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[The Angry One]

Yeah that comic is basically my reaction.
Orsino's design and VA are awesome, and he really sold his part. Had me rallying for the mages despite my overall views. Then "HAY BLOOD MAGIC".

WHAT.

[Ingu]

God I really have preferred it if Orsino at least helped us take care of Meredith before we had to fight him. I was all: at least he'll be helping us... nooooooo what?! wait we have to kill him?! What was the point of that?!?!?! D=

Modifié par Ingu, 28 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Ponendus]

When was it stated that Hawke is 'the most' important character in Dragon Age? From memory all I heard from the developers is that he was just one story, one of many stories to tell about the Dragon Age. Certainly it was said that he was 'an' important person, but I don't recall anyone saying he was the 'most' important.

[nikeimizhong]

Aradace wrote...

@TJ - Agreed, however, unless Varric passes the story down and/or somehow keeps how things "really" happened alive long after he is dead, how do you think people are going to remember it? The way it really happened, or the exaggerated "Legend" that people apparently are already whispering about?

Well dude, according to you, no one will even remember hawke XD , it seems like everyone in history will be remembering Anders though! he kinda signed his name on the face of the history there lol

[Tainan7509]

trembli0s wrote...

And I spared the innocents. The problem is there's too few. Even when I TRIED to help the mage/templar rebellion all the mages just told me to bunk off and went nuts.

But objectively is it worth it to kill the mages (of who 90% are blood mages/abominations anyway) even if a few are innocent, or to let one crazy one blow up the Chantry?

You won't get any answer you want. You should ask Bioware and not the people over here. 
For example: Bioware why don't you make a fair number of innocent mages and bad mages in between them? make it even so we can have a fair argument. like the conflict b/w templars and mages

[Talvrae]

Myounage wrote...

After taking ten years to resurrect Flemeth and save a city from siege and indirectly causing a war? Haha ... lol. Isn't that bit ... forced? The Warden did a hell of a lot more than that in a single year and this guy's suppose to be more  important? Lol writing fail.

What the warden did was only restore the status quo. He didnt change the world. Hawke on the other hands completelly change the statut quo after the event alll the circle of Magi have rebelled against the chantry changing completelly thebalance of power trought out the continent

[TobiTobsen]

Tainan7509 wrote...

trembli0s wrote...

And I spared the innocents. The problem is there's too few. Even when I TRIED to help the mage/templar rebellion all the mages just told me to bunk off and went nuts.

But objectively is it worth it to kill the mages (of who 90% are blood mages/abominations anyway) even if a few are innocent, or to let one crazy one blow up the Chantry?

You won't get any answer you want. You should ask Bioware and not the people over here. 
For example: Bioware why don't you make a fair number of innocent mages and bad mages in between them? make it even so we can have a fair argument. like the conflict b/w templars and mages

Because nobody would side with nutjob Meredith if there would be more normal mages. A great part of the community is pro mage already. If we would have mages like in DOA and the Kirkwall templars, nobody would even consider which path they should choose at the end and the whole "choose you side" concept would be worthless. 

[Foolsfolly]

Because nobody would side with nutjob Meredith if there would be more normal mages.

I'd disagree with that. A properly set up argument of public security vs private liberty would be interesting. Would you oppress a minority to protect the majority? Would you really place innocent people at risk because of your belief that all people deserve some measure of equality?

That's a question that doesn't have an easy answer.

Blood mages and evil tiki idols however are easy to answer. The whole last act is a cheap cop out out of an interesting morally gray question.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 28 mars 2011 - 12:07 .

[PaulSX]

Talvrae wrote...

Myounage wrote...

After taking ten years to resurrect Flemeth and save a city from siege and indirectly causing a war? Haha ... lol. Isn't that bit ... forced? The Warden did a hell of a lot more than that in a single year and this guy's suppose to be more  important? Lol writing fail.

What the warden did was only restore the status quo. He didnt change the world. Hawke on the other hands completelly change the statut quo after the event alll the circle of Magi have rebelled against the chantry changing completelly thebalance of power trought out the continent

if the change you talked about is to make the world even worse. In my theory, no matter what, the mage and templar will rebel from the chantry and chantry will fall into collapse. Hawke just happened to be at that pivot moment. at least warden lead the army and stopped the blight which is considered as a threat to the Thedas. that makes him/her more epic than Hawke.

[TobiTobsen]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Because nobody would side with nutjob Meredith if there would be more normal mages.

I'd disagree with that. A properly set up argument of public security vs private liberty would be interesting. Would you oppress a minority to protect the majority? Would you really place innocent people at risk because of your belief that all people deserve some measure of equality?

That's a question that doesn't have an easy answer.

Blood mages and evil tiki idols however are easy to answer. The whole last act is a cheap cop out out of an interesting morally gray question.

With nutjob Meredith I meant lyrium-idol possessed Meredith. And I support your argument. Making everybody bat**** insane was pretty "meh".

[Foolsfolly]

Ah, than I completely agree with you, Tobi.

[5ubzer0]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Anders is a terrible revolutionary. He blew up a building, said there was a purpose, killed countless innocents and yet has created nor backed no system of government, economy, or civil protection for after the revolution. What's his principals? Other than he hates Templars and the Chantry do we even know? Does he think all men are created equal? Does he think the Tevinters have it right?

Personally, I don't think that's a fair statement to make. There are a few references in the game to Anders' manifesto.
Manifesto = public declaration of one's principles and intentions. Since he's hidden several copies in Hawke's mansion, the heroine should know the content.

It's a shame, really, that we as players are left in the dark. It's hard to judge his character favorably based on the limited information we get. But then again, what do you expect, when a game has been rushed like this?

[just.a.dude]

The Angry One wrote...

just.a.dude wrote...

Yes, just like Alistar would not have defeated the Archdemon. It is the hero who does the things his companions can not.

Hawke does not have an agenda. He does not instegate the events, but he does resolve them up until the end, where he chooses sides. Much of the game is spent giving you events from which to base your final choice on.

Not comparable at all.
Defeating the Archdemon required a rallying of forces and an organised defense of Denerim to bring it down, Alistair himself tells you of his reluctance to be leader hence why he defers to you despite being the senior Warden.
With his confidence issues unsolved and his inability to lead a cohesive force, the Archdemon wins.

The Arishok on the other hand requires two extremely capable people to be able to walk in on their own and kick his ass - and we see moments after the duel, Meredith barges in with her forces.

Your first argument supports my statement. The DLC showed what would have happened with Alistar leading the charge with the issues he had. The Warden did what he could not. We know this because of the DLC. Without the DLC Alistar simply defers to you.

Given this storytelling device in DAO I simply put out there that the same is true for DA2. Maybe there will even be a DLC from the Qunari perspektive with Meredith and Orsinio failing.

[Estelindis]

I enjoyed playing the role of Hawke, but I think the actions of Isabela (Act II) and Anders (Act III) had far more of an impact than Hawke's actions ever did. You cannot get Isabela to tell you about the qunari connection to her "relic" earlier than she does (if you could, maybe the deaths of many people could have been prevented), and you cannot dissuade Anders from blowing up the chantry (ditto on the lives that could have been saved). It's very hard for me to see Hawke having a huge impact on Kirkwall when she can't even do that much with her own party members.

Modifié par Estelindis, 28 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[Arppis]

You can influence the story still. You can't even change the main events in the DA:O much either.

[LobselVith8]

trembli0s wrote...

And I spared the innocents. The problem is there's too few. Even when I TRIED to help the mage/templar rebellion all the mages just told me to bunk off and went nuts.

But objectively is it worth it to kill the mages (of who 90% are blood mages/abominations anyway) even if a few are innocent, or to let one crazy one blow up the Chantry?

Out of the hundreds or thousands of mages and apprentices in the Gallows Prison, we don't meet 90% of them. We do encounter many blood mages and abominations, but we don't meet enough actual mages or apprentices in the Kirkwall Circle to say with any certainty that all of them are the same as the antagonists we encounter as Hawke.

[Estelindis]

Arppis wrote...

You can't even change the main events in the DA:O much either.

You can decide who rules Ferelden.  You can decide if Morrigan has her god-baby or not.  You can decide the fates of numerous factions (mages, elves, dwarves, etc.).  Now, frankly, it doesn't make much sense for the Warden to have this much influence (e.g. I still don't understand why, in my game, a woman in love with Alistair was given the choice over who should rule).  But the Warden has it nonetheless.  I do acknowledge that there are large plot events you can't change (e.g. travelling down to Redcliffe and leaving Denerim to be attacked), but in general I feel DA2 is guilty of a lot more of this than DA:O.

[The Angry One]

just.a.dude wrote...

Given this storytelling device in DAO I simply put out there that the same is true for DA2. Maybe there will even be a DLC from the Qunari perspektive with Meredith and Orsinio failing.

The difference is Alistair needed guidance, Meredith/Orsino don't.
And if worst comes to worst, Orsino becomes the Blob and eats the Arishok.

[Ser Mix-a-lot]

My son will be the most important person in the Dragon Age universe.
See Sandal's prophecy...

[Arppis]

The Angry One wrote...

just.a.dude wrote...

Given this storytelling device in DAO I simply put out there that the same is true for DA2. Maybe there will even be a DLC from the Qunari perspektive with Meredith and Orsinio failing.

The difference is Alistair needed guidance, Meredith/Orsino don't.
And if worst comes to worst, Orsino becomes the Blob and eats the Arishok.

They did need guidance. Alistair needed it less, I didn't need to change the man to make him a king.

Those two however, act like two little kids ruining everything.

Modifié par Arppis, 28 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Bann Duncan]

Estelindis wrote...

I enjoyed playing the role of Hawke, but I think the actions of Isabela (Act II) and Anders (Act III) had far more of an impact than Hawke's actions ever did. You cannot get Isabela to tell you about the qunari connection to her "relic" earlier than she does (if you could, maybe the deaths of many people could have been prevented), and you cannot dissuade Anders from blowing up the chantry (ditto on the lives that could have been saved). It's very hard for me to see Hawke having a huge impact on Kirkwall when she can't even do that much with her own party members.

You can, but Justice intervenes.

[Estelindis]

Bann Duncan wrote...

You can, but Justice intervenes.

Really?  The closest thing I got was telling Anders that he's on his own.  Well, then, he'll just blow up the chantry on his own, won't he?  But maybe I need to try making him my rival instead of my friend.

[Bann Duncan]

Estelindis wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

You can, but Justice intervenes.

Really?  The closest thing I got was telling Anders that he's on his own.  Well, then, he'll just blow up the chantry on his own, won't he?  But maybe I need to try making him my rival instead of my friend.

I've yet to do it, but it requires either full rivalry or rivalmance; I'm not sure which.

Modifié par Bann Duncan, 28 mars 2011 - 04:39 .

[Medhia Nox]

I really need a compilation of all the "Quotes" of "We're enslaved" by mages - and who said them.

Anders - I don't care, the man's a psychotic, narcissistic terrorist who did everything he did over a cat.

Grace - I should have killed her when I saw her kneeling to a blood mage apostate, but no, I had compassion. Wench.

Orsino - Actually, he calls it a Sanctuary - despite being a stupid fool. I need to call Irving up and tell him to replace the imbecile I was forced to kill at my Circle. (Mine, because in my "real" playthrough I'm going to be Viscount)

====

The Tevinter mages that run rampant through the streets - they're not enslaved (in fact, they're all slavers). Hey, they even let a magister own a house - wasn't that so "oppressive".

My Hawke - they don't even bat an eyelash. Pretty lenient on the "slavery" thing.

Bethany: "Not bad here Hawke." - Signed, Enslaved Bethany. ((If one bad Templar Alrick makes all templars evil... then seventy blood mages make every mage in Thedas evil.))

My Warden (better... err... different game, I'm aware): I lived in a tower... got to walk around it in fact. If THAT is slavery - people have no idea was slavery really is. ((Again, saying that the Kirkwall tower is bad - cannot be synonymous with 'all towers practice slavery'))

====

If all mages though they were slaves - there would never be Loyalists or Aequatarians.

[byzantine horse]

Back on the topic of Hawke's importance, would it be fair to compare him/her to Achilles? The Trojan War would have happened whether he went or not, and it would have ended the way it did whether he was there or not. Oddyseus would still have built that horse.

Still, I'd say that Achilles is the character from the Iliad remembered the most by most people. My mother and sister for example, had never heard of Agamemnon or Hector, but Achilles - at least they knew of the name and that he was dipped in a river, killed people and died to an arrow in his heel.

If you think that Achilles was important because he killed Hector and broke Trojan morale - then Hawke is important because he killed the Arishok and became Champion of Kirkwall.

I think that Hawke is the Achilles of Thedas, really.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 29 mars 2011 - 12:01 .