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[Goldens]

Despite the possession, I was unconvinced by that much change to his character within a short time.

I enjoyed DA2 Anders with my first playthrough, on the pro-mage track. But I felt he was a missed opportunity. I think it would have been more entertaining to have left him as two distinct personalities that are old Anders and Justice, and have them sometimes disagree. And have Anders mutter some of those arguments aloud. Hawke would see the crazy building as an argument first appears, maybe in Act 2, and become more frequent in Act 3.

He still could have done all the same things in the game, because Justice either persuades Anders fully to his cause, or else takes over. Either option may have left Anders as a more sympathetic character.

Modifié par Goldens, 28 mars 2011 - 04:44 .

[Asdara]

Goldens wrote...

Despite the possession, I was unconvinced by that much change to his character within a short time.

I enjoyed DA2 Anders with my first playthrough, on the pro-mage track. But I felt he was a missed opportunity. I think it would have been more entertaining to have left him as two distinct personalities that are old Anders and Justice, and have them sometimes disagree. And have Anders mutter some of those arguments aloud. Hawke would see the crazy building as an argument first appears, maybe in Act 2, and become more frequent in Act 3.

He still could have done all the same things in the game, because Justice either persuades Anders fully to his cause, or else takes over. Either option may have left Anders as a more sympathetic character.

There is a lot of merit to this line of thought.  I would say it might be addressed with DLC at some point where we could then see this taking place, but it would have to be done with the utmost precision considering the abbreviated (read: screwy) timeline overlap they have cornered themselves in by putting Anders in contact with Justice (and therefore in Awakenings) and in the Free Marches pretty much as the Blight is ending... which I have no idea how that got justified or done and if anyone does concretely know I'd love to get a link or a full write up on it either here or as a message.

[SirLysander]

There is no "Anders" in DA2.  There is, however, the demon, Vengance, walking around in an Anders-skin suit, trying to convince everyone and himself, that there is an "Anders" remaining within.

In Awakening, Anders (may he rest in peace) was a rather happy-go-lucky guy.  Yes, he escaped the Circle: he wanted freedom.  Freedom from structure, freedom from order (Anders and the Qun would NOT get along well, for example), freedom from most - but not all - rules and regulations.  He also had a fairly healthy respect for the Chantry and it's religion, witht he sole exception that he wanted to be free.  Anders and the end of Awakening is a logical conclusion to Anders at the beginning of Awakening.

Justice, on the other hand, became that which he did not like.  Thrown from the Fade, he was forced into the Kristoff's corpse (which was very, very fresh) where he had access to some, but not all, of Kristoff's memories and feelings.  At first, he wants nothing but to go back to the Fade - after he helps the Warden.  Justice even comments that he belives he CAN go back, merely by letting go of Kristoff's flesh and becoming incorporeal (and ex-corpse).  However, he starts to like it here.  The mortal world is so much more interesting to Justice than the Fade was.  He gets to hear lyrium sing (an ability he seems to lose very quickly in DA2, but I digress), he gets to hear the voices of those gone before (from the "fingerprints upon fingerprints" dialog) and everything is much more permanent.  He wants to stay - and therefore, becomes a Demon.

Get to Kirkwall in DA2, and you meet Vengence/Justice/Anders-skin suit.  If Vengence/Justice can read the memory and feelings of a fresh corpse, imagine what it can do when it moves in (and evicts the current tenant) of a living body.  Vengance manipulated Anders into making the invitation, and that was the last time free, living, Anders drew breath.  His personality changes, what is important is no longer (Justice having problem with an "Anders"/Hawke ship?  Think about how he felt about how attached living Anders was to Ser Pounce-a-Lot - "Why do you imprison that animal?" The Wardens didn't make Anders give the cat away, Vengence discarded it because it's not suited to Vengence's purpose.)  Vengence's arc in DA2 is clear: there are some vestiges of Anders' personality still there at the beginning, but by the end, even the remaining traces are gone.

[Killjoy Cutter]

SirLysander wrote...

There is no "Anders" in DA2.  There is, however, the demon, Vengance, walking around in an Anders-skin suit, trying to convince everyone and himself, that there is an "Anders" remaining within.

In Awakening, Anders (may he rest in peace) was a rather happy-go-lucky guy.  Yes, he escaped the Circle: he wanted freedom.  Freedom from structure, freedom from order (Anders and the Qun would NOT get along well, for example), freedom from most - but not all - rules and regulations.  He also had a fairly healthy respect for the Chantry and it's religion, witht he sole exception that he wanted to be free.  Anders and the end of Awakening is a logical conclusion to Anders at the beginning of Awakening.

Justice, on the other hand, became that which he did not like.  Thrown from the Fade, he was forced into the Kristoff's corpse (which was very, very fresh) where he had access to some, but not all, of Kristoff's memories and feelings.  At first, he wants nothing but to go back to the Fade - after he helps the Warden.  Justice even comments that he belives he CAN go back, merely by letting go of Kristoff's flesh and becoming incorporeal (and ex-corpse).  However, he starts to like it here.  The mortal world is so much more interesting to Justice than the Fade was.  He gets to hear lyrium sing (an ability he seems to lose very quickly in DA2, but I digress), he gets to hear the voices of those gone before (from the "fingerprints upon fingerprints" dialog) and everything is much more permanent.  He wants to stay - and therefore, becomes a Demon.

Get to Kirkwall in DA2, and you meet Vengence/Justice/Anders-skin suit.  If Vengence/Justice can read the memory and feelings of a fresh corpse, imagine what it can do when it moves in (and evicts the current tenant) of a living body.  Vengance manipulated Anders into making the invitation, and that was the last time free, living, Anders drew breath.  His personality changes, what is important is no longer (Justice having problem with an "Anders"/Hawke ship?  Think about how he felt about how attached living Anders was to Ser Pounce-a-Lot - "Why do you imprison that animal?" The Wardens didn't make Anders give the cat away, Vengence discarded it because it's not suited to Vengence's purpose.)  Vengence's arc in DA2 is clear: there are some vestiges of Anders' personality still there at the beginning, but by the end, even the remaining traces are gone.

Interesting hypothesis.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Asdara wrote...

There is a lot of merit to this line of thought.  I would say it might be addressed with DLC at some point where we could then see this taking place, but it would have to be done with the utmost precision considering the abbreviated (read: screwy) timeline overlap they have cornered themselves in by putting Anders in contact with Justice (and therefore in Awakenings) and in the Free Marches pretty much as the Blight is ending... which I have no idea how that got justified or done and if anyone does concretely know I'd love to get a link or a full write up on it either here or as a message.

I would love to see a timeline.  There's just enough gap to cram in Awakening, maybe.  Lothering doesn't actually fall until some time into the events of Origins.  The clock starts at that moment, with Hawke and crew fleeing the fall of Lothering.  It takes a certain amount of time for Hawke and crew to sail to travel to Kirkwall, and then we get an immediate additional year before Hawke can meet Anders. 

[Asdara]

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Asdara wrote...

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

[Avilia]

SirLysander wrote...

There is no "Anders" in DA2.  There is, however, the demon, Vengance, walking around in an Anders-skin suit, trying to convince everyone and himself, that there is an "Anders" remaining within.

In Awakening, Anders (may he rest in peace) was a rather happy-go-lucky guy.  Yes, he escaped the Circle: he wanted freedom.  Freedom from structure, freedom from order (Anders and the Qun would NOT get along well, for example), freedom from most - but not all - rules and regulations.  He also had a fairly healthy respect for the Chantry and it's religion, witht he sole exception that he wanted to be free.  Anders and the end of Awakening is a logical conclusion to Anders at the beginning of Awakening.

Justice, on the other hand, became that which he did not like.  Thrown from the Fade, he was forced into the Kristoff's corpse (which was very, very fresh) where he had access to some, but not all, of Kristoff's memories and feelings.  At first, he wants nothing but to go back to the Fade - after he helps the Warden.  Justice even comments that he belives he CAN go back, merely by letting go of Kristoff's flesh and becoming incorporeal (and ex-corpse).  However, he starts to like it here.  The mortal world is so much more interesting to Justice than the Fade was.  He gets to hear lyrium sing (an ability he seems to lose very quickly in DA2, but I digress), he gets to hear the voices of those gone before (from the "fingerprints upon fingerprints" dialog) and everything is much more permanent.  He wants to stay - and therefore, becomes a Demon.

Get to Kirkwall in DA2, and you meet Vengence/Justice/Anders-skin suit.  If Vengence/Justice can read the memory and feelings of a fresh corpse, imagine what it can do when it moves in (and evicts the current tenant) of a living body.  Vengance manipulated Anders into making the invitation, and that was the last time free, living, Anders drew breath.  His personality changes, what is important is no longer (Justice having problem with an "Anders"/Hawke ship?  Think about how he felt about how attached living Anders was to Ser Pounce-a-Lot - "Why do you imprison that animal?" The Wardens didn't make Anders give the cat away, Vengence discarded it because it's not suited to Vengence's purpose.)  Vengence's arc in DA2 is clear: there are some vestiges of Anders' personality still there at the beginning, but by the end, even the remaining traces are gone.

It did seem a quick jump from "that sounds hard" in Awakenings to "we joined to do something about the mages plight" in DA2 (paraphrased).

[AtreiyaN7]

He's a well-written character. The whole point is that he's changed drastically, and not for the better in terms of his mental health/stability. Still, he does have flashes of the old snarky humor. I think it's sort of a natural progression for his character from Awakening.

[Killjoy Cutter]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

Watch the map and the status of Lothering while travelling around.  Given travel times, it has to be weeks at least before the town falls to the darkspawn horde. 

[Kotetsimaru]

I like to think that Vengeance/Justice has corrupted Anders and as the game/years go by that corruption grows. By the end of the game it's obvious Anders pretty much can't control him anymore, he practically turns into Merediths polar opposite. While she believes there are blood mages hiding behind every corner Anders instead sees injustice against mages, he even starts accusing party members in party banter at one point.
I think the whole blowing up of the Chantry wasn't even Anders but Vengeance, I mean when he does blow it up he is fighting for control.

[Maria Caliban]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I did find him interesting in Awakening. I didn't find him interesting and never used him in DA 2. Then he pops up at the end to blow up a building.

I think of him less as a companion and more as a walking theme and plot dispenser.

He does seem written to be convenient to the desired plot, player romance preferences, etc, as opposed to as an actual character.   Or maybe I'm just associating him with the railroad he's central too in the game.  Meh.  Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if we'd been given a chance to stop him.

At the end of his Act 2 qyest, after he murders the mage girl, you can dismiss him from the group and he says he'll leave Kirkwall. Then you'll constantly walk into bases and see little cutscene where he's chatting with other teammates and you'll find his manifesto all over your estate three years later. BioWare didn't even bother to consider whether someone would keep him or not.

[Asdara]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

Watch the map and the status of Lothering while travelling around.  Given travel times, it has to be weeks at least before the town falls to the darkspawn horde. 

Weeks to Lothering... I don't know - It was over two weeks journey from Orzammar to the Circle according to that really sweet misguided girl there that wanted to join them - or something like that.  If that map is to scale... I'd figure ok maybe a week and a half, two if you're limping about?  Give or take four days or so.  

The question is: did Hawke's family leave as the the horde's fringe was arriving, that did seem to be the case with the numbers we were seeing and the Ogres involved.  We know they re-massed towards Denerim at some later point, but they swallowed up Lothering after you completed the 1st major quest line completion if I recall correctly.  THAT scenario at least puts the Wardens firmly "out of reach" but makes us all blunder on the question of why the Warden and the Champion don't cross paths - talking to people in Lothering was pretty much THE main activity there.  

So, if we want to avoid that, we have to put Hawke's family's flight more directly after Ostagar, as soon as Aveline and Carver could make it back on their own.  Of course, you figure in the boat-ride to Kirkwall would have taken some time, it still doesn't mesh up though - since Awakenings happens, what? about six months after the Blight ends?  That puts Awakenings on a pretty tight time constraint to get done in time for Anders to have not only arrived at Kirkwall, but also founded a sewer clinic and gained enough loyalty for the Ferelden refugee committee to be sticking their necks out for him.

Not quite fitting yet.  Thoughts?  It's a serious puzzle for me.

Meanwhile!  Anders news (or maybe you already know, I didn't): in Act 3, at the start, you get the Justice ability with the two scales that puts Anders into battle mage mode - even if you didn't buy it.  I am playing through and had him on passive abilities to keep him from killing us all with inattention and boom, first time I had him in my party in Act 3 he was destructo-mage instead of my nice healer.  So the gameplay itself seems to shift to the control of Justice in some subtle ways as Anders falls off the edge - or jumps, as one would have it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Asdara wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

Watch the map and the status of Lothering while travelling around.  Given travel times, it has to be weeks at least before the town falls to the darkspawn horde. 

Weeks to Lothering... I don't know - It was over two weeks journey from Orzammar to the Circle according to that really sweet misguided girl there that wanted to join them - or something like that.  If that map is to scale... I'd figure ok maybe a week and a half, two if you're limping about?  Give or take four days or so.  

The question is: did Hawke's family leave as the the horde's fringe was arriving, that did seem to be the case with the numbers we were seeing and the Ogres involved.  We know they re-massed towards Denerim at some later point, but they swallowed up Lothering after you completed the 1st major quest line completion if I recall correctly.  THAT scenario at least puts the Wardens firmly "out of reach" but makes us all blunder on the question of why the Warden and the Champion don't cross paths - talking to people in Lothering was pretty much THE main activity there.  

So, if we want to avoid that, we have to put Hawke's family's flight more directly after Ostagar, as soon as Aveline and Carver could make it back on their own.  Of course, you figure in the boat-ride to Kirkwall would have taken some time, it still doesn't mesh up though - since Awakenings happens, what? about six months after the Blight ends?  That puts Awakenings on a pretty tight time constraint to get done in time for Anders to have not only arrived at Kirkwall, but also founded a sewer clinic and gained enough loyalty for the Ferelden refugee committee to be sticking their necks out for him.

Not quite fitting yet.  Thoughts?  It's a serious puzzle for me.

What I meant when refering to the travel times is that you can move around Ferelden a lot, on foot, before Lothering actually falls.  The moment it falls, the icon for the town switches to a skull or some such, and you can't travel there any more.  But that doesn't happen right away after you leave -- it seems to take the horde quite some time to get there.  And that's all time that Origins is going on, and Hawke's flight from Lothering hasn't started yet -- we know from their discussion in the opening sequence that the horde has just now taken Lothering.

(Wesley makes one comment that makes it seem like Lothering fell quickly after the battle of Ostagar, but given how much the Warden can travel across the whole span of Ferelden on foot before it actually happens in Origins, this is simply an error by BioWare.)

[Killjoy Cutter]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I did find him interesting in Awakening. I didn't find him interesting and never used him in DA 2. Then he pops up at the end to blow up a building.

I think of him less as a companion and more as a walking theme and plot dispenser.

He does seem written to be convenient to the desired plot, player romance preferences, etc, as opposed to as an actual character.   Or maybe I'm just associating him with the railroad he's central too in the game.  Meh.  Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if we'd been given a chance to stop him.

At the end of his Act 2 qyest, after he murders the mage girl, you can dismiss him from the group and he says he'll leave Kirkwall. Then you'll constantly walk into bases and see little cutscene where he's chatting with other teammates and you'll find his manifesto all over your estate three years later. BioWare didn't even bother to consider whether someone would keep him or not.

I haven't seen him kill the mage yet, but if any of my Hawkes had seen him do it, they'd have killed him themselves.  Which of course, you can't. 

[ThatDancingTurian]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

If they changed the VA because of the bigger part Cullen got in this game - well, it'd be damn stupid imo to not give Cullen a new voice instead. Cullen was a minor NPC in DA:O and is a supporting character at best in DA2. Anders was a companion in Awakening and is argueably one the five most important characters in DA2, if not the single most important. Who in their right mind would hesitate even a second as to who should keep his VA? Besides, why not let Ellis do both? There seem to be lots of cases in which one VA did more than one character.

I have never brought not-Anders along with any of my Hawkes, and probably never will. Which sucks, as his story does have a lot of potential...

Anders was hardly important. What he did was important (arguably), and anyone could have done it.

I'm much happier with Greg Ellis as Cullen, personally. He might have brought some integrity to Anders2, but I doubt his voice alone could have saved the character.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

He's a well-written character. The whole point is that he's changed drastically, and not for the better in terms of his mental health/stability. Still, he does have flashes of the old snarky humor. I think it's sort of a natural progression for his character from Awakening.

Well-written?

Anders: It's not like we can actually hold conversations.
...
Justice: Anders has told me about you.

Anders' story was rife with plot-holes, inconsistencies and a total lack of development.

[SurelyForth]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Well-written?

Anders: It's not like we can actually hold conversations.
...
Justice: Anders has told me about you.

Anders' story was rife with plot-holes, inconsistencies and a total lack of development.

If you're talking about Justice in the Fade, he actually says "Anders has told you of me." And, even if he did say that Anders has told him about Hawke, it still isn't a plot hole. Saying "Anders has told me" is simply the easiest way to explain how it is that Justice knows Hawke without getting into the weird, metaphysical or horribly off-putting. You know what he means, and it sounds way less creepy than "I have seen you through Anders' eyes" or "Anders thinks about you all of the time when he should be editing his manifesto."

Modifié par SurelyForth, 29 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

SurelyForth wrote...

If you're talking about Justice in the Fade, he actually says "Anders has told you of me." And, even if he did say that Anders has told him about Hawke, it still isn't a plot hole. Saying "Anders has told me" is simply the easiest way to explain how it is that Justice knows Hawke without getting into the weird, metaphysical or horribly off-putting. You know what he means, and it sounds way less creepy than "I have seen you through Anders' eyes" or "Anders thinks about you all of the time when he should be editing his manifesto."

Nothing really needed to be said in that moment anyway. It's not like we didn't know who he was. Besides, Anders was so insistent that they were basically the same person that having him pop up as a distinct entity just confuses the point. I still say they were written inconsistently.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 29 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[Knight of Flowers]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

If you're talking about Justice in the Fade, he actually says "Anders has told you of me." And, even if he did say that Anders has told him about Hawke, it still isn't a plot hole. Saying "Anders has told me" is simply the easiest way to explain how it is that Justice knows Hawke without getting into the weird, metaphysical or horribly off-putting. You know what he means, and it sounds way less creepy than "I have seen you through Anders' eyes" or "Anders thinks about you all of the time when he should be editing his manifesto."

Nothing really needed to be said in that moment anyway. It's not like we didn't know who he was. Besides, Anders was so insistent that they were basically the same person that having him pop up as a distinct entity just confuses the point. I still say they were written inconsistently.

 
                       
Whether or not Anders or Justice are
the same entity is complicated, and intentionally left ambiguous.

It's dependant on Hawke's
relationship with him. If you pursue Friendship, then Anders is at peace with
his cause and by extension Justice, making them more of a single being.

If you pursue Rivalry, he's
constantly doubting his cause, causing separation and friction with Justice, making
them separate beings.

The problem is the ending is bugged, so you get the
'Justice and I are one" conversation even if you did Rivalry. <_<

Modifié par Knight of Flowers, 29 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

Watch the map and the status of Lothering while travelling around.  Given travel times, it has to be weeks at least before the town falls to the darkspawn horde. 

So why the hell were they waiting around for so long? It's not like they had no clue the blight was spreading. Hawke's family could have gotten away with plenty of time.

Modifié par MelfinaofOutlawStar, 29 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

Watch the map and the status of Lothering while travelling around.  Given travel times, it has to be weeks at least before the town falls to the darkspawn horde. 

So why the hell were they waiting around for so long? It's not like they had no clue the blight was spreading. Hawke's family could have gotten away with plenty of time.

For Carver to get back from Ostagar, I'm guessing, based on the first dialogue / cutscene.

PS:  I think I may have missed some of Asdara's points when responding as quoted up there.  Too much multitasking, I think.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 29 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[Tyrium]

I don't have a problem with the way he changed (well, except his sexuality if you play a male, but I play female so he stays straight for me, which makes more sense.) Everything else, the merger with Justice explains. It wasn't a quick change. Go back through his Awakening dialogue, you can see a lot of the beginnings of where he went in DA2.

The companions shape themselves around Hawke much more in this game. The sexuality of all the LIs (except Isabella) depends on Hawke's gender, and their personality depends on friendship or rival interactions with Hawke. Its a design decision, but I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Modifié par Tyrium, 29 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You're right that Lothering doesn't fall until maybe 1/3rd into Origins, but Hawke and Co. are fleeing closer to the Ostagar event then the fall of Lothering - which I say because Weasly went to look for Aveline and was traveling away from that part of the horde with her (as they discuss when choosing directions to flee) and Carver was also at the battle for the betrayal, Aveline recognizes him, and it is insinuated that he returned home to gather up the family and flee the oncoming horde. Yet, Flemeth does say that the last two wardens in Ferelden are "out of reach" by the time we're on the road... then again, Weasly's life is being counted in hours not days at that point, so "back in town" might be the same as "out of reach" by that point, who knows? She's out of the hut though and on the move, so clearly it's been a least a few days between the Battle of Ostagar and her encounter with Hawke.

Travel time from Ostagar to Lothering? Hawke had to have left before the Wardens came through - I'd think anyway - so I am not even sure where to put the most basic events of the starting sequence in relation to the DAO timeline. I would really love them to publish something in this area so we can stop making half-measure guesses on basic things like "when" and "where" and get back to the "why" that we all love to wrap ourselves up in.

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

Watch the map and the status of Lothering while travelling around.  Given travel times, it has to be weeks at least before the town falls to the darkspawn horde. 

So why the hell were they waiting around for so long? It's not like they had no clue the blight was spreading. Hawke's family could have gotten away with plenty of time.

For Carver to get back from Ostagar, I'm guessing, based on the first dialogue / cutscene.

PS:  I think I may have missed some of Asdara's points when responding as quoted up there.  Too much multitasking, I think.

But he mention's Leliana being in Lothering(not by name) so you were there before or around when the Warden was and Lothering takes a while to be consumed so I'm not buying that.

[SirLysander]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You have a point. Leliana is picked up in Lothering before its demise. I believe Carver even mentions an odd sister outside the tavern. There was a couple days between the fall of Ostagar(where Felemeth plucks you from the rooftops) and when Lothering is overrun. Was Hawke and company just skipping around town waiting for the horde at the last minute? The Wardens and Hawke's family had to have been in town at the same time at some point.

Watch the map and the status of Lothering while travelling around.  Given travel times, it has to be weeks at least before the town falls to the darkspawn horde. 

So why the hell were they waiting around for so long? It's not like they had no clue the blight was spreading. Hawke's family could have gotten away with plenty of time.

For Carver to get back from Ostagar, I'm guessing, based on the first dialogue / cutscene.

PS:  I think I may have missed some of Asdara's points when responding as quoted up there.  Too much multitasking, I think.

But he mention's Leliana being in Lothering(not by name) so you were there before or around when the Warden was and Lothering takes a while to be consumed so I'm not buying that.

The problem with mapping a timeline is that.... there is no timeline.  Or, at least, there's no consistent timeline.
In DA:O, for a Mage origin (ironically, an Amell origin) it's been "about a year" since the events following your Harrowing and Conscription into the Wardens and your return as a Warden to the Tower (per, Wynne, from memory.). While that technically works, in and of itself when imposed onto a "Destruction of Lothering" timeline, when compared to the other Origin stories - especially the Cousland one - it seems a bit off on the high side.
 
However, where the timeline is really stretched to incredulity is the post “Destruction of Lothering” (DOL) events. DA2 states that it’s at best 15 months from the DOL to the end of the Blight – Travel overland from Lothering to Gwaren, plus sea travel from Gwaren to Kirkwall, plus the year indenture. All that travel time can’t be *more* than three months as the events in Kirkwall prior to the year indenture are too closely tied to events prior to travel/meeting Flemeth.
 
So, in those 15 months, the warden has to enlist the three groups of allies, travel to the mountains to get the Ashes, sidetrack to Soldier’s Peak and Hommlet, er, Honnleth for Shale, have the Landsmeet, execute the traitor, March to Redcliff to march back to Denerim, get through the City, kill the archdemon, have the rightful King crowned, wait six months for Awakening to start, travel all over the Arling of Amaranthine (albeit a smaller area than all of Ferelden), defeat the Mother and/or Architect, then have the Warden-Commander bugger off so that the incoming batch of Wardens have enough time to NOT know it was the Warden-Commander that gave Ser Pounce-a-Lot to Anders (and found Ser Pounce-a-Lot to be a useful quasi-party member), get Anders mindwiped by Justice’s invasion, get Justice to Kirkwall (same travel time as the Hawke group)  AND get Justice established as the apostate healer in Darktown. In under 15 months, remember – and only at most(!) NINE MONTHS of which are “useable” as there’s still that six month delay between Origin and Awakening.


Edit: a tag seemed to have gotten lost on the prior editing.

Modifié par SirLysander, 29 mars 2011 - 01:05 .

[Asdara]

The critical issue here is if the Warden and the Champion could have crossed paths in Lothering and what that means for the Anders displacement from Awakenings timeline. He HAS to have been in Amaranthine, he has Justice with him and talks with Varric about adventures in Blackmarsh - but that may not leave him time to have also been established in Kirkwall when we meet him 1 year after fleeing X point in the Blight.