145 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

I certainly didn't trust him from the 1st second I met him in awakenings. His Bart Simpson like 'I didn't do it!" when he is in a room full of dead darkspawn and templars. I suspected he killed the templars or those remaining from minute one.

[Eternal Phoenix]

But Morrigan's baby is not canon last time I checked. Morrigan would only be for the one character I made that romanced her. The Architect could be killed but we know Flement is going to probably play a large role in future DA games and perhaps be an antagonist herself.

[The Cannibal Factory]

erynnar wrote...
I am really confused by the whole thing. I wish they had just made a new mage you meet in Kirkwall who escaped the tower instead.

*runs in*

BRING BACK FINN!

*runs out*

(For the record, I totally agree with your views on the Anders of Awakening and the oddity of Wynne by comparison.)

[Vhalkyrie]

[quote]erynnar wrote...

And I see everyone's point, but I don't agree that the Anders from Awakenings would turn into the Anders in DA2. But I haven't played Awakenings in a while, so I may have to go back it.

But from my impression of DAA Anders, he was strong, stubborn, and preferred to run away rather than hurt others. He didn't kill Biff and the boys (he didn't do it), he just let the darkspawn get them. I would have too. He never struck me as jonsing to hurt the Chantry or hurt them. In fact he sides with Wynne in Awakenings when she tells of the conference and mages that want to be autonomous. Wynne (who is by Chantry rules an abonination herself) and Flemeth didn't get lobotomies with there spirits. So why would Anders suddenly become someone else? [/quote]

Anders became someone else because he joined with Justice.  Justice was fueled by Ander's anger, and turned into Vengeance.

[quote]
I am really confused by the whole thing. I wish they had just made a new mage you meet in Kirkwall who escaped the tower instead.[/quote]
[/quote]

I'm glad it was Anders, and not some random new mage.  Anders and I had history and friendship together in Awakenings.  His shocking turn wouldn't have had the same attachment, or impact, otherwise.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 27 mars 2011 - 06:15 .

[Carn Dum]

I was neutral towards Anders in the Awakenings expansion: after having played DA:O he felt somewhat like an Alistair ripoff, but he was still somewhat fun. DA2 really turned Anders into a character of his own. I love him, he's so flawed and bad, but there's still a grain of truth to what he says and what he's fighting for. When I romanced him, deciding on what to do with Anders was one of the hardest decisions I had to take, in all of my (Bioware) RPG experience.

[Vhalkyrie]

Plus he may not understand how it works. I remember obsessing over guys I liked in high school. And once you actually got together with the object of your desire or found out it was mutual, you were then more happy and content than obsessed.

That's a good point.  Obsession and lust for Hawke could be interpreted by Justice as something to be deterred.

[Corto81]

ipgd wrote...

He can be a bit hard to take. His character arc is, in essence, just one long exercise in tragedy porn. If you aren't the type to get off on watching the complete destruction of a man's psyche, I can understand why some might dislike him.

But there's a huge, huge difference between a character that's easy to hate and a character that's poorly written. Often times characters are easy to hate because they are poorly written, but that is definitely not the case of Anders. He may be self-righteous, preachy, hypocritical, and stark raving mad, but he is certainly not poorly written. While there are many who are more immediately likeable, I don't think there is any character in the DA series that even approaches the amount of depth Anders has.

"They" certainly did kill Anders. That's the whole point.


Personally, I think Anders/Justice is damn well fascinating. I probably won't end up writing multiple 50,000 word dissertations about him as I did with MGS2, but I think I have at least one pathetic nerd essay in me.

That's your POV, and I respect it.

From my perspective though, now on Act 3 on my 3rd playthrough, I've yet to "feel his pain" or whatever, even though he's been in my party 90% of the time (yay, only one NPC healer...).

I didn't feel there was enough depth to it, and like most plots and sub-plots in DA2 (unlike DAO) the twists feel forced and unnatural.

The big issue with giving NPCs such huge roles where you can't infulence what they do is the feeling of being powerless and in a interactive movie instead of an RPG.

I (and hence all of my characters) absolutely hated Anders.
But in order not to reload every fight on Hard/Nightmare 8 times, he's gotta be in the party.
And despite trying to ditch him at every point, you're stuck with him, for TEN years.

[Corto81]

ipgd wrote...

He can be a bit hard to take. His character arc is, in essence, just one long exercise in tragedy porn. If you aren't the type to get off on watching the complete destruction of a man's psyche, I can understand why some might dislike him.

But there's a huge, huge difference between a character that's easy to hate and a character that's poorly written. Often times characters are easy to hate because they are poorly written, but that is definitely not the case of Anders. He may be self-righteous, preachy, hypocritical, and stark raving mad, but he is certainly not poorly written. While there are many who are more immediately likeable, I don't think there is any character in the DA series that even approaches the amount of depth Anders has.

"They" certainly did kill Anders. That's the whole point.


Personally, I think Anders/Justice is damn well fascinating. I probably won't end up writing multiple 50,000 word dissertations about him as I did with MGS2, but I think I have at least one pathetic nerd essay in me.

That's your POV, and I respect it.

From my perspective though, now on Act 3 on my 3rd playthrough, I've yet to "feel his pain" or whatever, even though he's been in my party 90% of the time (yay, only one NPC healer...).

I didn't feel there was enough depth to it, and like most plots and sub-plots in DA2 (unlike DAO) the twists feel forced and unnatural.

The big issue with giving NPCs such huge roles where you can't infulence what they do is the feeling of being powerless and in a interactive movie instead of an RPG.

I (and hence all of my characters) absolutely hated Anders.
But in order not to reload every fight on Hard/Nightmare 8 times, he's gotta be in the party.
And despite trying to ditch him at every point, you're stuck with him, for TEN years.

[ipgd]

erynnar wrote...

And I see everyone's point, but I don't
agree that the Anders from Awakenings would turn into the Anders in DA2.
But I haven't played Awakenings in a while, so I may have to go back
it.

But from my impression of DAA Anders, he was strong,
stubborn, and preferred to run away rather than hurt others. He didn't
kill Biff and the boys (he didn't do it), he just let the darkspawn get
them. I would have too. He never struck me as jonsing to hurt the
Chantry or hurt them. In fact he sides with Wynne in Awakenings when she
tells of the conference and mages that want to be autonomous. Wynne
(who is by Chantry rules an abonination herself) and Flemeth didn't get
lobotomies with there spirits. So why would Anders suddenly become
someone else?

I am really confused by the whole thing. I wish
they had just made a new mage you meet in Kirkwall who escaped the tower
instead. DA2 isn't a sequel to DAO to me (finding Morrigan and her baby
or helping Morri against Flemeth, or finding the Architect would be
sequels). It is a great story in the DA universe, but it isn't a sequel.
I would have been happier with it, if they had brought over Isabela,
and Merrill (making them major characters) and my character as a
Ferelden escaping the Blight to tie it to DAO and just made it a new
story. My love for the DA universe is such that, I would have delighted
in DA2 as its own stand alone game with it's own sequels. Trying to
make it a sequel but not really isn't doing it for me, nor is
lobotomizing one of my favorite characters.

EEP! So let the flames begin.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

Justice was gasoline to Anders's flame and each of them exacerbated the others' worst attributes in a way that twisted the both of them into something much more grotesque than simple sum of their parts.

It is explained in his short story that Justice eventually convinced Anders, when they were separate, that he needed to fight for the mages to be free. He did express something of a cowardice and aversion to conflict in the matter, but it wasn't such a strongly held conviction that it's unbelievable that Justice swayed him into thinking otherwise.

I like it much better with Anders. If they had just created a new set of characters, his gradual decline wouldn't have been nearly as impactful as it was. It's sad specifically because you remember how he used to be before this whole mess. Sure, Anders sort of had to die in the process, but you need to rape a few minds to make good tragedy porn.

[erynnar]

Um Wynne is one, so is Flemeth. And all the tales, Flemeth was pretty much out for Flemeth always. So I don't see Justice becoming Vengence when I didn't get that hate from Anders in the first place. Did he like what happened with the tamplars? No, but he ran instead of confronting. He addressed it with humor, he wanted to have a pretty girl and be able to shoot lightening at fools. I never got that he carried around a secret festering hate, so deep it would take a supposedly strong spirit of a virtue (not some wimpy good Fade spirit that shines light out of Wynne's bum) and turn it into vengence. So, no, not simple. Nate Howe? Sure, he had a lot of hate, for his mother, for the Warden, for losing his home, then for his father. If Justice could have gone into Howe, I could see him becoming vengence.

[erynnar]

Nice story, still doesn't ring with the Anders they gave us. So that just makes my disappointment deepen. Meh, whatever. I'll shut up now, because it just depresses me.

[DoNotIngest]

erynnar wrote...

Um Wynne is one, so is Flemeth. And all the tales, Flemeth was pretty much out for Flemeth always. So I don't see Justice becoming Vengence when I didn't get that hate from Anders in the first place. Did he like what happened with the tamplars? No, but he ran instead of confronting. He addressed it with humor, he wanted to have a pretty girl and be able to shoot lightening at fools. I never got that he carried around a secret festering hate, so deep it would take a supposedly strong spirit of a virtue (not some wimpy good Fade spirit that shines light out of Wynne's bum) and turn it into vengence. So, no, not simple. Nate Howe? Sure, he had a lot of hate, for his mother, for the Warden, for losing his home, then for his father. If Justice could have gone into Howe, I could see him becoming vengence.

It always annoys me how he went from just wanting a nice gal to being in a relationship with Karl. I mean, look, I have no problems with anybody's sexuality, but whereas he seemed heterosexual in Awakening, he seems decidedly homosexual in this one. Like if Leliana had mentioned only liking women in Origins, then only liked men in DA2. It's nothing to do with prejudice, it's just that as a part of their character, it shouldn't be manipulated so much. Wynne was fine with her spirit; Why does Anders' spirit change every tiny little aspect of him? From shooting lightning to being a healer, witty banter to brooding sulking, staying out of trouble to being a rebel. I see where they're coming from, and if other examples of Spirit + Mage = Completely different person, it would make sense. I just don't see why they have to be so inconsistent about it.

[Vhalkyrie]

Wynne was fine with her spirit because she was at peace with herself. Anders was not. While Anders was light hearted in Awakenings, he definitely presented some deep seated resentment towards the Templars. Justice stirred those feelings and manifested them in Vengeance. In Act 1 and 2, you can see a lot of old Anders. The defining moment that changed him was nearly killing the mage girl (or if you let him kill her). If you read the codex, it says Anders is losing, if not lost, to Vengeance.

[ipgd]

erynnar wrote...

Um Wynne is one, so is Flemeth. And all the tales, Flemeth was pretty much out for Flemeth always. So I don't see Justice becoming Vengence when I didn't get that hate from Anders in the first place. Did he like what happened with the tamplars? No, but he ran instead of confronting. He addressed it with humor, he wanted to have a pretty girl and be able to shoot lightening at fools. I never got that he carried around a secret festering hate, so deep it would take a supposedly strong spirit of a virtue (not some wimpy good Fade spirit that shines light out of Wynne's bum) and turn it into vengence. So, no, not simple. Nate Howe? Sure, he had a lot of hate, for his mother, for the Warden, for losing his home, then for his father. If Justice could have gone into Howe, I could see him becoming vengence.

Anders escaped from the Circle seven times. He mentions that after his last escape prior to Awakening, he was kept in solitary confinement for an entire year -- yet even after that, he refused to submit to the Circle. Do you think he would have kept trying to escape if he didn't feel an incredibly strong compulsion to be free? It's true that the Anders in Awakening was operating largely out of a sense of self-interest, but it was clearly an immensely impassioned sense of self-interest, one that could easily metastasize into the mission he pursues in DA2; ultimately, Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders want exactly the same thing, with just as much conviction, but DA2 Anders desperately wants it for every mage, not just himself.

His humor is pretty easily interpretable as a defense mechanism. With what he's gone through, even looking solely at what he tells you in Awakening, it's a little hard to believe that he was completely stable and well-adjusted. Plus, Awakening only takes place over the course of a few weeks or a month at most, which isn't a terribly long time to explore Anders's personality beyond the superficial fronts he presented to the outside world.  If there was really nothing more to Awakening Anders than pretty girls and shooting lightning at fools, I say that would be more of a testament to the lack of depth to Awakening Anders than anything, but again, I don't think that's true or was true.

DoNotIngest wrote...

It always annoys me how he went from just wanting a nice gal to being in a relationship with Karl. I mean, look, I have no problems with anybody's sexuality, but whereas he seemed heterosexual in Awakening, he seems decidedly homosexual in this one. Like if Leliana had mentioned only liking women in Origins, then only liked men in DA2. It's nothing to do with prejudice, it's just that as a part of their character, it shouldn't be manipulated so much. Wynne was fine with her spirit; Why does Anders' spirit change every tiny little aspect of him? From shooting lightning to being a healer, witty banter to brooding sulking, staying out of trouble to being a rebel. I see where they're coming from, and if other examples of Spirit + Mage = Completely different person, it would make sense. I just don't see why they have to be so inconsistent about it.

We never saw what Wynne was like before she was inhabited by her spirit. For all we know, she could have been a radically different person. More likely, though, is that Wynne was simply a much less... intense individual than either Anders or Justice, and there wasn't much inherent conflict between her passive personality and a benign spirit of faith. In the case of Anders and Justice, both are very impassioned people with many fundamentally conflicting world views that must manifest itself with deeply troubling cognitive dissonance in the Justice/Anders merged entity.

As for the bisexuality thing: Awakening Anders never expresses one way or the other how he feels about men. The only thing you could really conclude from Awakening is that he has a preference for women, which isn't really contradicted by DA2. His sexuality takes a huge back seat to his mission in DA2, and the only person he really expresses any interest in is Hawke; the only reason he brings up Karl largely seems to be for the purpose of gauging a male Hawke's interest without outright asking him if he would be interested in men, but even then, he explains his relationship with Karl in a way that points more towards a pansexual identity than homosexuality or bisexuality.

But, really, the guy was a bit of a fruit. For me, it wasn't much of a stretch to graduate from "earring-wearing metrosexual who knits and baby talks to his cat" to "would bone a guy if he liked him enough". Of all the characters for bisexuality to seem out of place with, I don't think Anders is really one of them.

[Kawamura]

DoNotIngest wrote...



It always annoys me how he went from just wanting a nice gal to being in a relationship with Karl. I mean, look, I have no problems with anybody's sexuality, but whereas he seemed heterosexual in Awakening, he seems decidedly homosexual in this one. Like if Leliana had mentioned only liking women in Origins, then only liked men in DA2. It's nothing to do with prejudice, it's just that as a part of their character, it shouldn't be manipulated so much. Wynne was fine with her spirit; Why does Anders' spirit change every tiny little aspect of him? From shooting lightning to being a healer, witty banter to brooding sulking, staying out of trouble to being a rebel. I see where they're coming from, and if other examples of Spirit + Mage = Completely different person, it would make sense. I just don't see why they have to be so inconsistent about it.

Nooooo. Bad.

He doesn't exactly seem completely heterosexual in Awakening. I know he said to my male warden in Blackmarsh, "I'm scared, hold me". He's... Anders. Even after Karl, the comments he makes aren't GAY they're the sort of thing you'd hear from someone who'd identify as pansexual. That's someone that likes men, women and everything in between.

Jesus bloody christ, can't someone be bi- or pansexual? Just because he doesn't mention he likes dudes in Awakening doesn't mean that he's straight. And just because he slept with Karl doesn't mean he's gay, either.

Nothing to do with prejudice my ass. Next you'll be telling me you've got a gay black tranny Jewish female friend whose converting to Islam, so it's totes cool.

[Wulfram]

I think both Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders are good characters taken on their own, but I'm not really convinced by the transition. Particularly with the timescale being so short.

@Corto - You can get by without a healer fine if you're prepared to spend money on potions. Mythal's Favour grenades, and for tougher fights Life Ward potions if anything do a better job at keeping your guys on their feet.

[Vhalkyrie]

A bisexual friend of mine says he is attracted to women primarily, but if a man is interesting enough, then he may be interested in them too. He's not primarily attracted to gay men who are the equivalent of Isabela - hoes that sleep with anything. I think of him when I think of Anders. I think Anders is just Hawke-sexual, whether man or woman, he can't help his feelings. If Hawke wasn't around, he wouldn't be interested in kissing, feelings or sex at all. He'd have a singular purpose for his cause. Hawke is a distraction, to Justice's disapproval.

If you're not comfortable with that, then just heartbreak him the first time the option comes up. Take the rivalry hit, if you do it early, it's easy enough to make up. He never propositions you again.

Geez. Why must every Anders thread go back to sexuality?

[DoNotIngest]

Kawamura wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...



It always annoys me how he went from just wanting a nice gal to being in a relationship with Karl. I mean, look, I have no problems with anybody's sexuality, but whereas he seemed heterosexual in Awakening, he seems decidedly homosexual in this one. Like if Leliana had mentioned only liking women in Origins, then only liked men in DA2. It's nothing to do with prejudice, it's just that as a part of their character, it shouldn't be manipulated so much. Wynne was fine with her spirit; Why does Anders' spirit change every tiny little aspect of him? From shooting lightning to being a healer, witty banter to brooding sulking, staying out of trouble to being a rebel. I see where they're coming from, and if other examples of Spirit + Mage = Completely different person, it would make sense. I just don't see why they have to be so inconsistent about it.

Nooooo. Bad.

He doesn't exactly seem completely heterosexual in Awakening. I know he said to my male warden in Blackmarsh, "I'm scared, hold me". He's... Anders. Even after Karl, the comments he makes aren't GAY they're the sort of thing you'd hear from someone who'd identify as pansexual. That's someone that likes men, women and everything in between.

Jesus bloody christ, can't someone be bi- or pansexual? Just because he doesn't mention he likes dudes in Awakening doesn't mean that he's straight. And just because he slept with Karl doesn't mean he's gay, either.

Nothing to do with prejudice my ass. Next you'll be telling me you've got a gay black tranny Jewish female friend whose converting to Islam, so it's totes cool.

This is why I almost didn't say anything.

[Lady Jess]

erynnar wrote...

Um Wynne is one, so is Flemeth. And all the tales, Flemeth was pretty much out for Flemeth always. So I don't see Justice becoming Vengence when I didn't get that hate from Anders in the first place. Did he like what happened with the tamplars? No, but he ran instead of confronting. He addressed it with humor, he wanted to have a pretty girl and be able to shoot lightening at fools. I never got that he carried around a secret festering hate, so deep it would take a supposedly strong spirit of a virtue (not some wimpy good Fade spirit that shines light out of Wynne's bum) and turn it into vengence. So, no, not simple. Nate Howe? Sure, he had a lot of hate, for his mother, for the Warden, for losing his home, then for his father. If Justice could have gone into Howe, I could see him becoming vengence.

There actually was some serious underlying Anger with Anders in awakening. When I talked to him at the tree in maranthine I saw it, with the statue of Andraste too I think. Even agreeing with him he was quite RAWR about it. Then he would snap back to funny Anders, like he buried it.

[Kawamura]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...



It always annoys me how he went from just wanting a nice gal to being in a relationship with Karl. I mean, look, I have no problems with anybody's sexuality, but whereas he seemed heterosexual in Awakening, he seems decidedly homosexual in this one. Like if Leliana had mentioned only liking women in Origins, then only liked men in DA2. It's nothing to do with prejudice, it's just that as a part of their character, it shouldn't be manipulated so much. Wynne was fine with her spirit; Why does Anders' spirit change every tiny little aspect of him? From shooting lightning to being a healer, witty banter to brooding sulking, staying out of trouble to being a rebel. I see where they're coming from, and if other examples of Spirit + Mage = Completely different person, it would make sense. I just don't see why they have to be so inconsistent about it.

Nooooo. Bad.

He doesn't exactly seem completely heterosexual in Awakening. I know he said to my male warden in Blackmarsh, "I'm scared, hold me". He's... Anders. Even after Karl, the comments he makes aren't GAY they're the sort of thing you'd hear from someone who'd identify as pansexual. That's someone that likes men, women and everything in between.

Jesus bloody christ, can't someone be bi- or pansexual? Just because he doesn't mention he likes dudes in Awakening doesn't mean that he's straight. And just because he slept with Karl doesn't mean he's gay, either.

Nothing to do with prejudice my ass. Next you'll be telling me you've got a gay black tranny Jewish female friend whose converting to Islam, so it's totes cool.

This is why I almost didn't say anything.

What? You can want a nice girl and you can have a man be your first. It's not a big deal. It's also not a big personality influencer, either, as being gay or pan or bi or whatever -- doesn't exactly hold the sting in their world as it does in ours.

I mean. Think about it? How often has your sexual orientation really had an effect on your personality? Outside of, say, people reacting to it.

[Addai]

There's not enough to like to counterbalance the bad. That makes him pretty one-dimensional for me: One long whine followed by a big bang. I can see the appeal of his romance, but only from a distance that's safe from the melodrama and breathy declarations of love and tragedy.

Not poorly written, but not enough to make it all work IMO. All of the NPC companions suffer from the game being too short and our interaction with them being limited, but especially so for someone with as much going on as Anders.

[ipgd]

On the off-topic subject of Anders's sexuality: does he ever actually express a base sexual interest in men, beyond the obvious "has sex with men" thing? From what I recall, the only comments he ever makes regarding his interest in Karl or male Hawke are entirely based on a "personal" level, and he actually seems to identify the physical sameness as an obstacle he overlooks rather than indicating that it is attractive to him in the same way women are. He's obviously MSM, but that's doesn't necessarily even indicate that he is physically attracted to men at all.

[Kawamura]

ipgd wrote...

On the off-topic subject of Anders's sexuality: does he ever actually express a base sexual interest in men, beyond the obvious "has sex with men" thing? From what I recall, the only comments he ever makes regarding his interest in Karl or male Hawke are entirely based on a "personal" level, and he actually seems to identify the physical sameness as an obstacle he overlooks rather than indicating that it is attractive to him in the same way women are. He's obviously MSM, but that's doesn't necessarily even indicate that he is physically attracted to men at all.

Uhhhh.

Unlike Zevran, he doesn't have any "strong hands" comments that I remember (will keep an ear out for it this time), but at the point Justice is around it's hard for me to imagine Anders expressing much in the way of, well, any attraction to anything. It's all a sort of "overcoming" process.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Corto81 wrote...


I didn't feel there was enough depth to it, and like most plots and sub-plots in DA2 (unlike DAO) the twists feel forced and unnatural.

I am curious, what do you mean by no depth?  I really honestly want to know as I've seen this argument made a lot on the forums and I'm wondering what you mean by depth.  What is your definition of depth (in this context)?  What makes it shallow?

Again, I mean no harm.  I really am just curious.

[Trophonius]

ipgd wrote...

On the off-topic subject of Anders's sexuality: does he ever actually express a base sexual interest in men, beyond the obvious "has sex with men" thing? From what I recall, the only comments he ever makes regarding his interest in Karl or male Hawke are entirely based on a "personal" level, and he actually seems to identify the physical sameness as an obstacle he overlooks rather than indicating that it is attractive to him in the same way women are. He's obviously MSM, but that's doesn't necessarily even indicate that he is physically attracted to men at all.

No, he doesn't mention any attraction to other men besides Karl and male Hawke. The only comment he makes about Hawke's appearance is, "well, under that scruffy exterior, I'd say you have a bit of a soft heart yourself." Still, I don't think it means he's not physically attracted to men. After all, personality is more substantive to him than physical appearance. He doesn't want to place specifications on love because of that reason. In which case, he exudes elements of demisexuality.