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[The Angry One]

Tainan7509 wrote...

Templars and Mages both don't want to work together and so i think they are weak against Arishok.
No team work = dead.  They can't do it separately either because they don't want to see each other going first or second. If they do attack separately, then it is easy prey for Arishok. Arishok will eat them for dinner. That's why Hawke is important in this situation. A leader is needed.

Ignoring the fact that they DO work together to get inside, I don't see why they wouldn't to defeat the Arishok.
Nor do I see why they couldn't individually take down that clumsy ogre.

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Tainan7509 wrote...

Templars and Mages both don't want to work together and so i think they are weak against Arishok.
No team work = dead.  They can't do it separately either because they don't want to see each other going first or second. If they do attack separately, then it is easy prey for Arishok. Arishok will eat them for dinner. That's why Hawke is important in this situation. A leader is needed.

Ignoring the fact that they DO work together to get inside, I don't see why they wouldn't to defeat the Arishok.
Nor do I see why they couldn't individually take down that clumsy ogre.

Why do I see Orsino before my inner eye, running in circles for two hours, whittling the arishok down with auto-attacks 

[Addai]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

The Idol only amplifies your personality. This is why Varric did not go insane from it.

I would accept this if Varric's brother didn't go nutso and have people cut off parts of themselves and eat lyrium. That has nothing to do with his personality.

And when Hawke has a piece of it he attacks 30%+ faster, which has nothing to do with personality.

The Idol just does stuff because the plot requires it to. Like make a golem ghost show up and kill people.

Bartrand was already greedy and ruthless, as Varric tells you in act 1.

I agree with Bryy.  The fantasy elements serve to bring out the human elements like greed for power and wealth, desperation, ambition, etc.  I might prefer a more subtle "low fantasy" take on those things, but that does not have the wow factor.  If the game hadn't had something "epic," people would be complaining about that instead.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 mars 2011 - 04:08 .

[Tainan7509]

The Angry One wrote...

Tainan7509 wrote...

Templars and Mages both don't want to work together and so i think they are weak against Arishok.
No team work = dead.  They can't do it separately either because they don't want to see each other going first or second. If they do attack separately, then it is easy prey for Arishok. Arishok will eat them for dinner. That's why Hawke is important in this situation. A leader is needed.

Ignoring the fact that they DO work together to get inside, I don't see why they wouldn't to defeat the Arishok.
Nor do I see why they couldn't individually take down that clumsy ogre.

They did becuase Hawke was there.

[Foolsfolly]

No, they work together because an army has seized the city. Regardless of who was in charge for the attack they would still work together. Orsino knows his fate under the Qun.

[Scnew]

I like Hawke, but I don't want him to be the protagonist for the next game. I would rather see Thedas through someone else's eyes each time I play it. And as much as I like having the main character talk, given a choice between that and the different origins/races of the first game, I'd pick the origins every time.

[Sharkey1337]

When it comes down to it, Hawke is the most responsible for funding Bartrand's expedition, which led to the discovery of the lyrium idol, which further maddened Meredith, which pushed her Mage hating to the extreme, which led to the Mage/Templar war. That's pretty much his entire impact on the story, for milling around for hours doing sidequests to earn 50 sovereign.

If you took Hawke out of the story completely things pretty much go along as they would without him.

Act 1: Bartrand would eventually get his expedition underway, chance of success may not be as good without Hawke in finding lyrium idol. Possible outcomes: 1) Bartrand finds lyrium idol, which further maddens Meredith in her Templar crackdowns. 2) Bartrand doesn't find the lyrium idol, Meredith continues her Templar crackdowns.

Act 2: Qunari attack Kirkwall, Viscount dies. Possible outcomes: 1) Arishok is not defeated, Kirkwall falls to Qunari, Free March/Qunari conflict likely to errupt from it. 2) Templars/Mages work together in defending Kirkwall, Qunari are defeated, Meredith declares herself Champion, Orsino grumbles under his breath, vows to become blood mage. =P

Act 3: Templar/Mage relations worsen due to Meredith's harsh crackdowns to rampant blood mages running around. Anders blows up the Chantry, Meredith wants to evoke the Right of Annulment .Mages eventually rebel with blood magic in pure irony of Meredith's claims, Mage Rebellion runs rampant. Outcome: Mages rebel against the Circle establishment, Orsino lives or dies, Meredith lives or dies.

So yeah, events are predetermined by Bioware to happen in such a way that a Mage rebellion is gonna happen no matter what, thus laying the foundation for their next game. Honestly, they could've just left DA2 as pure back story in the true sequel to Origins. No matter what you do as Hawke in the game carries very little actual weight in the conclusion.

Modifié par Sharkey1337, 28 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Mages in Kirkwall were corrupt and Meredith was lyrium addled and then a super powered crazy woman.

Not all the mages were corrupt any more than all the templars were repugnant. The problem is Meredith ordered their execution for the actions of a man who had no ties to the Circle at all.

Foolsfolly wrote...

The situations are very similar except the mages also blew up the Chantry and killed untold innocents before the Templar put them down.

The whole problem is that the Circle mages had nothing to do with the attack on the Chantry, and the Knight-Commander still ordered the genocide of every mage in Kirkwall, followed by the templars going through with it. Why would mages learn about this and not have a serious problem with an act of genocide for something no Circle mage had anything to do with?

Foolsfolly wrote...

And if you support the mages there's even less of a reason for the revolution to continue! Orsino's dead, countless blood mages and abominations that were hiding in the Circle are dead, and Meredith is dead. Cullen's likely the next Knight-Commander and he's very not unreasonable, as his true colors show in the finale.

Because the choice is between freedom and servitude. Since Wynne's revelation in Amaranthine about the meeting of the College of Magi in Cumberland, I'm not surprised it didn't take much to push the mages into emancipating themselves and breaking free from the Chantry.

[ExiledMimic]

RPGrogue wrote...

I have a feeling you will be hawke in DA3,

Him being in DA3?  Ok.  Him being the main character?  Oh please GOD no.  I'd rather Ogren be the main character.  Or better yet: Sigrun.  Heck, I could probably stand the talkative man from the Hanged Man more as the main character.  At least spewing nonsense in the dialog wheel would have a reason.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Varric states clearly what the "next chapter" will be - Hawke is going to put the Chantry back together.

There's no indication that's what Hawke is going to do. Maybe Cassandra, perhaps, but even Varric mentions the Seekers have broken free to hunt the mages and the templars are no longer taking orders.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Bioware is going to make you do it (and it makes sense to me). They're going to say that despite what you "want" - the Chantry collapsing will only lead to the ending of society. If the Chantry falls - the Qunari will come, and if you think it's bad under the Chantry, wait until the Qunari get hold of Thedas' mages.

The people of Rivain have plenty among them who don't follow the Andrastian religion, and neither do the Dalish. I don't see why you think Bioware would force us to "save" the Chantry, since it makes no sense for a pro-mage Hawke to force the mages of the Circles back into servitude.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Sorry gang - even the rebel mages with a hard on for terrorism are going to end up putting the Chantry back.

Who wanted emancipation from slavery, you mean?

[Foolsfolly]

Most mages in the Circle had to be corrupt. We only meet what, two mages that aren't Blood Mages? That forbidden for a reason, and its the Templar's job to stop Blood magic.

It really doesn't matter if the Circle Mages had anything to do with it. Anders was a Circle Mage, he knew what he was doing, and Anders perfectly symbolizes exactly why the Circles are needed. An emotionally unstable mage is dangerous to everyone and is the reason why the Templars need to be vigilant in their duty. Where do you think the people of Thedas will stand on this issue? How many died in that? If such people existed in our world wouldn't you fear and prejudice them?

So the manner on if a Circle Mage did it or not isn't the point, even though Anders was a Circle Mage just not from that Circle. The point is a mage did it; a mage abomination which all mages can become.

And to your last point; freedom? There's no freedom in Thedas especially for mages. The best place for a mage freedom might be in Tevinter but the weak are slaves there. Most mages have no idea how lucky they are to be in the Circles. Wynne herself is a huge supporter of the Circles for this reason: it protects the civilians of Thedas and the mages.

The mage revolution doesn't stand a chance. Not globally. Perhaps in a few nations or city-states they'll win and round up the civilians....but it's very likely that just fighting that war will lead them to blood magic or becoming an Abomination.

Don't the people of Thedas deserve to not be ruled over by murderous mages? Don't they deserve to not be blown up by unstable mad mages? I have no sympathy for the mages.

Also, the College of Magi meeting has nothing to do with this since we're not told about them or their influence at all throughout the game. For all we know it was a forgotten subplot from Awakening, which honestly wouldn't surprise me.

[Medhia Nox]

But it makes sense for an Anti-Mage person to save the free mages?

You do realize they're not going to make two separate games right LobselVith8? They're going to pick one story and tell it - what you or I "want" doesn't matter. For example - I "want" all the rebel mages to be completely wiped out in Thedas, but if Bioware doesn't want to tell that story - and goes with the mage terrorist revolution story, I'll likely either have to go along with it or skip it. As will you if they give a reason to return the world to status quo.

I know what you "want" LobselVith8 - but I really don't think Bioware spent 7 years designing a fantasy world to make it into the typical fantasy trash that's already out there in 2 games.

[Foolsfolly]

ExiledMimic wrote...

RPGrogue wrote...

I have a feeling you will be hawke in DA3,

Him being in DA3?  Ok.  Him being the main character?  Oh please GOD no.  I'd rather Ogren be the main character.  Or better yet: Sigrun.  Heck, I could probably stand the talkative man from the Hanged Man more as the main character.  At least spewing nonsense in the dialog wheel would have a reason.

Yeah, I liked Hawke more than the Warden but let's leave Hawke in the past. Bring on a new playable character.

[Camenae]

Foolsfolly wrote...

And to your last point; freedom? There's no freedom in Thedas especially for mages.

This.  Everybody yelling "FREEEEEDOM!" seems to think Thedas is like modern-day America or something.  People need to stop for a second and realize that, IN THAT SETTING, giving mages "the freedom of every man" = giving them exactly sh*t for freedom.  Unless by "every man" you mean kings and nobles and the Tevinter magisters.

[Deztyn]

Not to mention that they'll be facing a world that justifiably hates and fears them and they have no country and no community of their own so 'winning' in any organized fashion necessitates conquering.

[Medhia Nox]

Speaking of "Freeeeedom!" - that didn't turn out well for a whole nation of people seeking freedom from England. Now - it's several nations of Thedas... against "6?" Circles of magi?

For some reason all the supporters think that "magically" all the mages are gonna join hands and be of like mind about this rebellion.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[LobselVith8]

Most mages had to be corrupt... Why, exactly? Out of hundreds or thousands, Hawke met a handful of mages, Foolsfolly. I don't have faith in the theory that they were all corrupt, from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice, any more than your assertion that the mage revolution is doomed. We don't know whether it will succeed or fail. It's impossible to say for certain without more facts about what's going on in Thedas, and why the templars defected as well.

Mages being free doesn't mean mages will rule over ordinary people.

[LobselVith8]

People prefer freedom to subjugation, Foolsfolly. I don't see why so many people have such a problem with that. There hasn't been freedom for mages in a thousand years because they were forced into servitude for the Chantry, but evidently the mage revolution seeks to change that.

[Camenae]

I don't have a problem with giving mages their "freedom." I say go ahead give it to them. I'm just saying "freedom" in Thedas doesn't mean nearly, nearly as much as the word does in modern day America, so people screaming "freedom" might be sorely disappointed.

If you are saying "equal treatment" instead of "freedom," then that's something else entirely.

[Foolsfolly]

Deztyn wrote...

Not to mention that they'll be facing a world that justifiably hates and fears them and they have no country and no community of their own so 'winning' in any organized fashion necessitates conquering.

And if that happens the Divine will scream Exhalted March before the messenger finishes the message. Then the entirity of the Andrastian nations will march on that loose configuration of mages.

Anders is a terrible revolutionary. He blew up a building, said there was a purpose, killed countless innocents and yet has created nor backed no system of government, economy, or civil protection for after the revolution. What's his principals? Other than he hates Templars and the Chantry do we even know? Does he think all men are created equal? Does he think the Tevinters have it right?

What?

He doesn't know. He's an insane abomination who thinks his version of justice is just.

[LobselVith8]

No one needs to give mages freedom, because they apparently took it for themselves.

And since the templars are no longer taking orders and the Seekers left the Chantry to hunt the mages, who is going to follow the call to march against the Circles when Varric addressed that the Chantry is "in pieces" now?

[Foolsfolly]

And LobselVith8, most mages are corrupted because the Veil in Kirkwall is thin. The First Enchanter was a blood mage necromancer who helped hide the man who killed your mother. When the Circle was pushed every mage but those three that run out for mercy show they know blood magic.

That means Meredith was right. That whole Circle was corrupt. Side with the Templars, only three mages come forward as not being blood mages the rest die fighting you as blood mages (with demons and abominations coming at your in waves) or sacrifice themselves to help power Orsino's Harvester. Then the Circle's dead and Meredith's crazy idol sword makes her think this was all Hawke's plan.

People prefer freedom to subjugation, Foolsfolly

And the people of Thedas would prefer if a small group of overpowered individuals didn't threaten their every day lives just because they had a bad day. A single mage can level a town. Meredith's own sister killed their family and multitudes of Templars. That's the power of one mage.

Are you saying a small minority of people who are vulnerable to corruption and demons deserve more freedom than the vast majority who are powerless in the face of these threats?

[Deztyn]

Foolsfolly wrote...
 He's an insane abomination who thinks his version of justice is just.

QFT.

And it's obvious really early in the game that Anders 2.0 is a total nutter.

[Foolsfolly]

LobselVith8 wrote...

No one needs to give mages freedom, because they apparently took it for themselves.

And since the templars are no longer taking orders and the Seekers left the Chantry to hunt the mages, who is going to follow the call to march against the Circles when Varric addressed that the Chantry is "in pieces" now?

The NATIONS of Thedas. The Templars might not be taking orders but you honestly think the nations of the world are going want this? Nobles rule because that's how it's always been. A small group of mages can defeat much larger forces and install themselves as rulers.

You really think the nobles are going to support the mages? The nobles are the status quo and mages would upset that.

[LobselVith8]

We never met most mages, Foolsfolly, that's the problem. There's no evidence to support that "most" mages are corrupt, and you are incorrect in stating that Orsino was a blood mage necromancer when he admits in both versions that he never practiced blood magic or Quentin's research until now. We have no proof to disprove Orsino's claim.

Meredith was wrong. The Circle wasn't all corrupt, and they bad nothing to do with the attack Anders made. And since Varric reveals many mages left to tell the other Circles what happened, clearly not every mage was an abomination or slaughtered.

And I don't believe in the idea that either normal people or mages need to be enslaved in order for the other to be free.