63 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I'm going to go with: because Bioware wanted her to be. That seems like a really solid reason for me. She's kind of a central character, and is one of the few that cannot die at any point during either of the first two games.

Yes I get the reason but I wanted a reason.  In-game why would Shepard agree to keep her on-board (immediately after picking her up) when she can't contribute to day-to-day operations and doesn't need to be on the Normandy to utilize her expertise.

izmirtheastarach wrote...
I'm surprised that anyone actually bothered to argue with you, after your first text wall response. You clearly are only doing this for the enjoyment of the argument, and nothing anyone says going to alter your position.

 
I often get this, and I suppose I give that impression, but it isn't like that.  I do enjoy a good debate but I'm not tied down to any particular position (as shown in the post just before yours).  The problem is people make arguments based on their reasoning which differs from mine, and that makes it very hard to sway me.  To me if something doesn't have a practical function it should be discarded, and if it has a practical function that's only needed occassionally (Liara's Prothean knowledge) it should be set aside rather than carried around.  For example I very rarely need my passport so I don't carry it with me.  I never need a blender so I don't have one.

That was what I needed, and eventually found, a practical reason to drag Liara around every day.  Her Prothean knowledge doesn't work because we don't need it every day, her combat abilities didn't work because when the decision is made we haven't seen her demonstrate any.  So without a practical function that required her constant presence I couldn't understand keeping her on the ship.  However I have found a practical function she could serve (even if we never see her do it) so I'm satisfied.

[izmirtheastarach]

It just seems like there's far more of a plot explanation then one you could actually call practical. While you are correct about her Prothean knowledge not being needed every minute, it is needed after particular missions, and it might be a tad annoying to have to fly all the way back to the citadel to consult with her.

And say what you will, but the entire purpose of this thread was to get a bunch of responses from people that you could argue against. Which you did.

[patocerda]

After reading, I'd say:

-Prothean Knowledge, and
-She needs protection

Anyway, all my Sheps like her, so she's staying.

[Seboist]

Liara being able to be in a frontline combat squad is one of those gameplay elements that doesn't make much sense from a story perspective. If I was Shep leading a squad into heavy combat I'd be taking experienced and durable fighters like Wrex,Grunt,Ashley,Zaeed,Garrus,etc not the likes of Liara and Tali.

It only makes sense to bring Liara/Tali into a mission if their special skills are required for something and even then they should be following behind in a second squad while Shep's combat squad is leading the way.

So yeah like previously said Liara is charging in and breaking down doors with Shep because Bioware wanted it.

[izmirtheastarach]

She is an Asari, and it's well known that Asari are all biotic. That's all she has really. I don't imagine it's al that hard to learn how to fire a pistol as well. And there is nothing forcing you to use her in combat. Who knows, maybe she had some commando training along the way, though if that's the case they likely would have mentioned it.

[MissFish]

- she needs protecting. For the first game, the Normandy has plot immunity. Very safe.
- The protheons and reapers are very similar. You need an expert.
- She's pretty. The Normandy needs something pretty.
- Bioware said so.
- she's not a krogan, the girl doesn't take up that many resources.
- Two camels in a tiny car. Your argument is now invalid.

Modifié par MissFish, 29 mars 2011 - 12:34 .

[Haventh]

You really managed to forget all about her biotic abilities. And the minor fact that Saren hunts her. Also, if she is on the ship, her prothean expertise is more easily accessible.

[izmirtheastarach]

Haventh wrote...

You really managed to forget all about her biotic abilities. And the minor fact that Saren hunts her. Also, if she is on the ship, her prothean expertise is more easily accessible.

Yep. As I recall, you'd have to fly all the way back to the citadel after missions to meld with her, and she would not be able to confront her mother at all.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 29 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[DPSSOC]

izmirtheastarach wrote...
It just seems like there's far more of a plot explanation then one you could actually call practical.

 
Yes there is, and while I accept that these things happen it's still nice to have in-story(game) explanations rather than just accepting that that's how the story goes.  Lord of the Rings for example; why the hell is Frodo, a weak, small, inexperienced hobbit being tasked with carrying the One Ring?  Well hobbits have proven to be resistant to the influence of the Ring, the Ring is a corrupting force so might as well limit the number of people corrupted, and those more powerful who'd have a better chance of success would also be better able, and as such more tempted, to use the power of the Ring themselves.  Those are all explained and justified within the story the reader doesn't have to shrug their shoulders and go, "Well I guess Frodo's taking the ring cause that's what the authour decided.

izmirtheastarach wrote...
While you are correct about her Prothean knowledge not being needed every minute, it is needed after particular missions, and it might be a tad annoying to have to fly all the way back to the citadel to consult with her.

True though it depends on how you play the game.  I leave picking her up til the end so I only need to consult with her once.

Haventh wrote...

You really managed to forget all about her biotic abilities. And the minor fact that Saren hunts her. Also, if she is on the ship, her prothean expertise is more easily accessible.

Ok I need you to step back and look at this strictly from Shepard's point of view (not yours).  When you meet her, and decide to have her stay on-board what Biotic abilities has she demonstrated?  None.  She has demonstrated only the ability to trap herself in a Prothean bubble as well as mental instability if you leave her til your 3rd or 4th mission.  As for Saren hunting her there are other places she can be safe (Arcturus for example).  I will give you the ease of access though as a practical reason.

izmirtheastarach wrote...
Yep. As I recall, you'd have to fly all the way back to the citadel after missions to meld with her, and she would not be able to confront her mother at all.

Both of which are irrelevant to my Sheps (your experiences may vary).  I can meld with her immediately after picking her up and find out I need to go to Ilos (she's just stopped being immediately useful) and her mother is long dead.

I'll give you the inconvenience of flying back to the Citadel as a practical reason to keep her on board, but so what if she can't confront her mother?  Who cares?  I'm going to Peak 15 to beat whatever information I can out of her not play Dr. Phil.  It's not like we get anything particularly useful out of having her their either (yes she's helpful in combat but we don't get any more information or get it any easier).

[izmirtheastarach]

I suppose since Shepard is the player character it's entirely up to you to provide whatever motivation you think valid for keeping her on board. Really she's only there because Shep wants her to be. You're totally right that there is no clear reason, and she does seem to lack a specific job on the ship. So it's really up to you.

In ME2 it seems like everyone has even more of a specific role as a crew member of the Normandy. But at the end of the day, other then the initial companions, everyone is there just because Shep invited them to be. The same is mostly true in ME1.

[Lee337]

People have given plenty of reasons for her to stay on board.
The main mission is called race against time. Why waste time by leaving her somewhere when theres plenty of space and resources to keep her? It makes very, very little sense to leave her somewhere. And if you don't want her on board? Pick her up after Feros Noveria ond Virmire are done. Then you can be happy and the rest of us can enjoy having her help out.

[DPSSOC]

izmirtheastarach wrote...
I suppose since Shepard is the player character it's entirely up to you to provide whatever motivation you think valid for keeping her on board. Really she's only there because Shep wants her to be. You're totally right that there is no clear reason, and she does seem to lack a specific job on the ship. So it's really up to you.

In ME2 it seems like everyone has even more of a specific role as a crew member of the Normandy. But at the end of the day, other then the initial companions, everyone is there just because Shep invited them to be. The same is mostly true in ME1.

Good point.

Lee337 wrote...
People have given plenty of reasons for her to stay on board.
The main mission is called race against time. Why waste time by leaving her somewhere when theres plenty of space and resources to keep her? It makes very, very little sense to leave her somewhere. And if you don't want her on board? Pick her up after Feros Noveria ond Virmire are done. Then you can be happy and the rest of us can enjoy having her help out.

So this is what a broken record feels like.  Again, and again and again apparently, I do not have anything against Liara being on-board, that's not what this thread is about.  My issue is there seems to be no reason to keep her on board.  She's dead weight, she contributes nothing to the running of the ship yet still consumes resources.  In any sealed environment with finite resources one would think someone who consumes but doesn't contribute would be best left elsewhere.  I have since found something she could be doing so that she would be contributing and am now satisfied that she is not dead weight hence I no longer question her presence on board.

Her expertise just wasn't enough of a reason to me considering we only make use of it twice (at most).  I do leave Liara til after Feros, Noveria, and Virmire not because I dislike the character but because that's the progression that makes the most sense to me.

Feros: Lost contact with a colony could be Saren launching another attack, top priority
Noveria: Suspected Geth sightings (pretty sure that's how it's sold to you), worth investigating
Virmire: Saren's base of operations, go now
Therum: An Asari scientist who may have valuable information.

Starting off I have 2 chances of possibly running into, and killing, Saren or an opportunity to gain intel.  Given the danger Saren poses I jump on the opportunity to take him down quick (not saying it's the right choice it's the one I made).  After killing his right hand I find out an STG unit investigating Saren is sending out an S.O.S. chances are they've found something and allies may be in trouble, the scientist can wait.

[Almostfaceman]

DPSSOC wrote...

My issue is there seems to be no reason to keep her on board. 

When I pick her up I'm picking her up for two reasons:
1. She's a Prothean expert 
2. She's wanted by Saren which means she has intel I need whether she knows it or not

I don't have the option of dumping her off and picking her up later - I have no idea if where I'm dropping her off can keep her safe from Saren.  I don't know if I can get back to her location when I need Prothen information or other insight.  I want her immediately available for Prothen intel when and if necessary.  She's worth her weight in gold and in the end she proves that by helping me decipher my Prothean visions and keying on Ilos.  

[Lee337]

This finite rescources arguement you have... they can stock up everywhere they go, and thanks to army rations, they will last a long time. You worry about rescources, but not the fuel you burn to go drop her off, or go back and see her. During this time you would have also used more resources than if you had just got on with the mission.
For example
There are 20 crew members. Each member eats 3 ration packs a day, and uses 2 litres of Oxygen (I don't know how gas is measured?).
A round trip to the citadel takes 1 day. You drop Liara off after picking her up, and also go back to get her to learn of Ilos. Thats 1.5 days of resources used.
During the 1.5 days, 60 rations are eaten and 40 litres of oxygen used.
Therefore Liara could stay on the Normandy for 20 days before exceeding the cost of the trip. Add in fuel costs etc and the number of days would be higher.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Grey Ranger wrote...
If you listen to her conversation, she does explain that she has been in some fights before. She mentions that she has never been in a situation that her biotics couldn't get her out of.

 
Except the one you had to haul her blue *** out of.  Which if memory serves is the least combat we see all game (not the drive up just after going into the ruins).

Look at it from a story perspective.

Liara is against...

- Atleast 6 flying droids.
- A couple of geths
- A krogan battlemaster (they are extremly dangerous remember?), can't remember if he was a biotic but I don't think he was.

While it might not be much from a gameplay perspective (especially with how overpowered biotics were), it still sound rather dangerous and suicidal to go against such odds alone. Remember there were also a ****load of Geth outside the mine, who is to say she did not flee from more?

Onboard the ship she is a prothean expert, very important.

[Wulfram]

The game doesn't do a particularly good job of justifying taking her along on combat missions - we could have done with a cutscene of her doing something impressive with her biotics at least - but it makes sense to keep her on board as a prothean expert and to keep her out of Saren's hands

[H4nniba11]

Okay, as Liara fan I feel compelled to jump in. About Liara's mental stability: Stay floating in air, not being able to move, without food or drinks only thing to watch a blue energy field about week(?) and watch how mentally stable you are. She only have minor feelings of halucinating. Second thing: As you pick her up (before other missions) she instantly helps you to understand vision. Third thing: As you first pick her with you on the field she kicks everyone's ass. The last but not the least: She is hot.

[The Grey Ranger]

Lizardviking wrote...


Look at it from a story perspective.

Liara is against...

- Atleast 6 flying droids.
- A couple of geths
- A krogan battlemaster (they are extremly dangerous remember?), can't remember if he was a biotic but I don't think he was.

While it might not be much from a gameplay perspective (especially with how overpowered biotics were), it still sound rather dangerous and suicidal to go against such odds alone. Remember there were also a ****load of Geth outside the mine, who is to say she did not flee from more?

Onboard the ship she is a prothean expert, very important.

According to the Prima guide and the wikia, he is indeed a biotic.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The Grey Ranger wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...


Look at it from a story perspective.

Liara is against...

- Atleast 6 flying droids.
- A couple of geths
- A krogan battlemaster (they are extremly dangerous remember?), can't remember if he was a biotic but I don't think he was.

While it might not be much from a gameplay perspective (especially with how overpowered biotics were), it still sound rather dangerous and suicidal to go against such odds alone. Remember there were also a ****load of Geth outside the mine, who is to say she did not flee from more?

Onboard the ship she is a prothean expert, very important.

According to the Prima guide and the wikia, he is indeed a biotic.

Which just makes it more obvious that it would be an even more dangerous and suicidal thing to stand and fight.

[Elvis_Mazur]

DPSSOC wrote...
quote]PetrySilva wrote...

And you couldn't just say, "Hey Anderson this person's important, keep them safe."  C-Sec isn't capable of protecting her (ok they're probably not but still)?

Since the beggining the Counil said it's possible Saren had agents in the Citadel. If that's true, what are the chances of some them being in C-sec or having C-sec friends?

Anyway, as a stealth ship, and considering Saren's power, influence and connections, the Normandy was the safest place for her.

Yes the Normandy would be safest but is it the only safe place?  Is there not somewhere with more disposable resources (like a submarine food, water, etc are really valuable and hard to come by in a pinch) she would be safe?

I think it had other safe places, but the Normandy was probably the best.

PetrySilva wrote...

I don't doubt her ability just her fortitude.  Being a nerd might not mean she has no skills but it does suggest she'll hold up under pressure as well as a pop can.

We don't know exactly how was her trainning in biotics, but I would suggest that that part of her life gave her some skills in "being sane" under battle's pressure.

Why would it?  She was the daughter of a powerful matriarch and a scientist, exactly what about that upbrining screams a need for combat training beyond basic self-defense?

To begin with, how was her trainning like? The answer is: we don't know.


This is all pure speculation.

[Malanek]

She is the most knowledgable person in the galaxy in regards to the protheans. She has insight into her mother. She has a link to Saren who wants her. She has more knowledge and skills directly applicable to the mission than any other squadmate.

[Gabey5]

the whole game centeres around prothean artifacts.. she is a prothean specialist

[Ashira Shepard]

DPSSOC wrote...


Garrus, like every Turian, served in the Turian Military (in the codex it mentions all Turians serve at least a little if memory serves), Wrex has centuries of combat experience, and Tali possesses skills that can only be used on the Normandy that don't involve combat.  Liara has nothing.  We see her react to danger by hiding and when I get to her she believes she's hallucinating.  So no displayed combat ability plus displayed mental instability equals somebody I don't want to bring into a fight (and I don't).

This is a moment of "the devs think of everything" - you're supposed to go after her first because hey! she's a prothean expert and can help figure out just WTF is going on with the vision that got crammed into Shepard's head.

You took too long getting to her, and she's spent a decent ammount of time just floating there. Doing nothing but float. It probably crossed her mind after the first few days that she would die there without anyone ever finding her. So by the time you finally get over there, she's more than a little disbelieving that someone is actually there to save her.

How would you be after a week or so of just floating in silence in the same position, without food, water or anything else? There's a reason isolation is used as a punishment. (If you think it's no big deal, try standing in an awkward position for a straight hour without moving at all.)

Bonus Points: And moments after you let her out, you get attacked by Geth and a Krogan. And she immediately lifts that krogan with her brain. That's the very first thing she did whenever I got to that bit.

Also, "fortitude"? Liara is the "Squishy Wizard" character, heard of it? Similar to the "Glass Cannon" only they just take less time to kill rather than going down in one strike. Squishy Wizards are powerful by themselves, but they can't hold out against large numbers. And fighting 10-15 armed people at once, without a goddamn GUN, is actually difficult, believe it or not.

Once More: In terms of squadmates who don't contribute to the day-to-day running of the ship? You might as well drop most of the 12 man squad in ME2 if you're going to go with that.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 30 mars 2011 - 10:59 .

[CmdrKankrelat]

Reason she's on the Normandy: For her protection (Shepard says it him/herself)

What she's doing: For all I know she's playing extranet poker, but remember those Prothean data disks you tend to uncover if you poke around star systems and planet surfaces. I like to imagine she's having fun unlocking the mysteries of those in the lab while not out gunning-and-running with Shepard.