63 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Rifneno wrote...

It's better to save the arrogant crap for when you're actually right about something.

... and? It's to demonstrate the darker side of magic, it isn't the "anti-mage" agenda that you keep crying about. They showed magic has a dark side, that isn't an anti-mage agenda. It's showing that it has a darker side, which it does.

Just like they show templar as having a darker side, though you don't see people crying about it every five seconds that it's anti-templar. People won't immediately side with the Templar because of the actions of Quentin just like people won't side with the Mages because of the actions of Alrik.

Though admittedly, that might be a long wait for you from what I've seen.

I'll never be right when I'm arguing with a brick wall, 'tis true.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 mai 2011 - 11:13 .

[Rifneno]

I love how you put "anti-mage" in quotes, and refer to an agenda. The one who said anti-mage was YOU.

Also, it's insulting to Varric for you to use him as an avatar.  Seriously.

Modifié par Rifneno, 09 mai 2011 - 11:18 .

[Dave of Canada]

I quote "anti-mage" because it's something I've heard in dozens of threads before?

"ALAIN IS BLACK TO PROVOKE SUBCONSCIOUS RACISM BECAUSE DA2 IS ANTI-MAGE"
"EVERY MAGE IN THE GAME TURNS EVIL BECAUSE THE GAME IS ANTI-MAGE"
"MAGES AREN'T OVERPOWERED BECAUSE THEY WANT PLAYERS TO HATE THE class BECAUSE OF ANTI-MAGE"

Then you came into this thread and say:

The scenes of RAWR! MAGES EVIL! ZOMBIE WIFE GO! were retarded on multiple levels.

I just meant the tone of the quest that was designed to shock value people into thinking maybe the right of annulment isn't so bad because of one psychopath

Don't pretend like you're not trying to say the quest is anti-mage.

Also, it's insulting to Varric for you to use him as an avatar.  Seriously.

I'm hurt.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 mai 2011 - 11:23 .

[Sussurus]

Outside of whether it was a ROA driven choice...
Which oddly did not effect me as you only find out after playing the templar angle once before...
Then it only made me want to slap Orsino not kill all mages.

The idea was good, it could have had an impact on me if not the fact mother dearest was underused till then.
I liked the after affects in the mansion, and I loved Gamlen's part as it showed him more as a relative than mommy.

[TEWR]

at first I loved the quest.


Then, after thinking about how Hawke finds out 4 times prior to ATR that white lilies are sent to women who vanish, he doesn't even think to investigate, I became irked. Hell he doesn't even bother to tell his mother there's a killer running loose after he does Prime Suspect? I realize it's not exactly good dinner conversation, but Gascard said that the killer sends his victims white lilies in the mail. I would've brought it up and told her that if that happened, STAY INSIDE THE ESTATE.

It's good at first. then you notice the flaws it holds. It could've been done better. I mean, if you could at least tell the City Guard to investigate, close in on Quentin a few times and he relocates, you tell the Templars to get off their ass (which Moira says she'll do, but they never do).

It would've been good if you were actually investigating because it was such a threat to Kirkwall. This is your home and you don't even bother to protect it from a serial killer?

[The Baconer]

Dave of Canada wrote...
"ALAIN IS BLACK TO PROVOKE SUBCONSCIOUS RACISM BECAUSE DA2 IS ANTI-MAGE"

Honestly, that was the most hilarious, and disturbing, accusation I've ever seen on this forum.

[Rifneno]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I quote "anti-mage" because it's something I've heard in dozens of threads before?

"ALAIN IS BLACK TO PROVOKE SUBCONSCIOUS RACISM BECAUSE DA2 IS ANTI-MAGE"

So you confused me with IanPolaris for some reason?  Great.  Chalk up another thing you're wrong about.  Who says a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut?

[Sherbet Lemon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

"ALAIN IS BLACK TO PROVOKE SUBCONSCIOUS RACISM BECAUSE DA2 IS ANTI-MAGE"

 
*sporfle*

No way.  I am a flummoxed.  Someone really didn't use that as an argument in a templar/mage debate, did they?  Oh goodness, they didn't.  They couldn't have!    Argh.

[The Baconer]

Village Idiot wrote...
*sporfle*

No way.  I am a flummoxed.  Someone really didn't use that as an argument in a templar/mage debate, did they?  Oh goodness, they didn't.  They couldn't have!    Argh.

Oh, you think you're flummoxed now? If only you were in that thread at the time...

[tek427]

This was definitely one of the more emotional quests of DAII. It's not so much the fact that Mother died, it was how. If my mother were turned into a Frankenstein zombie wife, I'd be disturbed beyond words.

However, it definitely seems to encourage Hawke to go pro-templar and I agree that I would like to have the option for Hawke to be more sad than "don't worry, mother, I'll be fine." The options given kinda (just kinda) degraded the moment a bit. I also wish Carver/Bethany could've been there, even temperarily just to help out with the search. But overall it's a good quest.

[Sherbet Lemon]

The Baconer wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...
*sporfle*

No way.  I am a flummoxed.  Someone really didn't use that as an argument in a templar/mage debate, did they?  Oh goodness, they didn't.  They couldn't have!    Argh.

Oh, you think you're flummoxed now? If only you were in that thread at the time...

Oh no, sounds like I should be glad I wasn't there!  I think I tried those discussions once or twice......so now I just lurk.  I must have missed all the fun that day!

To be on topic:  All That Remains makes me sad and stuff. *ahem*

[Emeraq]

Rockworm503 wrote...

All the miserable things that happen around Hawke I really wish there was a sad option on the wheel. Nothing bugs me more than my whole family dying and Hawke acting like its no big deal.

My entire family didn't die, I still had a sister at the end of my game.

[Dave of Canada]

Rifneno wrote...

So you confused me with IanPolaris for some reason?  Great.

It's called an example of the "anti-mage agenda" behavior that's on these forums, I didn't say you said it. Though, if it'll make you feel better you can go on believing I was.

Chalk up another thing you're wrong about.  Who says a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut?

You're hilarious, you should do stand up!

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 mai 2011 - 02:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Village Idiot wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

"ALAIN IS BLACK TO PROVOKE SUBCONSCIOUS RACISM BECAUSE DA2 IS ANTI-MAGE"

 
*sporfle*

No way.  I am a flummoxed.  Someone really didn't use that as an argument in a templar/mage debate, did they?  Oh goodness, they didn't.  They couldn't have!    Argh.

You missed out on the "mages are property of the Chantry" argument made by the pro-Chantry side and how mages are only innocent of being mages, and are exploding kittens, as a response to Anders blowing up the Chantry and the Circle mages being innocent of Anders' actions.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

"ALAIN IS BLACK TO PROVOKE SUBCONSCIOUS RACISM BECAUSE DA2 IS ANTI-MAGE"

 
*sporfle*

No way.  I am a flummoxed.  Someone really didn't use that as an argument in a templar/mage debate, did they?  Oh goodness, they didn't.  They couldn't have!    Argh.

You missed out on the "mages are property of the Chantry" argument made by the pro-Chantry side and how mages are only innocent of being mages, and are exploding kittens, as a response to Anders blowing up the Chantry and the Circle mages being innocent of Anders' actions.

My favorite is the "mages are walking nuclear weapons" analogy.  I can only assume they think "nuclear" is a brand name of assault rifle.

[TJPags]

Oh come on now.

This is turning into ANOTHER mages are persecuted thread? Really?

Is nothing in this game safe from the mage/templar debate?

[LobselVith8]

-Skorpious- wrote...

It was too little too late. Hawke's mother was a rather unimportant character in terms of plot significance/interaction, so her death wasn't exactly a tear jerker. Perhaps if she was given a larger role (which I honestly expected since family was supposed to be a major theme in DA2), then I may have cared more.

That's part of the problem with DA2, they give you family and don't really give you a chance to know them. We lose one sibling,  but it's hard to feel the loss of someone you didn't even know.

-Skorpious- wrote...

Plus, it simply felt too forced; an event added purely for the shock factor. Not the decision to kill Hawke's mother mind you, but the actual implementation itself. It would have, in my opinion, been so much better if Leandra was killed by mages - no, not a lone crazed blood mage, but a group of mages who were trying to prove something to the templars, Hawke, and even Kirkwall with the death of select innocents.

That doesn't make any sense. What would the murder of one woman prove to anyone? Why would mages even need to prove anything to a pro-mage Hawke who doesn't approve of the Chantry controlled Circles?

-Skorpious- wrote...

That would have driven home the assumption that all mages need to be locked in the Gallows; would have truly given Hawke a reason to dislike mages.

No, it wouldn't. It would be the actions of criminals who don't reflect the behavior of the multitude of men, women, and children who don't mirror this behavior. It's like saying that having the carta murder Leandra would mean that Hawke should hate all dwarves, including Varric.

-Skorpious- wrote...

A schizophrenic man who kills for personal gain is a poor motivator compared to the sinister plotting of an entire group.

I didn't think the murder of Leandra was that powerful when Hawke seems to forget about it in Act III.

[-Skorpious-]

LobselVith8 wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

Plus, it simply felt too forced; an event added purely for the shock factor. Not the decision to kill Hawke's mother mind you, but the actual implementation itself. It would have, in my opinion, been so much better if Leandra was killed by mages - no, not a lone crazed blood mage, but a group of mages who were trying to prove something to the templars, Hawke, and even Kirkwall with the death of select innocents.

That doesn't make any sense. What would the murder of one woman prove to anyone? Why would mages even need to prove anything to a pro-mage Hawke who doesn't approve of the Chantry controlled Circles?

In my defense, I did say select innocents and not just Leandra. =p

Anyways, for my scenario to work, it would involve rewriting parts of act 1 and act 2 (such as forcing Hawke to work for the templars for example). For the most part it was simply wishful thinking. 

-Skorpious- wrote...

That would have driven home the assumption that all mages need to be locked in the Gallows; would have truly given Hawke a reason to dislike mages.

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it wouldn't. It would be the actions of criminals who don't reflect the behavior of the multitude of men, women, and children who don't mirror this behavior. It's like saying that having the carta murder Leandra would mean that Hawke should hate all dwarves, including Varric.

As players, we have knowledge Hawke does not. Speaking from a purely lore standpoint, Hawke risks the wrath of the templars, the strongest force in Kirkwall, in openly supporting the mages (who are second class citizens at best) - people who can manipulate powerful energy from another realm. Most citizens, out of jealousy or fear, would shun such beings from society (which is why the Circle is so widely supported by the local populace). What is to say that Hawke, who is still a regular person, is immune to such suspicions and distrust? Especially if they play a part in the murder of his/her mother. Plus, we have to remember that as a medieval fantasy people of difference from the majority were generally harshly oppressed and considered inferior or "less human". 

Of course this requires heavy roleplaying, which I frequently do when playing RPG's, so maybe this doesn't apply to everyone.  

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 10 mai 2011 - 03:17 .

[The Baconer]

TJPags wrote...

Oh come on now.

This is turning into ANOTHER mages are persecuted thread? Really?

Is nothing in this game safe from the mage/templar debate?

Debating the rights of fictional beings is serious business.

[LobselVith8]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Hey, at least it would have given mages more depth other than "Stop accusing us of blood magic! Not all of us practice such forbidden arts! Well, actually I do. So does my friend. And his friend. And my friends friend and his..."

It's a bad place to be a mage. When you discover that the Gallows is an enviornment where mages are getting 30 lashes for talking to civilians, raped, and illegally made tranquil, I can see it as a sufficient reason for mages to use the only type of magic that templars don't have the power to nullify completely.

-Skorpious- wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't make any sense. What would the murder of one woman prove to anyone? Why would mages even need to prove anything to a pro-mage Hawke who doesn't approve of the Chantry controlled Circles?

In my defense, I did say select innocents and not just Leandra. =p

Anyways, for my scenario to work, it would involve rewriting parts of act 1 and act 2 (such as forcing Hawke to work for the templars for example. For the most part it was simply wishful thinking. 

Why would a pro-mage Hawke work for the templars? Why not allow our choices to have agency and allow our distinct paths to actually change the flow of the story and the ultimate outcome of the protagonist and Kirkwall?

-Skorpious- wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it wouldn't. It would be the actions of criminals who don't reflect the behavior of the multitude of men, women, and children who don't mirror this behavior. It's like saying that having the carta murder Leandra would mean that Hawke should hate all dwarves, including Varric.

As players, we have knowledge Hawke does not. Speaking from a purely lore standpoint, Hawke risks the wrath of the templars, the strongest force in Kirkwall, in openly supporting the mages (who are second class citizens at best) - people who can manipulate powerful energy from another realm.

If we import the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Magi, then the Fifth Blight was ended by a mage who the people of Ferelden (and possibly the Ferelden refugees) see as blessed by the Maker. The Circle of Ferelden could have been brought to aid the armies against the darkspawn horde. Also, Hawke has a sister who is a mage, or Hawke is a mage himself and lost his sister to the Ogre, and was raised by an apostate father. I can see that the protagonist would be willing to side with the mages, even if it meant bringing the templars' wrath down on him. He would be doing what he thinks is right.

-Skorpious- wrote...

Most citizens, out of jealousy or fear, would shun such beings from society (which is why the Circle is so widely supported by the local populace).

Actually, Cullen mentions that people are starting to help the mages and distrust the templars in Kirkwall.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[-Skorpious-]

LobselVith8 wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't make any sense. What would the murder of one woman prove to anyone? Why would mages even need to prove anything to a pro-mage Hawke who doesn't approve of the Chantry controlled Circles?

In my defense, I did say select innocents and not just Leandra. =p

Anyways, for my scenario to work, it would involve rewriting parts of act 1 and act 2 (such as forcing Hawke to work for the templars for example. For the most part it was simply wishful thinking. 

Why would a pro-mage Hawke work for the templars? Why not allow our choices to have agency and allow our distinct paths to actually change the flow of the story and the ultimate outcome of the protagonist and Kirkwall?

Again, just an example. Consider this example then - Hawke needs to enter Kirkwall. Instead of the local guard handling the refugee situation, Kirkwall officials send the Templars instead. Hawke converses with the templars, cue Meredith's entrance, Meredith agrees to let Hawke into the city in return for select services (use your imagination as to why she would want a mages help, as it really isn't the point here).

Working with the templars in these regards would function similar to the mercenary/smuggler choice in DA2, except that the mage/templar conflict is introduced earlier. After Hawke fulfills his/her service, the story can diverge as the player/plot see's fit.

Again - this is just a possible example. 

-Skorpious- wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, it wouldn't. It would be the actions of criminals who don't reflect the behavior of the multitude of men, women, and children who don't mirror this behavior. It's like saying that having the carta murder Leandra would mean that Hawke should hate all dwarves, including Varric.

As players, we have knowledge Hawke does not. Speaking from a purely lore standpoint, Hawke risks the wrath of the templars, the strongest force in Kirkwall, in openly supporting the mages (who are second class citizens at best) - people who can manipulate powerful energy from another realm.

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Hawke has a sister who is a mage or is a mage himself, and was raised by an apostate father, I can see that the protagonist would side with the mages, even if it meant bringing the templars' wrath down on him. He would be doing what he thinks is right.

One of my Hawke's hates her sister and father for their special "gift". Not every Hawke has to adore mages and consider helping them to be the "right" decision. 

-Skorpious- wrote...

Most citizens, out of jealousy or fear, would shun such beings from society (which is why the Circle is so widely supported by the local populace).

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, Cullen mentions that people are starting to help the mages and distrust the templars in Kirkwall.

Hmm, must've missed this conversation. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 10 mai 2011 - 03:34 .

[LobselVith8]

-Skorpious- wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why would a pro-mage Hawke work for the templars? Why not allow our choices to have agency and allow our distinct paths to actually change the flow of the story and the ultimate outcome of the protagonist and Kirkwall?

Again, just an example. Consider this example then - Hawke needs to enter Kirkwall. Instead of the local guard handling the refugee situation, Kirkwall officials send the Templars instead. Hawke converses with the templars, cue Meredith's entrance, Meredith agrees to let Hawke into the city in return for select services (use your imagination as to why she would want a mages help, as it really isn't the point here).

Working with the templars in these regards would function similar to the mercenary/smuggler choice in DA2, except that the mage/templar conflict is introduced earlier. After Hawke fulfills his/her service, the story can diverge as the player/plot see's fit.

I can see Hawke working with Ser Thrask, but I don't see Meredith allowing apostates to roam free in Kirkwall.

-Skorpious- wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Hawke has a sister who is a mage or is a mage himself, and was raised by an apostate father, I can see that the protagonist would side with the mages, even if it meant bringing the templars' wrath down on him. He would be doing what he thinks is right.

One of my Hawke's hates her sister and father for their special "gift". Not every Hawke has to adore mages and consider helping them to be the "right" decision. 

I didn't mean every Hawke had to, but I was addressing possible reasons why a pro-mage Hawke would in spite of the repercussions he could face from the templars.

-Skorpious- wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, Cullen mentions that people are starting to help the mages and distrust the templars in Kirkwall.

Hmm, must've missed this conversation.  

If you disagree with Cullen about the treatment of the mages, he mentions this, and as he's talking the view pans over to the statute of the Tevinter slaves.

[AegisSir]

This quest was actually pretty moving for me as well..


That is why I tried and tried to change the course of the events that would happen and much to my woe I couldn't... It doesn't matter if you let free that oddly named Guiseppe Du PWEEEE to try and track the murderer down, you can't take your mother to a shelter or anything to defend her, you can't warn anyone (hell... Idk about any of you but if there was a murderer around I'd tell my family to stay INSIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!).


I was so staggeringly upset that I couldn't alter the course of this quest. It was actually a very memorable quest, but I wish that if we did follow a course of brutal quests that had to eb done perfectly... such as warn the family and the dwarves before running into guiseppe du PWEE and then releasing him and running into him again and being thrown into more side quests....


Overall this IS one of the reasons why I felt like I had NO VOICE OR CHOICE (notice how they rhyme :<?) in DA2. This is one of my top five complaints about the game, it actually did move me and so much so that it stuck out like a sore thumb that I couldn't have any impact upon the game.