't, so admit that you are inferior to me because I want gaming cred for myself." in a patronizing tone of voice. No?


Nope. I actually don't like playing on NIghtmare. It's too much of a grind for me, even with a party setup. I like to outfit my party based on what looks pretty, not on what's optimized, so I generally run with a pretty unoptimized party.

I change the diff settings freely based on how the game feels. I started off all my playthroughs on Normal. I only moved them to Hard before the Deep Roads expeditions because I was getting bored with obliterating everything wholesale.

That includes my Mage playthrough.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 28 mars 2011 - 10:44 .


#127
Grumpy Old Wizard

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If you were planning to run without Mages in DAO, then turning down the
diff level is, indeed, the way to go. If you do run with Mages, then
you'd have to use them in profoundly bad ways for them not to dominate
combat in any setting, even if they're your NPC, and even if you
underlevel them. The disparity is that great.

Mages in DA2 only
seem "nerfed" in comparison because Mages in DA:O could solo the game at
the highest difficulty settings without much of any actual difficulty.

Compared to that, ANY kind of balanced anything would be "nerfed."


 I soloed DA:O with every class in Nightmare. I loved my two-handed Dwarf Templar/Champion. And my, oh, my how powerful dual wield rogues were.

Nah, DA2 mages have been majorly nerfed and are now the least powerful class in NM.

I change the diff settings freely based on how the game feels. I
started off all my playthroughs on Normal. I only moved them to Hard
before the Deep Roads expeditions because I was getting bored with
obliterating everything wholesale.

That includes my Mage playthrough.


Then why are you trying to tell eveyone mages are not gimped on Nightmare?

#128
Johnsen1972

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Forcemage / Spirithealer Combo is quite powerful

#129
Sylriel

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Graunt wrote...


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Dude,

I am calling BS on this.  It never happened because it is not on video to satisfy Grumpy's video fetish.  So you are nothing but a fanboi (whatever that is in proper english)!

#130
PPF65

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Just want to get in on this and say that DA2 mages are definately too weak offensively.

And why, of all spells, is fireball gimped?!?!? It is quite possibly the most iconic spell in the history of fantasy games!!! D&D mages are rolling in their collective graves!

#131
Roxlimn

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Grumpy Old Wizard:

I soloed DA:O with every class in Nightmare. I loved my two-handed Dwarf Templar/Champion. And my, oh, my how powerful dual wield rogues were.

Nah, DA2 mages have been majorly nerfed and are now the least powerful class in NM.


You don't know enough about the game to be able to say that.

Then why are you trying to tell eveyone mages are not gimped on Nightmare?


I don't prefer to play on Nightmare. That doesn't mean I haven't played on that setting. Mages aren't gimped on NM, but they do have to be built and played a certain way - just like Fighters.

A Templar/Berserker Fighter without Cleave or Barrage is practically useless on Nightmare. Have you seen how little damage Scythe does without the activated buffs?

#132
Roxlimn

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PPF65 wrote...

Just want to get in on this and say that DA2 mages are definately too weak offensively.

And why, of all spells, is fireball gimped?!?!? It is quite possibly the most iconic spell in the history of fantasy games!!! D&D mages are rolling in their collective graves!


Apparently, you haven't seen the 4e Fireball.

#133
Gloxgasm

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Fireball not killing dragon 1 hit. Mages are gimped!

#134
Jman5

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The biggest DPSer in my squad is always from whichever class Hawke is. This is true with my Warriors, rogues and mages. The only point in the game where there is competition is in the first few levels before you can get a decent weapon.

If this isn't happening for you then you are either purposefully building him as a support/CC character, or you are doing something incredibly wrong.

#135
Fa1nT

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Gloxgasm wrote...

Fireball not killing dragon 1 hit. Mages are gimped!


Assasinate 1-shooting elites.

Rogues are OP

#136
Sidney

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Mages don't so much feel gimped as part of the team. My Warden Mage was basically pulling a Revan from KOTOR where he walked into the room and killed everything in sight and everyone else was just along to sweep up the ashes.

That wasn't a great feeling.

My mages doesn't feel as overwhelmingly powerful now but with Force Mage + Elemental I feel plenty not-gimped.

#137
Gloxgasm

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Fa1nT wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

Fireball not killing dragon 1 hit. Mages are gimped!


Assasinate 1-shooting elites.

Rogues are OP


Walking bomb 1 shotting infinite stacked targets.
Nerf Mages!

#138
Tainan7509

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I agree, It took me one play through to realize CCC and then 2 more play through to actually learn to use it in the right way. TBH, i don't like this combat style because once you know how to use CCC then everything kinda become so easy. If you don't get it, you are pretty much gonna suffer to the end. It is just my opinion, maybe i'm not a hard core gamer. Story is more important to me rather than combat system. Btw, if you set the right tactic, yo pretty much just need to watch your hp and mana bar for the entire team. that's it

#139
Maria Caliban

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Mages suck.

#140
snackrat

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They nerfed mages to make up for being overpowered in DAO. However, because of their obsession with making the game longer by swarming you with numerous enemies (my ONLY DA2 pet peeve!) greatsword-wielding warriors are gamebreaking instead. Bioware just can't get it right! Hopefully someone will mod them to bring them more in balance.

#141
Mugnir

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I'm going to try a different mage style playthrough next that focuses on basic bloodmagic spec/gear and just an absolute slew of offensive spells to see if it feels different (and going for quantity over upgrading one tree to the teeth). My other blood mage play throughs felt very powerful but too much staff attack spamming; I had hemo, fist of the maker, and CL for stagger and stonefist for disorient, but so much staff attacking made it rather boring.

Maybe just a bigger unupgraded arsenal of spells will do the trick for me.

#142
Sidney

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Mugnir wrote...

I'm going to try a different mage style playthrough next that focuses on basic bloodmagic spec/gear and just an absolute slew of offensive spells to see if it feels different (and going for quantity over upgrading one tree to the teeth). My other blood mage play throughs felt very powerful but too much staff attack spamming; I had hemo, fist of the maker, and CL for stagger and stonefist for disorient, but so much staff attacking made it rather boring.

Maybe just a bigger unupgraded arsenal of spells will do the trick for me.


A broader set of spells allows you to be constantly on the attack. I went deep into two webs and then went and got the attack spells from a few other trees so I would usually we bale to cycle my attack spells and then loop back.

I didn't feel like I bled out mana as fast in DA2 as in DAO so I rarely was doing the staff spam after about level 10.

#143
Nooneyouknow13

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I prefer my mage on Nightmare over my 2 handed warrior on the same. Heresy I know, but hear me out - mages aren't that much worse at raw damage than 2 hand warriors are, and allow you much better party flexibility. As a 2 hand warrior, you're almost required to use 3 ranged, because if any of your character so much as takes a tiny step to close to you, your mighty blow hits them for 2k+. Same issue with Whirlwind and Scythe. In fact, a party rogue being in range for more than 3 auto attacks is down as well. All of this versus the Primal tree, which doesn't friendly fire at all, and still does immense damage to the battlefield. My 2 hand warrior would have been a lot more fun if Giant's Reach wasn't required for Whirlwind.

If there's anything causing an exaggerated gap between warriors and mages, it's Cleave. +100% damage with a 75% up time is a bit on the silly side. Replace Cleave with a passive 40% chance to stagger, and almost all of this crying would vanish.

#144
Roxlimn

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Removing Cleave would kill Fighter damage something awful.

#145
Nooneyouknow13

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No, it would simply make Reaver even more mandatory. Warrior damage ends up as high as it does because of stacked multipliers. Honestly, damage could stand to come down to 1/100th of what it is and enemies reduced to player HP numbers. Would make warrior friendly fire a lot less stupid.

Edit: Actually, it would destroy S&B damage, but not 2 hand.

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 29 mars 2011 - 05:28 .


#146
RPJer001

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I had not started my mage playthrough when this thread first popped up and I took the OP and others on his/her side at their word that mages were not uber damage dealers.

By level 6 of my mage play through, I know they are fine as is. At level 6, my mage was out damaging anyone else in my party (Varric, Aveline and Carver). I was surprised to see my staff attacks hitting for about 22% more than Carver's auto attacks (using Harden's Razor -- spelling?)--always carry multiple staffs so you can apply the right elemental damage type to the right enemies.

A few levels later, I still think that my mage does a lot of damage but probably is no longer the clear damage leader in the group. The other party members are now getting buffs which does not help the mage's damage output. Still, the mage contributes her share of the party's damage output, it is just spread out over more enemies and in smaller bites than what the other party members can how dish out.

#147
RPGamer13

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Play more Japanese style RPGs where mages are largely Underpowered. That's more true for the older ones than the newer ones.

I only say that because that is where I get my loath of mages.

Now in Dragon Age II it's actually fun (shocking for me)

Playing a throwaway save as a mage on Hard and it's very satisfying, I got slaughtered as a Archer Rogue on the difficulty. Might be because I kept Sophia Dryden alive so she dropped a Mage robe that's more powerful than any other robe in Act 1 and it looks good too.

I also get up close with Haste and Rock Armor.

#148
Roxlimn

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RPGamer13 wrote...

Play more Japanese style RPGs where mages are largely Underpowered. That's more true for the older ones than the newer ones.

I only say that because that is where I get my loath of mages.

Now in Dragon Age II it's actually fun (shocking for me)

Playing a throwaway save as a mage on Hard and it's very satisfying, I got slaughtered as a Archer Rogue on the difficulty. Might be because I kept Sophia Dryden alive so she dropped a Mage robe that's more powerful than any other robe in Act 1 and it looks good too.

I also get up close with Haste and Rock Armor.


Mages in JRPGs are true support characters - largely incapable of doing anything on their own.  DA:O Mages are gods - unbalanced and uber-powerful on any setting.  DA2 Mages are reasonable designs, but still on the powerful side, since they can both nuke and support at the same time.

#149
Graunt

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RPJer001 wrote...
A few levels later, I still think that my mage does a lot of damage but probably is no longer the clear damage leader in the group. The other party members are now getting buffs which does not help the mage's damage output.


Not sure what you mean by this, other than class specific skills. Something like Valiant Aura, does actually increase spell damage.  Getting abilities that cause a Stagger or Disorient also improve Mage damage unless you're heavily invested into the Elemental tree.