64 réponses à ce sujet

[Serpieri Nei]

DA2 characters are not complex or even three dimensional. They are carbon copies of character concepts that have been around since the invention of RPG’s. What makes the characters great is how they interact/unfold during the story which is very weak in DA2.

DA2 Characters showing a wide range of emotions? Does constantly complaining how bad their life is, how emotional they are, or how difficult it is to live in one shadow now consist as levels of degree? Sorry, but there is no growth in any of these characters and learning very little of them does not help in the area of feeling attachment to them.

Sadly, it’s easy to understand what you are trying to accomplish here. However, it doesn’t change the fact that DA:O is a far greater game then DA2.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 27 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[Meathooks333]

I think a lot of people that believe the characters in DA:O are more developed, think this way based solely on how much dialogue you had to go through to find out about them. Conversation doesn't make character development, at least not in the sense that it occurs in DA:O. By that I mean sitting around a camp fire chatting it up with your buds. In DA2 a character is developed more through action than us being told "This is what happened to me in the past and these are the things I feel." That's not to say that characters in DA:O are less developed. You could go through the game without the camp dialogue and enjoy it just as much, if not more so by doing away with chasing after approval rating,s by saying things just to get on their good side.

Whoever put up that link about tropes not being bad, thank you! So often on forums people use tropes as a counter point when an OP thinks characters have depth. Originality and depth aren't one in the same.

[Akron1983]

All characters ever made can pretty much be fitted into a stereotype. Theres just no way of getting around this. However, what you do is that you give the characters strengths, flaws and quirks to differentiate them from the rest of the crowd.

If Bioware succedes with this, well thats a matter of opinion.

[galian77]

What's wrong with tropes/cliches? It doesn't mean there won't be an interesting story or an interesting character built because of it, as long as the story/character is done well. It's hard to make anything original anymore. I used to think cliche automatically equals bad or boring, but that is far from the case. It's only a problem when tropes and cliches are executed poorly, as they so often are.

That said, though I really did like both DA2 and Origins' casts, both games did some things right, and some things that could have been improved. I liked that the characters in DA2 had lives of their own (Ie Isabela and Fenris hooking up if neither of them are in love with you), and in that sense, they seemed more like real people to me. It was always nice that you got to know them throughout the entirety of the game. However, with that said, I didn't feel particularly close to any of them, since I didn't get to spend much time just talking to them and getting to know them, as I would with people IRL. The only person I felt close-ish to was Anders because I romanced him. Even though I had Fenris and Isabela in my party the entire game (minus the times where you had to bring other companions along for certain quests) and did all their companion quests, talked to them whenever I could, I still felt like I didn't know much about them by the end of the game.

I do like what they did with the romances, though, it seemed like there was more attention paid to the details, like getting a kiss at the end of the game, or having your LI come visit you after your mom died. That said, I still miss what you could do in Origins (getting to kiss or bed them, just whenever ) But that's a discussion for another time.

Even though Origins involved sloughing through tons of dialogue options to get to know someone, I kind of appreciated that. Even though I had pretty much the same party through the entire game, I still felt like I knew all of the companions, their past, about them, how they got to that point in the game.

In short, it seemed like Bioware "improved" on the companion/romance system in DA2, and took a few steps backward (like not letting you talk to companions whenever you want), but they didn't keep the good parts of what made Origins' companions good/memorable. A nice mesh of the two systems, romances and companion interactions both, would have been perfect, I think.

Modifié par galian77, 27 mars 2011 - 07:50 .

[SexBomb]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

What makes the characters great is how they interact/unfold during the story which is very weak in DA2.

I think you pretty much nailed it, here.

[txgoldrush]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

DA2 characters are not complex or even three dimensional. They are carbon copies of character concepts that have been around since the invention of RPG’s. What makes the characters great is how they interact/unfold during the story which is very weak in DA2.

DA2 Characters showing a wide range of emotions? Does constantly complaining how bad their life is, how emotional they are, or how difficult it is to live in one shadow now consist as levels of degree? Sorry, but there is no growth in any of these characters and learning very little of them does not help in the area of feeling attachment to them.

Sadly, it’s easy to understand what you are trying to accomplish here. However, it doesn’t change the fact that DA:O is a far greater game then DA2.

So Aveline doesn't grow? So Bethany and Carver don't grow? Varric? Merrill? Isabela? Even Fenris? Wow

In fact, the player has far more influence in the growth of DAII characters than they ever did in DAO. The only character that doesn't grow for good reason is Anders.

And the "Investigate" option during their quests goes a long way in knowing them.

[txgoldrush]

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

What makes the characters great is how they interact/unfold during the story which is very weak in DA2.

I think you pretty much nailed it, here.

which is what DAII characters do...far better than the Origins cast.

and no, I put DAII's plot up there with NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, its good.

[Corwyn]

Suron wrote...

DA2's characters don't even have HALF the depth of DA:O's.

DA2's romances don't go near as deep or are near as heartfelt as the ones in DA:O...

now that doesn't mean one may not still PREFER the characters in DA2 over the ones in DA:O...but that doesn't change facts.

DA2's characters are no where near as developed.

I like how you present your opinion about the characters as facts.  Sorry to break it to you but which romance you felt was the most "heartfelt" is an opinion not a fact.

Same for thing for "depth and development". Actual word count for dialogue is equal or greater for all DA2 characters with the exception of Aliaster and Morrigan both of whom talk a lot about the plot early on when they're all you have.   

Personally I thought DA2's characters seemed to have more personality because they interacted a lot more with each other and you got to seem them change over time more then you did in DAO.  That's not say I think DA2's characters were better I have fond memories of both game's characters.

[Merced652]

txgoldrush wrote...

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

What makes the characters great is how they interact/unfold during the story which is very weak in DA2.

I think you pretty much nailed it, here.

which is what DAII characters do...far better than the Origins cast.

and no, I put DAII's plot up there with NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, its good.

Ha hahaha... good one... Wait you're serious? 

[Big_Chief]

Macgarnickle wrote...

Suron wrote...

DA2's characters don't even have HALF the depth of DA:O's.

DA2's romances don't go near as deep or are near as heartfelt as the ones in DA:O...

now that doesn't mean one may not still PREFER the characters in DA2 over the ones in DA:O...but that doesn't change facts.

DA2's characters are no where near as developed.

I like how you present your opinion about the characters as facts.  Sorry to break it to you but which romance you felt was the most "heartfelt" is an opinion not a fact.

Same for thing for "depth and development". Actual word count for dialogue is equal or greater for all DA2 characters with the exception of Aliaster and Morrigan both of whom talk a lot about the plot early on when they're all you have.   

Personally I thought DA2's characters seemed to have more personality because they interacted a lot more with each other and you got to seem them change over time more then you did in DAO.  That's not say I think DA2's characters were better I have fond memories of both game's characters.

I agree, those are perfectly valid opinions, but ultimately they ARE just opinions. Which characters are deeper/more heartfelt will vary depending on the person. I personally found the characters from DA2 more interesting and relatable. As a result, I connected to them more. And I too apreciated seeing how the characters interacted with each other, it cast them in a new light.

Although I will say that it felt like the companions could have used one or two more conversations each.

[Corwyn]

Big_Chief wrote...



Although I will say that it felt like the companions could have used one or two more conversations each.

I agree but then I always want a little more conversation with companions I like.

[txgoldrush]

Merced652 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

What makes the characters great is how they interact/unfold during the story which is very weak in DA2.

I think you pretty much nailed it, here.

which is what DAII characters do...far better than the Origins cast.

and no, I put DAII's plot up there with NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, its good.

Ha hahaha... good one... Wait you're serious? 

yep, its that good...stronger characters, good direction, more relevant plot, more original plot....

Of all the Bioware casts, DAO's cast is the most meaningless when it comes to involvement in the story. Only Allister and Morrigan truly matter....KOTOR's cast was more involved, Jade Empires cast, everyone was involved, same with Mass Effect 1, in Mass Effect 2 the characters ARE the plot. Not so in DAO.

[Merced652]

Disingenuity, how i love thee.

[Kingthlayer]

Volourn wrote...

Varric > Oghren is enought o prove the claim that DA2 characters are superior to DA1 characters. The game with the better dwarf is always better.

Pretty much this.  Though Origins did have Shale, two dwarves is better than one.  But the lameness of Alistair brings down the score of the Origins party far below that of DA2.  Now if you could kill Alistair off earlier in the game and bring in Loghain, it would be closer.

I wish they'd bring back Sigrun or some other Dwarven female companion.

[txgoldrush]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Volourn wrote...

Varric > Oghren is enought o prove the claim that DA2 characters are superior to DA1 characters. The game with the better dwarf is always better.

Pretty much this.  Though Origins did have Shale, two dwarves is better than one.  But the lameness of Alistair brings down the score of the Origins party far below that of DA2.  Now if you could kill Alistair off earlier in the game and bring in Loghain, it would be closer.

I wish they'd bring back Sigrun or some other Dwarven female companion.

Sigun is one of the most underrated characters Bioware has ever created. I really hope they bring her back, although, if they use Charade as a future party member, that'd be too many rogues.