200 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Deztyn wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Libertarians aren't even in this game. It would have been nice to see the different fraternities of mages in the game, but I guess that'd be too hard to write.

Pfft. Fraternities in Kirkwall? DA2 has taught me Kirkwall mages only come in three flavors. Blood Mage. Abomination. Bethany.

Yep. What should have been a complex issue with several factions and ideas at play was reduced to this. 

[De_Horst]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The golem-ghost is referred to as a Rock-Wraith

No, it's not! Do Varric's act 3 quest again. It's just a ghost of a golem.

Yes it is, I did the quest 2 hours ago and some party banter called it a Rock Wraith, I was surprised myself because I hadn't noticed it in the last two playthroughs but for me it made kind of sense... If I am really wrong I am sorry but I am sure I heard something along these lines...
And to be totally correct, it's an "Etheral Golem" which doesn't need to be the ghost of a Golem but could be everything the developers want it to be...

Modifié par De_Horst, 27 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[Malevolence65]

Hopefully it means that Hawke is the main character of DA3.

[Morogrem]

Warheadz wrote...

It all depends on the sales and feedback, but I believe Hawke will be forgotten and left as a footnote for a while. They will jsut refer to him as the guy who was the catalyst, but nothing more.

I truly hope we will get a new, "origins-style" customizable character in DA3 if it ever comes.

its doubtful, da2 has already outsold dao's first month's sale after only a couple weeks, and it has a lower return rate. so buisess wise theyre probably gonna make the 3rd one be about hawke again, or theyre going to have an expansion be about the war, and then have a potential 3rd game be simmilar to 2 in terms of having voice acting.  The reason why this makes it unlikely that theyll make it so you can chose one of 3 races is because then it would be alot harder to justify having the same voice actor for the males of all 3 races and the same for the females, which is one of the reasons why they diddnt do it in the 1st game. personally I like the way they went with the character, but the way they went with the story is dreadful. having all of your major choices have little or no effect on the world, other than the big one at the end (templars/mages, which was really the only hard choice in the game) made me think of this game as not an rpg which considering it was supposed to be a hardcore rpg, kinda makes this game fail in alot of ways.

Modifié par Morogrem, 28 mars 2011 - 12:00 .

[Foolsfolly]

We never even go to the Circle.

Does that make any sense to anyone? This big mage/templar argument and war brewing and we never even step foot inside the Circle. Not even to see Bethany or visit Carver. The whole thing is played as far from the core of the story as possible.

We don't meet Meredith or Orsino until the finale of Act 2, barely get to know them, and only have the word of blood mages and apostates to tell us how it is inside the Circle.

There's none of the fraternities from Origins. The meeting Wynne's off to in Awakening has no impact on the game, despite the mages wanting to rebel from the Circle, which is the entire main plot of the game.

We spend all of act 1 doing nothing. Act 2 deals with the Qunari which again, has nothing to do with the plot. And then act 3 rolls around and who cares? These are people you don't know, in an argument we know nothing about except for heresay and Anders' hatred. And then regardless of your choice both sides are revealed to be pawns to outer forces.

And then the world is in open warfare for no discernible reason.

[Foolsfolly]

Yes it is, I did the quest 2 hours ago and some party banter called it a Rock Wraith

No it's not! The Rock Wraith banter happens after you defeat the Rock Wraith, the final boss for Act 1.

In the quest Haunted you fight an Ethereal Golem.


Now can we please move on. The Idol doesn't amply personality. It just does whatever BioWare wanted it to do at the moment. They don't describe it or limit its power. It just does things and no character in the game seems to think that's interesting enough to ask questions about it or where it was from.

[TJPags]

Foolsfolly wrote...

We never even go to the Circle.

Does that make any sense to anyone? This big mage/templar argument and war brewing and we never even step foot inside the Circle. Not even to see Bethany or visit Carver. The whole thing is played as far from the core of the story as possible.

We don't meet Meredith or Orsino until the finale of Act 2, barely get to know them, and only have the word of blood mages and apostates to tell us how it is inside the Circle.

There's none of the fraternities from Origins. The meeting Wynne's off to in Awakening has no impact on the game, despite the mages wanting to rebel from the Circle, which is the entire main plot of the game.

We spend all of act 1 doing nothing. Act 2 deals with the Qunari which again, has nothing to do with the plot. And then act 3 rolls around and who cares? These are people you don't know, in an argument we know nothing about except for heresay and Anders' hatred. And then regardless of your choice both sides are revealed to be pawns to outer forces.

And then the world is in open warfare for no discernible reason.

I agree.

Remember that if Bethany is in the Circle, she actually writes that she likes it there, the only Templar she doesn' like it Alrik - Hawke kills him.  So, we never get to investigate the mages side of it - we just keep running into lunatic blood mages on the streets.

[Malevolence65]

Foolsfolly wrote...
We spend all of act 1 doing nothing. Act 2 deals with the Qunari which again, has nothing to do with the plot. 

Act 1- Gathering money to go on the Deep Roads expedition which makes you rich enough to move up in the world (to be able to help with the Qunari conflict)

Act 2-You become Champion, which is very important because if you weren't Champion no one would listen to you in Act 3.

[TJPags]

Malevolence65 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
We spend all of act 1 doing nothing. Act 2 deals with the Qunari which again, has nothing to do with the plot. 

Act 1- Gathering money to go on the Deep Roads expedition which makes you rich enough to move up in the world (to be able to help with the Qunari conflict)

Act 2-You become Champion, which is very important because if you weren't Champion no one would listen to you in Act 3.

Wait - nobody listens to you anyway in Act 3!!!!

[just.a.dude]

TJPags wrote...
As Cassandra says to Varric in one of the cutscenes...

... she THOUGHT Hawke was the catylyst for these events, an important person who was intimately involved in making them happen.  She learns that Hawke was not - simply someone who was well known who happened to be around when they happened.

Hawke was the person who resolved the events leading up to Act 3. That is how he came to be important because without him, the Deep Roads most likely fails and the Qunari take over. 

He only picks a side in the Templar - Mage conflict. While Cassandra misconstrue his role, he does have a role to play and that is why they are looking for him.

The choices in this game are of a more personal nature in this game. In DAO the Warden decided the fate of people on a large impersonal scale. In DA2 they focus more on building Hawke as a character than changing the landscape.

Modifié par just.a.dude, 28 mars 2011 - 12:29 .

[Foolsfolly]

Malevolence65 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
We spend all of act 1 doing nothing. Act 2 deals with the Qunari which again, has nothing to do with the plot. 

Act 1- Gathering money to go on the Deep Roads expedition which makes you rich enough to move up in the world (to be able to help with the Qunari conflict)

Act 2-You become Champion, which is very important because if you weren't Champion no one would listen to you in Act 3.

I don't know. We impress the Arishok in act 1 anyway. He'd call for us even if we were still a merc/smuggler or a noble. Plus our mom's petitoning to get back the Amell estate away from squatting slavers, which I think the Viscount would do just to get rid of slavers....who may mostly be dead anyway thanks to Hawke.

And no one listens to the Champion anyway. I have no idea what the authority, if there is authority, being Champion gives us. This arugement would be different had we rose to Viscount in Act 2. Then we could butt heads with Meredith with both of us thinking we're the real power in Kirkwall.

[TJPags]

just.a.dude wrote...

TJPags wrote...
As Cassandra says to Varric in one of the cutscenes - might be the end of either Act 1 or 2, or the start of Act 3 - "that's not how I understood it to happen".  She believed Hawke had an agenda, that Hawke travelled to Kirkwall with a goal in mind, that Hawke befriended/recruited people to further that agenda, etc.  She is learning, at that point, through Varric, that it simply wasn't the case - that Hawke had no agenda other than protecting the family and building stabilty for him/her and the family.

In short, she THOUGHT Hawke was the catylyst for these events, an important person who was intimately involved in making them happen.  She learns that Hawke was not - simply someone who was well known who happened to be around when they happened.

Hawke was the person who resolved the events leading up to Act 3. That is how he came to be important. He only picks a side in the Templar - Mage conflict. While the misconsrue his rle, he does have a role to play and that is why they are looking for him.

The choices in this game are of a more personal nature in this game. In DAO the Warden decided the fate of people on a large impersonal scale. In DA2 they focus more on building Hawke as a character than changing the landscape.

Yes, Hawke resolves the Qunari incident by accident.  Hawke simply beats Meredith to the palace.  I have no doubt that between Meredith and/or Orsino, they could have gotten in.  And even if not, Arishok takes over the city, finds Isabela and/or the book, and leaves.  Problem over.

While Hawke did, in fact, solve the problem, what does it result in?  Hawke is Champion - mages and templars are still at each others throats, Anders still destroys the Chantry, Meredith and Orsino both still go nuts.

Hawke = bystander for great events who was misconstrued as important to them.

[bztang]

Persephone wrote...


Anders would not have had the protection of the friendship of the Champion (Meredith refers to that) & have been made tranquil for being a troublemaker apostate (So no blown up Chantry)
Bartrand's expedition would have been either delayed or cut short by the cave in & too dangerous side passages. So no idol.

Etc.

Except even if you tell him to GTFO after failing to prevent him from killing that girl mage, he still blows the Chantry up.

[Foolsfolly]

Hawke = bystander for great events who was misconstrued as important to them.

So, like a poorly thought out Man Who Shot Liberty Valance?

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 28 mars 2011 - 12:46 .

[just.a.dude]

TJPags wrote...

Yes, Hawke resolves the Qunari incident by accident.  Hawke simply beats Meredith to the palace.  I have no doubt that between Meredith and/or Orsino, they could have gotten in.  And even if not, Arishok takes over the city, finds Isabela and/or the book, and leaves.  Problem over.

This is where I believe the Champion is vital and not accidental to the outcome of events. I do not think that Meredith or Orsino would have been successful and Isabela would have been long gone with the relic once the conflict with the Qunari started.

Like you wrote in your earlier post, Hawke has no agenda, but I feel, without Hawke we are looking at something akin to the Darkspawn Cronicles DLC (without the Warden the darkspawn win) in terms of how the story in DA2 would have developed.

[The Angry One]

just.a.dude wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yes, Hawke resolves the Qunari incident by accident.  Hawke simply beats Meredith to the palace.  I have no doubt that between Meredith and/or Orsino, they could have gotten in.  And even if not, Arishok takes over the city, finds Isabela and/or the book, and leaves.  Problem over.

This is where I believe the Champion is vital and not accidental to the outcome of events. I do not think that Meredith or Orsino would have been successful and Isabela would have been long gone with the relic once the conflict with the Qunari started.

Like you wrote in your earlier post, Hawke has no agenda, but I feel, without Hawke we are looking at something akin to the Darkspawn Cronicles DLC (without the Warden the darkspawn win) in terms of how the story in DA2 would have developed.

You honestly think that the experienced Knight-Commander and her Templars or the First Enchanter wouldn't be able to handle the Arishok and his goons?
And that's just if they did it seperately. Despite their squabbling they did work together to get inside, it's entirely possible they'd team up and leave an Arishok shaped smear on the wall.

[just.a.dude]

The Angry One wrote...

just.a.dude wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yes, Hawke resolves the Qunari incident by accident.  Hawke simply beats Meredith to the palace.  I have no doubt that between Meredith and/or Orsino, they could have gotten in.  And even if not, Arishok takes over the city, finds Isabela and/or the book, and leaves.  Problem over.

This is where I believe the Champion is vital and not accidental to the outcome of events. I do not think that Meredith or Orsino would have been successful and Isabela would have been long gone with the relic once the conflict with the Qunari started.

Like you wrote in your earlier post, Hawke has no agenda, but I feel, without Hawke we are looking at something akin to the Darkspawn Cronicles DLC (without the Warden the darkspawn win) in terms of how the story in DA2 would have developed.

You honestly think that the experienced Knight-Commander and her Templars or the First Enchanter wouldn't be able to handle the Arishok and his goons?
And that's just if they did it seperately. Despite their squabbling they did work together to get inside, it's entirely possible they'd team up and leave an Arishok shaped smear on the wall.

Yes, just like Alistar would not have defeated the Archdemon. It is the hero who does the things his companions can not.

Hawke does not have an agenda. He does not instegate the events, but he does resolve them up until the end, where he chooses sides. Much of the game is spent giving you events from which to base your final choice on.

[TJPags]

just.a.dude wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yes, Hawke resolves the Qunari incident by accident.  Hawke simply beats Meredith to the palace.  I have no doubt that between Meredith and/or Orsino, they could have gotten in.  And even if not, Arishok takes over the city, finds Isabela and/or the book, and leaves.  Problem over.

This is where I believe the Champion is vital and not accidental to the outcome of events. I do not think that Meredith or Orsino would have been successful and Isabela would have been long gone with the relic once the conflict with the Qunari started.

Like you wrote in your earlier post, Hawke has no agenda, but I feel, without Hawke we are looking at something akin to the Darkspawn Cronicles DLC (without the Warden the darkspawn win) in terms of how the story in DA2 would have developed.

Ehhh, I just can't agree.  Hawke got his title by stopping the Qunari - who really should have never attacked in the first place.  Hawke couldn't even get his own companion - possibly lover - to explain why she kept bolting every time you tried to walk into the Qunari compound with her.  And all it takes for them to leave is giving them the book and Isabela - they weren't out for conquest, really, they wanted the book and the thief.

And even if Hawke was indeed vital to this part - this wasn't the main event of DA2.  It was the mage templar conflict.  Which Hawke was unable to influence.  Hell, even when my Hawke tried to help mages throughout the game, that one quest Orsino sends you on results in EVERY MAGE ATTACKING YOU!!!!

For all Hawke's supposed influence and importance, at the end game, if you tell meredith not to use the Rite of Anullment, she does anyway - she doesn't listen.  Same with Orsino if you side with Meredith - he fights you.

So if Hawke was indeed important for being the Champion of Kirkwall, how does it help, exactly?

[Foolsfolly]

So if Hawke was indeed important for being the Champion of Kirkwall, how does it help, exactly?

It doesn't. At all.

And I do believe Meredith her knights and Orsino and his mages could have taken the Qunari. They were stranded for years and their numbers had dwindled. They had the keep, sure, but they didn't exactly defend it well. They didn't even bar the doors.

The Templars, Mages, and whatever city guards they could find could have taken that Keep. It may have cost them dearly doing it but Meredith and Orsino could have taken it. Worse comes to worse, Orsino would just go Harvester and hulk smash the Arishok.

Hawke's importance is minimal. All Hawke does is lose all the family members in Kirkwall.

[The Angry One]

just.a.dude wrote...

Yes, just like Alistar would not have defeated the Archdemon. It is the hero who does the things his companions can not.

Hawke does not have an agenda. He does not instegate the events, but he does resolve them up until the end, where he chooses sides. Much of the game is spent giving you events from which to base your final choice on.

Not comparable at all.
Defeating the Archdemon required a rallying of forces and an organised defense of Denerim to bring it down, Alistair himself tells you of his reluctance to be leader hence why he defers to you despite being the senior Warden.
With his confidence issues unsolved and his inability to lead a cohesive force, the Archdemon wins.

The Arishok on the other hand requires two extremely capable people to be able to walk in on their own and kick his ass - and we see moments after the duel, Meredith barges in with her forces.

[AlexXIV]

omearaee wrote...

It's called Marketing.

Gotta love modern times. Get a fancy name for something and it's all fine. I mean ... it's not a lie, it's marketing.

[Vicious]

The Idol doesn't amply personality. It just does whatever BioWare wanted it to do at the moment. They don't describe it or limit its power. It just does things and no character in the game seems to think that's interesting enough to ask questions about it or where it was from.

Yep. Big writing fail.

[Vicious]

With his confidence issues unsolved and his inability to lead a cohesive force, the Archdemon wins.

Bad DLC notwithstanding, I am sure Alistair could 'rise to the challenge' as it were and save Ferelden without the Warden's help.

There are plenty of instances where he makes decisions like your character isn't even there. Go talk to the Revered Mother in Lothering and threaten her for Sten [without Leli in your party obviously] Alistair basically goes "OMG let me handle this" and asks for Sten in a pretty eloquent manner that your Warden is for some reason unable to pull off.

Give the man some credit.

[Tainan7509]

The Angry One wrote...

just.a.dude wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Yes, Hawke resolves the Qunari incident by accident.  Hawke simply beats Meredith to the palace.  I have no doubt that between Meredith and/or Orsino, they could have gotten in.  And even if not, Arishok takes over the city, finds Isabela and/or the book, and leaves.  Problem over.

This is where I believe the Champion is vital and not accidental to the outcome of events. I do not think that Meredith or Orsino would have been successful and Isabela would have been long gone with the relic once the conflict with the Qunari started.

Like you wrote in your earlier post, Hawke has no agenda, but I feel, without Hawke we are looking at something akin to the Darkspawn Cronicles DLC (without the Warden the darkspawn win) in terms of how the story in DA2 would have developed.

You honestly think that the experienced Knight-Commander and her Templars or the First Enchanter wouldn't be able to handle the Arishok and his goons?
And that's just if they did it seperately. Despite their squabbling they did work together to get inside, it's entirely possible they'd team up and leave an Arishok shaped smear on the wall.

Templars and Mages both don't want to work together and so i think they are weak against Arishok.
No team work = dead.  They can't do it separately either because they don't want to see each other going first or second. If they do attack separately, then it is easy prey for Arishok. Arishok will eat them for dinner. That's why Hawke is important in this situation. A leader is needed.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 28 mars 2011 - 02:06 .

[Addai]

Does a protagonist always have to be a cookie-cutter "save the world from the edge of dooooom" character? This is a rhetorical question.

I liked the Warden's story, I like Hawke's story. Cassandra's book shows a cast of characters, not just one person, even if those others revolved around Hawke. The fact that some in Thedas see the "hero" as a villain makes for a more interesting story, not less.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 mars 2011 - 02:08 .