200 réponses à ce sujet

[Alren]

After finishing the story I still think that the Hero of Ferelden is more important. Hawke may be important in Kirkwall, but the hero stopped a blight. a BLIGHT. everyone in the world owes him

[Foolsfolly]

We never met most mages, Foolsfolly, that's the problem.

I've wiped out the Circle twice. Only three mages come forward asking for mercy the others were raving abominations, blood mages, or willing sacrifices to Orsino.

We have no proof to believe Orsino either. He lied multiple times to Meredith. The whole argument they were having when Anders blew up the Chantry was because Meredith wanted to do her job and search the Circle for blood mages and forbidden knowledge (which she'd certainly find out that Orsino had blood magic books and books on necromancy, including communications to a known serial killing necromancer).

Meredith was wrong. The Circle wasn't all corrupt, and they bad nothing to do with the attack Anders made.

Anders has nothing to do with the fact that the Circle was rampant with blood mages. Even siding with the mages has blood mages attacking you. They summon demons and turn into abominations and then Orsino transforms too because, lulz, you supported the wrong side of this fight!

And I don't believe in the idea that either normal people or mages need to be enslaved in order for the other to be free.

The Circle is not enslavement. It's a school and home for mages where they learn to master their arts and control their emotions. The Templars are there to police them. The Knight-Commander and First Enchanter have about the same power and we've definitely seen Gregoir and Irving work together, they even have a form of friendship. They both wanted the best for the mages. Orinso was blood mage and necromancer and Meredith was a paranoid who was driven completely nutso because the plot required her to be irredeemable.

[KAAurious]

Flemeth says "Sup".

[Foolsfolly]

KAAurious wrote...

Flemeth says "Sup".

Flemeth from the Destiny trailer says, "I have a plot purpose for being in this game!"

[LobselVith8]

Out of hundreds or thousands of mages, Foolsfolly, we met only a fraction of them. Claiming it's the "wrong side" is your opinion, not indisputable fact. I personally saw it as an act of genocide, and I had no interest in murdering innocent men, women, and children for something they had nothing to do with.

You're welcome to think Orsino was lying, but we have no proof either way.

There are people consider the Chantry controlled Circles slavery, and even Hawke can address it as such. You're welcome not to personally see it that way, of course.

[Foolsfolly]

If you side with the Templars you annul the Circle. There's no one left. It's not thousands, but it might be hundreds. And they all demons and abominations fighting with them. That's corrupt.

A better argument is that whole "a stressed mage turns to blood magic" thing. An argument that is completely unprovable since they fight a pro-mage as well as a pro-Templar.

You're welcome to think Orsino was lying, but we have no proof either way.

I really do think he was lying. He harbored a serial killing blood mage and necromancer and had the man's research. He did that full well knowing that it was a death sentence for holding onto his research. Why would he keep it if not because he was using it?

There are people consider the Chantry controlled Circles slavery, and even Hawke can address it as such. You're welcome not to personally see it that way, of course.

And there are people like Irving, Wynne, and Bethany who consider it home and not nearly as bad as everyone else says it is.

[Dark Specie]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Now - it's several nations of Thedas... against "6?" Circles of magi?

 
Hmm, isn't there like, 11 Circles or something? But, what makes you think that the nations of Thedas are going to want to have a hand in this? So far the conflict is Templars VS Mages exclusively, and there's no gurantee that some of the countries are going to want to partiparticle in the conflict, unless it REALLY spirals out of control.

For some reason all the supporters think that "magically" all the mages are gonna join hands and be of like mind about this rebellion.

Heh, yeah, there's that too, I guess. Considering the Fraternities, there's almost certainly going to be a difference of opinion on the course to take. But the same can be true for the Templars, as they're not all united in their purpose.

[Camenae]

Ultimately I don't think it matters if there were hundreds or thousands of mages who end up getting annulled. Even if there were only one innocent mage, killing him/her along with the rest would be wrong. I hesitate to say that if the innocents were in the minority then it'd still be the better thing to do, because at what percentage of error would you draw the line? If only 1% is innocent? 10%? Less than 50%? Don't want to go down that slippery slope.

That said, that becomes the problem with Anders. He didn't seem have any compunction causing the deaths of innocent people, as undoubtedly some did/will happen. One cannot use the argument "but there were some innocents" to prove that the Right of Annulment was wrong, and then say that it doesn't apply to Anders as well.

I also apologize, OP, for contributing to the derailing your thread...

[LobselVith8]

Irving thanks the Warden for removing "their shackles" if he asked for the Magi boon, and Wynne admits it's a prison and an oppressive place, but that the Warden can change that (in regards to the latter). Bethany also talks about how she doesn't believe mages should be imprisoned because the Maker gave her these abilities.

As for it not being thousands, we have no statistics to make any assumptions about how many mages are there. And please stop saying they were all corrupt when you have no proof to ever support such a claim.

Again, there's no proof regarding Orsino lying. Maybe the writers will tell us to clear the matter up? But so far we have no proof to disprove his statement.

[trobbins777]

I personally wanted to make the circle seem less like a prison and integrate the templars into the city guard. Then let mages who have passed their Harrowing have more freedom.

But that wasn't an option.

anyway to weigh in on this whole thing the templars OF KIRKWALL attacked and hammered mages until the point of desperation, and in their desperation they turned to a magic they didn't understand. A magic that always seems to screw the user(and everyone around him/her) in the end.

The templars have a right to be vigilent against mages, but many are just ignorant A-holes. it's like having racists in charge of homeland security to protect us from terrorists. I hate both of them, but i cant really tell you which i hate more.

Modifié par trobbins777, 28 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[ShrinkingFish]

The first few posts in this thread are a monument to ignorance.

[The Angry One]

On Orsino, do you honestly think he pulled blood magic and whatever the hell else he apparently has access to out of his ass?

[Camenae]

The Angry One wrote...

On Orsino, do you honestly think he pulled blood magic and whatever the hell else he apparently has access to out of his ass?

I'd say no if I were following the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, but I've seen that some jurors will vote to acquit no matter what they see.  It's called nullification and they do have that right to vote guilty/not guilty "just because."

[trembli0s]

Here was the biggest problem: mage coherency (get it? There is none)

You go templar, you find out they're all nuts and kill them..

You go pro-mage, you kill templars, and THEN the mages go insane ANYWAY.

END RESULT: Close to 9/10s of the mages you meet in this game are blood mages OR abominations. There's 3 that you can let escape + the 1 who dies in the blood ritual anyway I think. Really if you look at it objectively there's no reason NOT for you to cull the lot of them.

This is coming from someone who played a pro-mage apostate.

[Camenae]

I still say that it's largely irrelevant how big a proportion of mages you meet are abominations/blood mages, and irrelevant how many mages there are exactly in the Kirkwall Circle. Of course, a strong correlation will have a strong persuasive effect, but undoubtedly some are still innocent. And as long as some are, I can't see how I could ever justify killing them all. And not being able to tell who exactly are the innocents make me even more reluctant to use the Right of Annulment.

[ksaf]

a lot of people complained that origins only had one ending. but how is that different in DA2? no matter which side you choose, the game always ends with the mage revolution.

[trembli0s]

And I spared the innocents. The problem is there's too few. Even when I TRIED to help the mage/templar rebellion all the mages just told me to bunk off and went nuts.

But objectively is it worth it to kill the mages (of who 90% are blood mages/abominations anyway) even if a few are innocent, or to let one crazy one blow up the Chantry?

[trobbins777]

Let's clear something up. If you side with the templars, the mages go crazy. If you side with the mages. The templars kill all the mages except orsino and bethany, then orsino goes crazy.

Honestly though you shouldn't have to fight both Orsino and Meredith. It should either be Hawke supported the templars, Meredith's not crazy mages are evil, Orsino is the last boss. Or Orsino is right Meredith is evil. Having to fight both of them makes no sense

[trembli0s]

trobbins777 wrote...

Let's clear something up. If you side with the templars, the mages go crazy. If you side with the mages. The templars kill all the mages except orsino and bethany, then orsino goes crazy.

End result: crazy!! 

In all fairness I agree with the second part of your post!

It was just an excuse to have two big ZOMGBOZZMMORPG style fights for the end. Maybe BioWare Austin asked for some play-testing for The Knights of the Old Republic MMO-boss testing hmm? 

[The Angry One]

Orsino going crazy if you side with him is just so facepalmingly stupid I don't even have anything to compare it too.

[TheBlackBaron]

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino going crazy if you side with him is just so facepalmingly stupid I don't even have anything to compare it too.

Pretend the hyper-thinning of the Veil that must be going on as a result of the execution of the Rite of Annulment on top of the city's pre-existing condition allowed a demon to break through his defenses and combine with the already heavy stress he's under to drive him insane.

I find that's my pereferred way of rationalizing him inexplicably deciding there is no hope after having just curb stomped the first Templar wave. The only thing it can't explain is why he turns into a Harvester, but I guess the usual excuse of Varric exaggeration shenanigans would work for that. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 28 mars 2011 - 07:18 .

[trembli0s]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Orsino going crazy if you side with him is just so facepalmingly stupid I don't even have anything to compare it too.

Pretend the hyper-thinning of the Veil that must be going on as a result of the execution of the Rite of Annulment on top of the city's pre-existing condition allowed a demon to break through his defenses and combine with the already heavy stress he's under to drive him insane.

I find that's my pereferred way of rationalizing him inexplicably deciding there is no hope after having just curb stomped the first Templar wave. The only thing it can't explain is why he turns into a Harvester, but I guess the usual excuse of Varric exaggeration shenanigans would work for that. 

This was really the only way to "get it", thank goodness someone decided to put the Band of Three Codexes in or I would have no remotely reasonable rationalization!

[Deztyn]

It also helps explain Anders 2.0.

Justice seems to take him over completely in the fade, it would make sense that living in Darktown would make him lose more control.

Hooray for the Band of Three.

Modifié par Deztyn, 28 mars 2011 - 08:07 .

[Hellrazer3600]

Myounage wrote...

After taking ten years to resurrect Flemeth and save a city from siege and indirectly causing a war? Haha ... lol. Isn't that bit ... forced? The Warden did a hell of a lot more than that in a single year and this guy's suppose to be more  important? Lol writing fail.

That only means that Grey Wardens own any Champions. I miss my time playing as a Grey Warden (All in all I miss Dragon age 1

[Warheadz]

I posted this already elsewhere but it fits perfectly the discussion of Orsino going nuts.

Warheadz wrote...

SPOILERS!!!!!

Seriously, we gotta keep this thread alive. I ran across another comic, this time on how ****ing nuts Orsino was/went. I personally found it extremely annoying, as it didn't fit the way he acted before at all.