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[TGFKAMAdmaX]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The Warden is more important than Hawke to Thedas.

The Warden:

- determined the king of Orzammar
- determined the ruler of Fereldan
- determined the fate of the Urn of Sacred Ashes, the Chantry version of the Grail
- determined the fate of the Anvil of the Void, the dwarf version of  the Grail
- (potentially) defeated the Mother and the Children
- (potentially) determined the fate of the Architect and the Disciples
- (potentially) provided a test case for Wardens holding political power outside the Anderfels
- (potentially) uncovered the research and determined the fate of Avernus
- (potentially) uncovered the lost thaig of Amgarrak
- was granted a boon with far reaching consequences by the ruler of Fereldan
- defeated the Archdemon and ended the Fifth Blight
- (potentially) caused the spirit of the Old God Urthemiel to be reborn in human form


Hawke;

- protected the life of Flemeth from Morrigan
- went farther into the Deep Roads than anyone felt possible
- (potentially) earned the respect of the Arishok, who he then (potentially) killed
- (potentially) helped determine the fate of the Tome of Koslun, the qunari version of the Grail
- was friends with the guy who sparked the templar and Circle revolts
- (potentially) became Viscout of a city-state in the Free Marches

that is a very bad point to try and make when you are allowing dlc choices to be considered when no dlc has been released for da2. and choices for choices sake are crap. if you cant see the ramifications it means nothing.

[Persephone]

Well, as Varric states, due to Hawke's involvement in the events that happened:

All circles rebelled
The templars rebelled
The Chantry is on the edge of ruin

These are events concerning all of Thedas immensely, no?

As for all of it happening without Hawke anyway:

Anders would not have had the protection of the friendship of the Champion (Meredith refers to that) & have been made tranquil for being a troublemaker apostate (So no blown up Chantry)
Bartrand's expedition would have been either delayed or cut short by the cave in & too dangerous side passages. So no idol.

Etc.

[Foolsfolly]

But yes, to be serious, I agree the events of DA2 - the mage-templar war - seems more important, because those events involve all of Thedas, while the Blight really only touched Ferelden. So I see your point there.

What I disagree with is Hawke's importance to those events. Hawke didn't start the war, didn't pevent the war, was simply there when it started.

But the Blight would have spread to the entire world had the Warden not stopped it. He prevented a worldwide war with the Blight.

I also take issue over the Kirkwall battle at the end of the game setting off a worldwide war. How? The Mages in Kirkwall were corrupt and Meredith was lyrium addled and then a super powered crazy woman.

In DA:O you can have Gregoir annul the whole Circle but that didn't start a war. It was all because Uldred corrupted the Circle and forced mages into being abominations. Abominations, regardless on your choice of who to support, are all over the final mission in DA2. They're everywhere, as are demons.

The situations are very similar except the mages also blew up the Chantry and killed untold innocents before the Templar put them down.

And people in other Circles are going to look at this and rebel? What?

And if you support the mages there's even less of a reason for the revolution to continue! Orsino's dead, countless blood mages and abominations that were hiding in the Circle are dead, and Meredith is dead. Cullen's likely the next Knight-Commander and he's very not unreasonable, as his true colors show in the finale.

Now things can get better inside the Circle and the mages don't have Meredith breathing down their backs.

And yet that's going to inspire revolution in completely different Circles around Thedas?

The whole thing is contrived. It makes no sense. There could have been a way to have Hawke start a Templar/Mage war that spreads throughout Thedas but this game does not give us anything resembling that.

Things just happen. And you just don't understand that this is a more personal story if you disagree with the logic of the events.

[Kingthlayer]

Aloradus wrote...

Capeo wrote...

This.  God, I'm so sick of people here claiming DAO or ME had such meaningful choices when they didn't at all.  All the choices are window dressing that don't effect the actual story at all.  They just effect who is in your party, a few cutscenes and a titlecard at the end of the game.  DA2 has just as many "meaningful" choices as DAO in that there are no truly meaningful choices at all as far as the main plot plays out.  The only recent game that had any meaningful choices that truly effected the game and how the story played out was Fallout: New Vegas.

In your mind its fluff- okay everyone is entitled to their opinion. To me I am not sure how deciding the actual fate of groups of people and companions is fluff.   Sure in the end we have to kill the Arc Daemon, but the player IS the key instrument in what happens on the way (even if you do not get to choose the events that force you places at least you have SOME choices and a feeling of involvement lol)  Did you feel DA:O could have finished without your character? Now how about Kirkwall, seems it would have happened without Hawke (Anders would have had such a hard time finding someone else to distract the grand cleric.. and Meredith certainly could have killed the Qunari)

Origins isn’t an original tale by any means but it was executed better, DA:2 trips all over the place.  DA:2 would have worked far better if your character was actually involved in the plot to overthrow the chantry, or at least free the Mages in Kirkwall - why not make that his goal.  Then Anders crosses you and takes it to far…

Honestly yes I felt DA:O could have finished with out our Warden.  Riordin said that plenty of Orlesian Grey Wardens were ready to fight the Blight but once they were turned back from the border they didn't want to get involved in political bull****.  Once Ferelden fell the Orlesians would have swooped in and finished the Blight.  I wish there was an option in the Landsmeet to just walk out and let the cry baby humans solve their own problem. 

[Persephone]

Foolsfolly wrote...

But yes, to be serious, I agree the events of DA2 - the mage-templar war - seems more important, because those events involve all of Thedas, while the Blight really only touched Ferelden. So I see your point there.

What I disagree with is Hawke's importance to those events. Hawke didn't start the war, didn't pevent the war, was simply there when it started.

I also take issue over the Kirkwall battle at the end of the game setting off a worldwide war. How? The Mages in Kirkwall were corrupt and Meredith was lyrium addled and then a super powered crazy woman.

In DA:O you can have Gregoir annul the whole Circle but that didn't start a war. It was all because Uldred corrupted the Circle and forced mages into being abominations. Abominations, regardless on your choice of who to support, are all over the final mission in DA2. They're everywhere, as are demons.

The situations are very similar except the mages also blew up the Chantry and killed untold innocents before the Templar put them down..

A mage blowing up the Chantry and killing a Grand Cleric (Even the Divine in Orlais was worried there) will not be ignored. The mages will rally around that to be free and the Templars and Chantries will retaliate. --> An act or terrorism leading to open war. Not implausible at all.

[Foolsfolly]

But Anders is likely dead or will soon be dead. He was responsible and the corrupt Kirkwall Circle was annulled or back to some state of normalcy. (Kirkwall is not representative of all Circles in Thedas, the Mage Warden origin shows that there are peaceful Circles where Templars aren't ****s and every mage isn't some cackling evil wizard cliche)

Yes, bad things happened in Kirkwall. But I'm really supposed to believe that Circles in Rivain are going to care about what happened in a backwood like Kirkwall? It's a one pony town that happened to have a corrupt Circle. The Circle in nearby Starkhaven's not corrupted and mages there haven't blown anyone up?

It's really the story of one town and yet where's supposed to believe that it causes a great war. I get the feeling this is supposed to be a parallel to Archduke Franz Ferdinand's assassination leading to World War 1.

The difference is there were multiple causes for WW1, Ferdinand's death just got multiple peace treaties called in and formed two groups to defend either side. Another important factor in WW1 was the arms race between England and Germany. Or the fact that angry over the Balkan Wars was still high. Ferdinand was an honest catalyst as there were many reasons and long held hatreds at play and his death allowed the war to happen.

This was nothing compared to that. Sure there's some mage/templar hatred but do you really think non-mages around Thedas are going to side with the mages? The Templars in Kirkwall were in their right. The Circle was corrupt and a mage did an act of terrorism. The Templars are the heroes of that story to average man.

The mages would be foolish to rise up against the Templars after this event. They'll have no public support. Every person in every nation would be against them, it's a fight they cannot win. Some rational First Enchanters and mages would have to exist somewhere and refuse to join in this battle.

Even more baffling is why the Templars would leave the Chantry to hunt mages. Why would they leave the Chantry? The game doesn't even come close to answering that question. All we get is a token "So they can hunt mages" that's their job with the Chantry anyway!

[TJPags]

Foolsfolly wrote...

But yes, to be serious, I agree the events of DA2 - the mage-templar war - seems more important, because those events involve all of Thedas, while the Blight really only touched Ferelden. So I see your point there.

What I disagree with is Hawke's importance to those events. Hawke didn't start the war, didn't pevent the war, was simply there when it started.

But the Blight would have spread to the entire world had the Warden not stopped it. He prevented a worldwide war with the Blight.

I also take issue over the Kirkwall battle at the end of the game setting off a worldwide war. How? The Mages in Kirkwall were corrupt and Meredith was lyrium addled and then a super powered crazy woman.

In DA:O you can have Gregoir annul the whole Circle but that didn't start a war. It was all because Uldred corrupted the Circle and forced mages into being abominations. Abominations, regardless on your choice of who to support, are all over the final mission in DA2. They're everywhere, as are demons.

The situations are very similar except the mages also blew up the Chantry and killed untold innocents before the Templar put them down.

And people in other Circles are going to look at this and rebel? What?

And if you support the mages there's even less of a reason for the revolution to continue! Orsino's dead, countless blood mages and abominations that were hiding in the Circle are dead, and Meredith is dead. Cullen's likely the next Knight-Commander and he's very not unreasonable, as his true colors show in the finale.

Now things can get better inside the Circle and the mages don't have Meredith breathing down their backs.

And yet that's going to inspire revolution in completely different Circles around Thedas?

The whole thing is contrived. It makes no sense. There could have been a way to have Hawke start a Templar/Mage war that spreads throughout Thedas but this game does not give us anything resembling that.

Things just happen. And you just don't understand that this is a more personal story if you disagree with the logic of the events.

Well, the Kirkwall battle DID set off a worldwide mage rebellion.  WE know that because we're told that.  We don't know how or why other Circles rebelled, or why they all did so at once.  We can speculate, sure, but we don't know.  What we DO know is that it happened.

And its implied that it was the events in Kirkwall which were the cause of it - the Kirkwall Circle being the first to rebel, I guess.  But the subsequent rebellions happen whether Hawke fights for the mages, or fights for the Templars.  In fact, at the end of the game having sided with the mages, Hawke is surrounded by Templars led by Cullen after killing Meredith.  Cullen lets Hawke walk away with the companions.  I didn't see any mages leaving, though.  So arguably, it seems the mages may well be wiped out/locked up again even if Hawke fought with them.

And the whole thing came to a head because Anders blew up the Chantry.  Not because of anything Hawke did, since Anders blows up the Chantry even if you don't help him make or plant the bomb!!!
 
Hawke caused nothing.  Hawke was an influential person there when it started, and Cass THOUGHT Hawke started it.  She learned otherwise, as she admits to Varric.

[Foolsfolly]

Well, the Kirkwall battle DID set off a worldwide mage rebellion. WE know that because we're told that. We don't know how or why other Circles rebelled, or why they all did so at once. We can speculate, sure, but we don't know. What we DO know is that it happened.

But it makes no sense! The events in the finale have nothing to do with that result. It's like the game showed you a simple math problem: 10 + 9.

And then Varric said that's how it equaled 109.

It doesn't make sense that the Meredith/Orsino grudge match with Anders blowing up a Chantry would cause a worldwide war whereas Uldred/Gregoir/Irving did not. The Rite of Annulment has been used multiple times without a worldwide revolt. Why is it different here? If anything Anders blowing away countless innocents underscores the fact that the Rite was necessary in this case.

And because the game does not offer a reason why it was different here other than the plot said it was it feels artificial.

And again, Hawke's importance to these events is nowhere to be seen. Why does the Seeker need Hawke to smooth things over? Why would either side listen to Hawke now if it's spread out of Kirkwall. Are the people of Orlais really going to care if this Champion of another country (and only one city-state of that country) tells them something?

[Medhia Nox]

Some people think that they went through all this trouble to create a mythology of Andraste - and a storyline about Circle mages - just to throw it away in their next expansion or third game.

Varric states clearly what the "next chapter" will be - Hawke is going to put the Chantry back together.

Bioware is going to make you do it (and it makes sense to me). They're going to say that despite what you "want" - the Chantry collapsing will only lead to the ending of society. If the Chantry falls - the Qunari will come, and if you think it's bad under the Chantry, wait until the Qunari get hold of Thedas' mages.

Sorry gang - even the rebel mages with a hard on for terrorism are going to end up putting the Chantry back. What "changes" might be different (I doubt it). Bioware is "telling" you a lesson... they're not interesting in anyone's opinions about it.

[TJPags]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Well, the Kirkwall battle DID set off a worldwide mage rebellion. WE know that because we're told that. We don't know how or why other Circles rebelled, or why they all did so at once. We can speculate, sure, but we don't know. What we DO know is that it happened.

But it makes no sense! The events in the finale have nothing to do with that result. It's like the game showed you a simple math problem: 10 + 9.

And then Varric said that's how it equaled 109.

It doesn't make sense that the Meredith/Orsino grudge match with Anders blowing up a Chantry would cause a worldwide war whereas Uldred/Gregoir/Irving did not. The Rite of Annulment has been used multiple times without a worldwide revolt. Why is it different here? If anything Anders blowing away countless innocents underscores the fact that the Rite was necessary in this case.

And because the game does not offer a reason why it was different here other than the plot said it was it feels artificial.

And again, Hawke's importance to these events is nowhere to be seen. Why does the Seeker need Hawke to smooth things over? Why would either side listen to Hawke now if it's spread out of Kirkwall. Are the people of Orlais really going to care if this Champion of another country (and only one city-state of that country) tells them something?

I don't dispute a single thing you said.  I don't understand how that fight led to worldwide rebellion either.  I can speculate, of course, but I don't know.

As to Hawke, Cass clearly thought that Hawke came ot Kirkwall with some kind of agenda to cause this - she states that to Varric.  Someone else, somewhere, described it as "the legend of Hawke", and it's a good way of stating it.  Legends probably don't often match the truth.  Hawke was famous, Hawke had influence, Hawke was a known associate of all these people involved in the events, ergo people think Hawke was behind them, and invent/fabricate connections.  Cass learns the truth, through Varric - and I still claim that this truth is that Hawke did not cause this to happen.

So at the end, the only reason people may listen to Hawke is if they believe he/she was instrumental in bringing it about, a falsehood which nobody knows the truth about, except a select few like Varric, Cass, and those who - like you and me - played the game.

[Foolsfolly]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Some people think that they went through all this trouble to create a mythology of Andraste - and a storyline about Circle mages - just to throw it away in their next expansion or third game.

Varric states clearly what the "next chapter" will be - Hawke is going to put the Chantry back together.

Bioware is going to make you do it (and it makes sense to me). They're going to say that despite what you "want" - the Chantry collapsing will only lead to the ending of society. If the Chantry falls - the Qunari will come, and if you think it's bad under the Chantry, wait until the Qunari get hold of Thedas' mages.

Sorry gang - even the rebel mages with a hard on for terrorism are going to end up putting the Chantry back. What "changes" might be different (I doubt it). Bioware is "telling" you a lesson... they're not interesting in anyone's opinions about it.

Then what's the point of the revolution storyline?

Why not just have us play an Orlaisan character who leads a war to retake Ferelden instead? We'd feel terrible about it, there'd be more of a human connection, and the scale of the story would be larger than one town. The ramifcations of the war would be up to the player/BioWare and there'd still be more stories to tell in the universe.

Breaking the Chantry and rebuilding it is a zero sum story. Status quo is back before it's missed.

I really do not think we're rebuilding the Chantry. Maybe a Dragon Age Age of Reason is about to break.

[Foolsfolly]

@TJPags:

I can totally agree with you.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Some people think that they went through all this trouble to create a mythology of Andraste - and a storyline about Circle mages - just to throw it away in their next expansion or third game.

Varric states clearly what the "next chapter" will be - Hawke is going to put the Chantry back together.

Bioware is going to make you do it (and it makes sense to me). They're going to say that despite what you "want" - the Chantry collapsing will only lead to the ending of society. If the Chantry falls - the Qunari will come, and if you think it's bad under the Chantry, wait until the Qunari get hold of Thedas' mages.

Sorry gang - even the rebel mages with a hard on for terrorism are going to end up putting the Chantry back. What "changes" might be different (I doubt it). Bioware is "telling" you a lesson... they're not interesting in anyone's opinions about it.

Now I'm imagining playing Hawke as a reluctant, accidental Martin Luther, complete with the haircut...

[5ubzer0]

Myounage wrote...

After taking ten years to resurrect Flemeth and save a city from siege and indirectly causing a war? Haha ... lol. Isn't that bit ... forced? The Warden did a hell of a lot more than that in a single year and this guy's suppose to be more  important? Lol writing fail.

Well, it's not about what Hawke really did, but about public perception. Once Varric is done embellishing the Champion's story she will have single-handedly killed an army of dragons/golems/templars and then rode away on her griffon into the sunset. On top of that Hawke is a human noble. What could be more glamorous?

While the Warden clearly worked very hard, where's the fame? Hawke gets a statue erected in her honor, an estate, half a mine, people of interest try carefully to appease her. The Hero of Ferelden, however, is nothing without the Grey Wardens. Strip that title away and what will be left? An apostate, city/dalish elf/dwarf (probably broke) no one cares about. Unless you are nobility, of course. Then you are as marketable as Hawke.

I think the limitations of your status became quite clear, when you tried to marry Alistair as anything but a human noble. In short, you are free to sacrifice your life for Ferelden, but don't you dare forget your place in the world. So yes, I can see why in an oppressive society Hawke's story will be considered more important.

[Nerevar-as]

So Hawke is a fake ultimate hero?

[Foolsfolly]

Nerevar-as wrote...

So Hawke is a fake ultimate hero?

Yep.

Or we can take that ultimate cheap way out and say Varric lied and Hawke's the one who actually blew up the Chantry.

[Aldandil]

5ubzer0 wrote...

Myounage wrote...

After taking ten years to resurrect Flemeth and save a city from siege and indirectly causing a war? Haha ... lol. Isn't that bit ... forced? The Warden did a hell of a lot more than that in a single year and this guy's suppose to be more  important? Lol writing fail.

Well, it's not about what Hawke really did, but about public perception. Once Varric is done embellishing the Champion's story she will have single-handedly killed an army of dragons/golems/templars and then rode away on her griffon into the sunset. On top of that Hawke is a human noble. What could be more glamorous?

While the Warden clearly worked very hard, where's the fame? Hawke gets a statue erected in her honor, an estate, half a mine, people of interest try carefully to appease her. The Hero of Ferelden, however, is nothing without the Grey Wardens. Strip that title away and what will be left? An apostate, city/dalish elf/dwarf (probably broke) no one cares about. Unless you are nobility, of course. Then you are as marketable as Hawke.

I think the limitations of your status became quite clear, when you tried to marry Alistair as anything but a human noble. In short, you are free to sacrifice your life for Ferelden, but don't you dare forget your place in the world. So yes, I can see why in an oppressive society Hawke's story will be considered more important.

Also keep in mind that if everyone believes you are the lynch pin for solving a continent wide conflict, you are in all likelihood more important than someone who preserved the status quo a decade ago.

By the way, the Warden did get rewards and recognition (being made Paragon, for instance).

[Kelgair]

Hey look version 362 of the same thread started 2 weeks ago.

[Foolsfolly]

Kelgair wrote...

Hey look version 362 of the same thread started 2 weeks ago.

I wonder if that means this is a big problem to the game or not.

...hmm....maybe we'll play a barber in Orlais in the next game. He rises from barber to barber of the Emperess and while he runs around returning pants to NPCs and helping his companions solve all their problems as if they can't do it themselves they'll allude to a larger threat out there somewhere. Even that mustached Warden will appear at one point and say, "Hey, I'm totally the main character in this epic story that's having me traval all over Thedas. It's epic but also top secret. Cut my hair, please, so I can go back to saving the world."

And then at the end DA3 the barber's whole family is killed and he walks away without a word, because then there can be DLC about how he renews his barber's license.

[Deztyn]

Foolsfolly wrote...


It doesn't make sense that the Meredith/Orsino grudge match with Anders blowing up a Chantry would cause a worldwide war whereas Uldred/Gregoir/Irving did not. The Rite of Annulment has been used multiple times without a worldwide revolt. Why is it different here? If anything Anders blowing away countless innocents underscores the fact that the Rite was necessary in this case.

What Anders did was big. It was a strike at the heart of Thedas' society, not just an internal circle problem. Knowledge of the chaos that happens in Kirkwall would have spread through the other Andrastian nations. Fear and hatred of mages would be turned up to eleven among the religious mundanes. The Chantry and the templars would have restricted Circle mages even more as a result. Mages would chafe at the stricter treatment and those who were already inclined to rebel, like the Libertarians, would have done so and out of fear and anger the templars would have responded with disproportionate punishments which would have caused more mages to rebel. etc. etc.

It's not too difficult to imagine the Big Boom having wide reaching effects. The part that kills me is Kirkwall was sitting on a sacrificial alter and still took years to get to the point, while we only have three to get all the other Circles to play along.

Modifié par Deztyn, 27 mars 2011 - 10:16 .

[Tainan7509]

Aradace wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

I think Dragon Age 2 was made to set up Dragon Age 3. We have Sandal's prophecy, rumors of a war between Ferelden and Orlais, a mage revolution across Thedas, Flemeth being alive, a potential Qunari invasion, and Morrigan and her (potential) Old God Baby. Heck Arl Foreshadow's note in DA:O basically said that you will go to Orlais, search for Arlathan, and deal with the Old God Baby. The story is looking really good for Dragon Age 3 and I hope they take the time they need to make it a high quality product, as DA 2 was clearly rushed. I'd totally wait longer if it meant DA 3 would be an outstanding game.

Regardless, Im still not pre-ordering it lol.

Time will tell 

[Foolsfolly]

Deztyn wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...


It doesn't make sense that the Meredith/Orsino grudge match with Anders blowing up a Chantry would cause a worldwide war whereas Uldred/Gregoir/Irving did not. The Rite of Annulment has been used multiple times without a worldwide revolt. Why is it different here? If anything Anders blowing away countless innocents underscores the fact that the Rite was necessary in this case.

What Anders did was big. It was a strike at the heart of Thedas' society, not just an internal circle problem. Knowledge of the chaos that happens in Kirkwall would have spread through the other Andrastian nations. Fear and hatred of mages would be turned up to eleven among the religious mundanes. The Chantry and the templars would have restricted Circle mages even more as a result. Mages would chafe at the stricter treatment and those who were already inclined to rebel, like the Libertarians, would have done so and out of fear and anger the templars would have responded with disproportionate punishments which would have caused more mages to rebel. etc. etc.

It's not too difficult to imagine the Big Boom having wide reaching effects. The part that kills me is Kirkwall was sitting on a sacrificial alter and still took years to get to the point, while we only have three to get all the other Circles to play along.

Then perhaps Anders should have blown up the Divine instead.

That would have caused a power vacuum in the Chantry which I could see a strong-willed Templar Knight-Commander taking control of the Templars and doing what needs to be done while the Chantry is in no shape to function.

And then the different Knight-Commanders at each Circle would treat the mages with disgust and fear, with tough tactics and Rite of Annulment fears spreading wildly in the Circles. Eventually the mages rebel since it's become apparent that the Chantry can no longer rein in the Templars.

THAT would have made sense.

[The Angry One]

The entire idea that every Circle takes this even as the signal to start a global war for freedom is completely absurd to me.
Are you telling me there's not one circle, not one First Enchanter who looks at Kirkwall and says "Okay.. many innocents were blown up by an abomination, the circle was full of abominations, demons and blood mages, it's First Enchanter turned into a Harvester.. maybe the Chantry's right!".

No they all think that's the time to rise up against their unjust oppressors. Yeah, sure.

[Icinix]

The Angry One wrote...

The entire idea that every Circle takes this even as the signal to start a global war for freedom is completely absurd to me.
Are you telling me there's not one circle, not one First Enchanter who looks at Kirkwall and says "Okay.. many innocents were blown up by an abomination, the circle was full of abominations, demons and blood mages, it's First Enchanter turned into a Harvester.. maybe the Chantry's right!".

No they all think that's the time to rise up against their unjust oppressors. Yeah, sure.

I like to think that after that incident there was a period of time where both the mages and templars are eyeing each other off EXPECTING the other to do something. In short order they were all jumping at shadows and someone in each circle or templar group pulled the trigger out of fear and it all just fell apart from there.

[Ryzaki]

Maybe Anders had a batsignal?

I dunno. XD