145 réponses à ce sujet

[Eternal Phoenix]

I can't like this guy. I've tried but I just can't like him. Even my mage character hates him. He's the worst character I've ever seen in a game seriously. He's not a character you love to hate, he's a character you hate because he's poorly written (imo). Next I hear he has a thing for older men. This is the same guy who was asking for a girl and the right to cast lightning at fools.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 27 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[Big I]

I'm playing through Awakening at the moment, and what he did in DA2 is retroactively making me dislike him and Justice there.

[Vhalkyrie]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm playing through Awakening at the moment, and what he did in DA2 is retroactively making me dislike him and Justice there.

It does make for very interesting retrospect.  Especially the conversation where Justice asks Anders if he feels the mages are wronged, what is he doing about it.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 27 mars 2011 - 03:09 .

[Fieryeel]

It's not bad writing, he's juz unlikable. There's a difference.

[Arppis]

Elton John is dead wrote...

I can't like this guy. I've tried but I just can't like him. Even my mage character hates him. He's the worst character I've ever seen in a game seriously. He's not a character you love to hate, he's a character you hate because he's poorly written (imo). Next I hear he has a thing for older men. This is the same guy who was asking for a girl and the right to cast lightning at fools.

Older men don't deserve no love?!

There is nothing poorly written about him. If you don't like a character, that doesn't mean he/she is poorly written.

[MPSai]

I never liked him in Awakening, and he was really irritating in DA2. I decided to kill him, and I was starting to feel bad about it until he said something to the effect of "Well hurry and kill me so I can be celebrated as a martyr". Yeah. I was like "Great, I REALLY want to stab you now."

But yeah, he's not badly written, he's just a whiney, self-righteous, over-sensitive ****.

Modifié par MPSai, 27 mars 2011 - 03:26 .

[LobselVith8]

A thousand years of slavery is what Anders wanted to put an end to. He witnessed his first love turned into a tranquil and begging for death, and it changed him. He saw the tyranny of how mages were being treated in Kirkwall, and he wanted to put a stop to it. No one else was doing anything to put a stop to this injustice, including the Grand Cleric who had authority over the templars and the Knight-Commander. Anders wanted to end the subjugation of the mages.

[Masako52]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Next I hear he has a thing for older men. This is the same guy who was asking for a girl and the right to cast lightning at fools.

Him being bisexual is not a bad thing, jeez...

Though I agree it was really a lot more difficult to like Anders, I had a hard time getting attached to him. I liked the idea that he's hosting Justice's spirit. I guess that would've changed him. But there was just something about him that didn't click for me.

[The Cannibal Factory]

I think a larger number of people would have liked Anders at the end if they had given him a much longer end speech about his actions. More of a:

"I waited 7 long years for the Grand Cleric to finally step in and do something about it and for all her promises, she never did. I have watched Mages turning to demons left right and centre out of desperation. And Karl... what happened to him haunts me every day. No one was ever going to do anything. Sooner or later, someone has to stand up and change things... even if it costs them their life."

Rather than:

"I took a spirit into my soul to accomplish this. Just kill me already."

The problem with his ending was how he didn't have much time to justify it, so most people just think "He just murdered a little old lady and a bunch of innocent nuns - omg!" rather than "good point, you did have good reason - bravo my little revolutionary!"

Just sayin'.

[DeaHamlet]

Lady Vengeance wrote...

I think a larger number of people would have liked Anders at the end if they had given him a much longer end speech about his actions. More of a:

"I waited 7 long years for the Grand Cleric to finally step in and do something about it and for all her promises, she never did. I have watched Mages turning to demons left right and centre out of desperation. And Karl... what happened to him haunts me every day. No one was ever going to do anything. Sooner or later, someone has to stand up and change things... even if it costs them their life."

Rather than:

"I took a spirit into my soul to accomplish this. Just kill me already."

The problem with his ending was how he didn't have much time to justify it, so most people just think "He just murdered a little old lady and a bunch of innocent nuns - omg!" rather than "good point, you did have good reason - bravo my little revolutionary!"

Just sayin'.

That would have been an awesome speech.  I liked that he talked about how the compromise he took out wasn't really a compromise.
Since Hawkette in my playthroughs was at his side for all of it... she already knew all that, she didn't need him to explain. But it would have been nice for everyone else to hear...

[Eternal Phoenix]

Compare him to the Anders of Awakening and he is poorly written.

[Asdara]

I've done a middle-ground rouge, a pro-mage mage, and I'm working through the end of an anti-mage warrior. First was "okay" with Anders, like she saw his point, but knew he was going to take it too far and ended up siding with the Mages, but killing Anders for his crimes. Second was all for Anders as a romantic partner, and agreed with him in principle, but was pretty worried about his possession as well - not enough to really get in his face about it often though. She ended up sparing him to bring along for the Mages and I was disappointed in how very little that seemed to mean to him - like he was dead anyway inside but trying to be animated for the cause. If I can this time, I'm going to get him to realize that he's wrong because becoming the very oppressive force you hate is not the way to a just world.

I think he has a lot of depth to be explored from different angles, but he is definitely lacking at the same time: there isn't enough interaction with Justice/Vengeance, Anders's situation isn't given a deep probing - which you'd feel would be needed among long time companions risking their lives together on a frequent basis. More, I think, was needed or is still needed in some supplementary form, to complete our Anders experience, but what we did get has a lot of excellent writing in its foundations. You have to work for it though, if you write him off as "right" or "crazy" then you are missing the kernel.

[Ymladdych]

Asdara wrote...
I've done a middle-ground rouge, a pro-mage mage, and I'm working through the end of an anti-mage warrior. First was "okay" with Anders, like she saw his point, but knew he was going to take it too far and ended up siding with the Mages, but killing Anders for his crimes. Second was all for Anders as a romantic partner, and agreed with him in principle, but was pretty worried about his possession as well - not enough to really get in his face about it often though. She ended up sparing him to bring along for the Mages and I was disappointed in how very little that seemed to mean to him - like he was dead anyway inside but trying to be animated for the cause. If I can this time, I'm going to get him to realize that he's wrong because becoming the very oppressive force you hate is not the way to a just world.

I think he has a lot of depth to be explored from different angles, but he is definitely lacking at the same time: there isn't enough interaction with Justice/Vengeance, Anders's situation isn't given a deep probing - which you'd feel would be needed among long time companions risking their lives together on a frequent basis. More, I think, was needed or is still needed in some supplementary form, to complete our Anders experience, but what we did get has a lot of excellent writing in its foundations. You have to work for it though, if you write him off as "right" or "crazy" then you are missing the kernel.

Great post, Asdara.

[The Cannibal Factory]

Asdara wrote...

I think he has a lot of depth to be explored from different angles, but he is definitely lacking at the same time: there isn't enough interaction with Justice/Vengeance, Anders's situation isn't given a deep probing - which you'd feel would be needed among long time companions risking their lives together on a frequent basis. More, I think, was needed or is still needed in some supplementary form, to complete our Anders experience, but what we did get has a lot of excellent writing in its foundations. You have to work for it though, if you write him off as "right" or "crazy" then you are missing the kernel.

Couldn't agree more. There were massive missed opportunities with Anders.

Justice becoming vengeance, a willing host turned unwilling... it's a writer's dream. And yet we really found out so little about it. We got a few jokes from Varric and Isabella ("Aw Justice, let Anders come out and play!", "Anders? Can I speak to Anders?") but very little in the way of exploration. I wanted to know:

  - How did it happen? No, really. What caused Justice to change his statement of "I would never possess a living host!" and his absolute terror over becoming a demon to take such a risk?
  - Why would Anders' share himself, knowing it was permanent and might risk him turning into an abomination? What, did he think having Justice stuck inside him would be like a having someone to chat to before bedtime?!
  - Who came up with the chantry boom? Was it Anders or Justice?
  - Are they really "one soul" now? The very fact that they function seperately, and one can "take over" the other (Justice does this to Anders loads) indicates that they're really not.
  - Why does Justice hate Hawke if he/she is in a relationship with Anders? I mean, he envied Kristoff in Awakenings and felt the echo he had of the love for his wife - it moves Justice. You would have thought he'd welcome to chance to experience it.

Just a few of the million things that would have been fascinating to delve into.

Modifié par Lady Vengeance, 27 mars 2011 - 05:19 .

[ipgd]

He can be a bit hard to take. His character arc is, in essence, just one long exercise in tragedy porn. If you aren't the type to get off on watching the complete destruction of a man's psyche, I can understand why some might dislike him.

But there's a huge, huge difference between a character that's easy to hate and a character that's poorly written. Often times characters are easy to hate because they are poorly written, but that is definitely not the case of Anders. He may be self-righteous, preachy, hypocritical, and stark raving mad, but he is certainly not poorly written. While there are many who are more immediately likeable, I don't think there is any character in the DA series that even approaches the amount of depth Anders has.

"They" certainly did kill Anders. That's the whole point.


Personally, I think Anders/Justice is damn well fascinating. I probably won't end up writing multiple 50,000 word dissertations about him as I did with MGS2, but I think I have at least one pathetic nerd essay in me.

[SurelyForth]

I think that Anders monologuing about why he did it would be...too much like the game trying to tell you how to feel about it rather than letting you decide for yourself.

If you didn't notice that Elthina was sitting on her hands, that things were getting worse and nothing anyone could do or say was making any difference, then you didn't notice it and the game doesn't hand you that in a neat package with an attached summary.

If you did notice those things and paid attention to the fact that Anders was willing to work with templars, was willing to believe that Elthina might be someone who could be made to see how the situation was unfair for mages and endangering everyone, then the game allows you to address the act as one that made sense as something that was a culmination of frustration and failed alternatives.

What the game doesn't do is lead you by the hand to make you adore Anders, or force an understanding of the socio-political complexities of the situation, or justify the morality of what he's done and Meredith's response to what he's done. It's all left up to the player to decide how they feel about him, about mages v. templars v. the Chantry, and how they feel about an act of terrorism committed by someone they know and might call friend.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[erynnar]

Surely I agree, but I don't like him lying to me. That seems out of character. He says I have something I think you would like to be involved with and lies that it is a potion to make him and Justice separate (and yes, I get the irony of him thinking he will die for the cause as the cure for the link to Justice). But that stings. I too have noticed the Grand Cleric sitting on her ****ing hands, and I am not happy about it. If there was a "slap some sense and a spine" into that **** option, I would. I would prefer that Anders actually talk to my character at the estate, or something so I could side with him or not.

As to innocent priests? Sister Patrice blows that all to hell. Sure there are innocent ones in the Chantry, but Kirkwall seems a place that invites corruption.

[Vhalkyrie]

I found it strange when Anders said Justice didn't approve of his love for Hawke. When Justice inhabited the templar's dead body in Awakenings, he was very intrigued and envious of the man's love for his wife. He said spirits of the fade had no such emotions or stirrings to relate. He thought it was one of the few redeeming things about the world outside the fade.

So why disapprove now, when Anders develops real feelings for Hawke? In Awakenings, you got the impression that Anders was a playboy, and never bothered with love. But he is infatuated with Hawke to the point of obsession. And Justice disapproves?

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 27 mars 2011 - 05:58 .

[The Cannibal Factory]

mrsph wrote...

Anders isn't badly written.

Badly written character don't inspire this much rage.

Oo, burn!

[Kawamura]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I found it strange when Anders said Justice didn't approve of his love for Hawke. When Justice inhabited the templar's dead body in Awakenings, he was very intrigued and envious of the man's love for his wife. He said spirits of the fade had no such emotions or stirrings to relate. He thought it was one of the few redeeming things about the world outside the fade.

So why disapprove now, when Anders develops real feelings for Hawke? In Awakenings, you got the impression that Anders was a playboy, and never bothered with love. But he is infatuated with Hawke to the point of obsession. And Justice disapproves?

Time spent obsessing over Hawke means times not devoted to the cause.

Least, that's how I understood it.

[Lady Jess]

Kawamura wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I found it strange when Anders said Justice didn't approve of his love for Hawke. When Justice inhabited the templar's dead body in Awakenings, he was very intrigued and envious of the man's love for his wife. He said spirits of the fade had no such emotions or stirrings to relate. He thought it was one of the few redeeming things about the world outside the fade.

So why disapprove now, when Anders develops real feelings for Hawke? In Awakenings, you got the impression that Anders was a playboy, and never bothered with love. But he is infatuated with Hawke to the point of obsession. And Justice disapproves?

Time spent obsessing over Hawke means times not devoted to the cause.

Least, that's how I understood it.

Plus he may not understand how it works. I remember obsessing over guys I liked in high school. And once you actually got together with the object of your desire or found out it was mutual, you were then more happy and content than obsessed.

[erynnar]

And I see everyone's point, but I don't agree that the Anders from Awakenings would turn into the Anders in DA2. But I haven't played Awakenings in a while, so I may have to go back it.

But from my impression of DAA Anders, he was strong, stubborn, and preferred to run away rather than hurt others. He didn't kill Biff and the boys (he didn't do it), he just let the darkspawn get them. I would have too. He never struck me as jonsing to hurt the Chantry or hurt them. In fact he sides with Wynne in Awakenings when she tells of the conference and mages that want to be autonomous. Wynne (who is by Chantry rules an abonination herself) and Flemeth didn't get lobotomies with there spirits. So why would Anders suddenly become someone else?

I am really confused by the whole thing. I wish they had just made a new mage you meet in Kirkwall who escaped the tower instead. DA2 isn't a sequel to DAO to me (finding Morrigan and her baby or helping Morri against Flemeth, or finding the Architect would be sequels). It is a great story in the DA universe, but it isn't a sequel. I would have been happier with it, if they had brought over Isabela, and Merrill (making them major characters) and my character as a Ferelden escaping the Blight to tie it to DAO and just made it a new story. My love for the DA universe is such that, I would have delighted in DA2 as its own stand alone game with it's own sequels. Trying to make it a sequel but not really isn't doing it for me, nor is lobotomizing one of my favorite characters.

EEP! So let the flames begin.:wub:

Modifié par erynnar, 27 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[erynnar]

@Lady Jess true! Or even when you got together with the object of your affection it becomes contempt. ROFL!

[Blacklash93]

Why would Anders become somebody else?

... He's a Vengeance abomination now. Simple.