104 réponses à ce sujet

[Silveryne]

It wasn't about siding with the templars or anything if I recall correctly.

I seem to recall it being more about people reloading to do the quest over so they could get the "best" ending -- the one where Mommy lives. Even if that ending is the one that has the least drama and impact.

Considering the discussion that goes on in these forums about if it's better to take Bethany in the Deep Roads or leave her behind and get what is the "best" ending for her (out of death of the taint/being made a Grey Warden/Joining the Circle), I think the right direction was taken in regards to "All That Remains".

[snackrat]

Her death to a blood mage helps make the Templar vs Mage... choice... more poignant, since both sides are led by and/or sheltering extremists. I wish they didn't make me choose, while I agreed with the mage sentiments the freedom they ask for is overzealous given how +90% of them are BLOOD MAGES. I should get to either sit back and watch, or just kill Orsino and Meredith right there and go back home for tea.

[Sentox6]

Vicious wrote...

So they made it so she died every time? As part of DARK FANTASY?

If Bioware was REALLY trying to be dark fantasy, they'd let you save her... but as the frankenstein zombie she'd become.

So yeah you can keep her around... if you don't mind the smell.

the lulz would have been epic. Bioware lacks imagination at times.

This is Dragon Age, not Fable

[loudent3]

The Angry One wrote...

It's implied Quentin had been courting her for some time.
Which makes the whole luring her with the injured guy routine somewhat redundant in retrospect.

How is it implied? We know that Quentin's MO is to send lilies out of the blue then kidnap the girl. Which is exactly what happened. Where is it implied that Quentin was courting her?

It was *assumed* by your dwarf manservant in game, but both your character (and the player behind him) knew that the lilies = kidnapped.

[The Angry One]

loudent3 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

It's implied Quentin had been courting her for some time.
Which makes the whole luring her with the injured guy routine somewhat redundant in retrospect.

How is it implied? We know that Quentin's MO is to send lilies out of the blue then kidnap the girl. Which is exactly what happened. Where is it implied that Quentin was courting her?

It was *assumed* by your dwarf manservant in game, but both your character (and the player behind him) knew that the lilies = kidnapped.

Leandra mentions she's seeing someone earlier in Act 2. We never see who, so it's reasonable to assume it was Quentin.

[Vicious]

It's never reasonable to assume anything in DA2.

[Medhia Nox]

When I thought I had caused it with two events 1) Telling her I wanted to be happy in a conversation, thereby causing her to court a new husband. 2) Killing the blood mage that was tracking Quentin - thereby sabotaging my chances of finding him sooner. I felt that the scene was powerful...

When I found out it was scripted... it became contrived.

But that's okay - as a whole, DA: 2 was contrived... so it was just more of the same.

Looking forward to Bioshock Inifinte - at least when someone tells me a story, instead of letting me make one, I can count on it being quality.

[loudent3]

The Angry One wrote...
Leandra mentions she's seeing someone earlier in Act 2. We never see who, so it's reasonable to assume it was Quentin.

No, she mentions that she's thinking about dating again, she never says she's seeing anyone, she never says she met anyone and even gamlen says he didn't hear about any suitors. and we know that she had no intention of meeting any suitor because she was on her way to her brother's house.

and if all of that didn't make it painfully apparant the "bleeding stranger in trouble" story the kid tells you really drives it home

[FrozenDawn]

I actually think they originally intended to put quests into the game which u could solve in multiple ways just like in DA:O...
but then they remembered the release date and cut it all out.

[OmegaWoman]

When I first played the quest I didn't go immediately to save her and then assumed that that was the reason she had died (similar to what happens to your crew in ME2). I admit my immediate instinct was to reload and fix it. Making the death the only outcome definitely gave the story more impact for me.

[Medhia Nox]

OmegaWoman - the fact that you might have caused it didn't have more of an impact? Them telling you a story was had 'more' impact than it possibly being your fault?

[Icy Magebane]

The quest doesn't even make sense as it's written. All the evidence points to a serial killer, but everyone just says there's no connection. You have the option to allow Dupuis to live, and nothing comes of it. I've heard that you can have him use blood magic to teleport you to the killer's lair or something, but I just played through the quest and never saw him again. Leandra receives lilies from an unidentified suitor, and Bodhan's advice is to wait for nightfall? And you have to do it that way, even though at this point you are positive that it's a serial killer and that he has your mother... eh... not buying any of it.

This quest is garbage, pure and simple. It's a nice way to add shock value and cut whatever dialogue and scenes would have been necessary had Leandra survived. Although if the material was already created, I guess it wouldn't make sense to just not include it... that wouldn't really save any money... bah... the bottom line is that it's a pointless quest that is thankfully easy to skip and ignore after the first time you've seen it. Giving the option to change the results would have made it meaningful... since the conclusion is so grisly, I see no point in ever watching it play out again.

[ShakeyMac]

Lithuasil wrote...

highcastle wrote...

I thought what they had said was that they considered having the option to save her, but opted against it. Personally, I think this was the better move story wise. Games are a medium where the player's used to being this invincible hero who always succeeds. But there's been a trend recently where devs play around with that notion. Red Dead Redemption is a recent example that comes to mind.

When the hero fails, when he loses something of value to him, it has an impact. Obviously the story can't be wholly about loss or the player will just feel cheated. But peppering tragedy amidst the success makes those moments of glory so much more powerful. And Leandra's death was one of the most moving experiences in the game for me.

I really don't understand all the grief over this. You can't save everybody. You're not invincible. You're one guy trying to do something extraordinary and sometimes you fail.

This.
Someone save this, and post it, the next fifty thousand times the topic comes up one way or another.
Highcastle, feel yourself high-fived please

Agreed.  As nice as it would be to save my mom, it adds to the story (imo) that she died.  The story of the Champion is what Varric starts the game off telling; this impossibly badass guy he eats darkspawn and craps templar while sitting on his throne of blood mage corpses, drinking out of his pride demon-head goblet.

The *true* story of the Champion is that of a man or woman, just trying to survive (or make a name for him/herself, or protect his/her family, or make a new life in a new city) and just like any other person sometimes s/he fails.  This was one of those failures.  The Champion isn't some godlike hero, capable of taking everything the world throws at him/her and throwing it back even worse.  The Champion is just human, with human weaknesses and failings, and sometimes s/he can't get everything right.

[Medhia Nox]

@Icy Magebane = +10 Friendship Medhia Nox

===

As for "Hawke is just trying to survive." 

I really don't want to play "Sims: Kirkwall".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 mars 2011 - 04:35 .

[ShakeyMac]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Icy Magebane = +10 Friendship Medhia Nox

===

As for "Hawke is just trying to survive." 

I really don't want to play "Sims: Kirkwall".

Then don't.  That's why Varric asks you after the Deep Roads "So what are your plans Hawke?"

Politics, business, family, or just trying to get by.

I think a lot of people go into DA2 with the idea that they will have this world, this lump of clay, to shape to their whims.  The reality of it is that some things are certain; the mage/templar war *will* happen, the chantry *will* get blown up, the Qunari *will* be defeated somehow, you *will* become Champion, and you *will* disappear shortly before the events of the interrogation take place.

What you do have control of is your motivations, whether some people live or die, who remains a friend/rival or who leaves you, and the legacy you choose to leave behind.  DA2 isn't a game about shaping the world on every decision you make.  It's much more realistic than that.  You can change some things, but you can't change everything, but how you do what you do is just as important as actually doing it.

[Alexein]

In real life, the death of a close family member, especially a parent, is extremely painful, heart wrenching and anger inducing.
When it happened to me, I didn't suddenly get up and say:
"Whoa! My personal life story is such an awesome tragic history of a dude who is only human."

Instead I said: "@#$!@#$@!@#!$ YOU GOD!!"

If it happens in a game, Am i not allowed to say: "#$@#$@!#$@! YOU BIOWARE!!!"

They should be flattered that i put them on same level as God

[SuperMedbh]

wulfsturm wrote...

Yeah, I don't think Leandra's character was developed enough to create the sort of emotional response when she dies the writers were hoping it would give.

Actually, for me it was Gamlen's response that pulled the heart.  Realistic reactions, all around. 

[ShakeyMac]

Alexein wrote...

In real life, the death of a close family member, especially a parent, is extremely painful, heart wrenching and anger inducing.
When it happened to me, I didn't suddenly get up and say:
"Whoa! My personal life story is such an awesome tragic history of a dude who is only human."

Instead I said: "@#$!@#$@!@#!$ YOU GOD!!"

If it happens in a game, Am i not allowed to say: "#$@#$@!#$@! YOU BIOWARE!!!"

They should be flattered that i put them on same level as God

I think that's kinda what they were going for.  I think they wanted you to feel angry and helpless, because sometimes that happens.  No matter how cautious a person can be in their daily life, one day they might go outside and a tiny meteorite that escaped destruction in the atmosphere plummets to earth and kills them instantly with a perfect head shot.

It's tragic, it's sad, and there's nothing anyone can do about that (short of a Mr. Burns-style meteorite shade....it's just so crazy it might work).  For me, Leandra dying was more evidence that the Champion is just a human caught up in events beyond his control that he's trying very hard (in my game) to turn for the best.  But some things are beyond his control.  Yes, mom died, but at least I managed to get the Qunari out of Kirkwall with a minimum of bloodshed, comparatively.  And sure, the templar and mages are fighting each other all across the world now, but I saved my sister, and took out two mad extremists from their positions of power, so while war may rage across the world uncontrollably, at least another two bath**** insane whackjobs are dead and buried.  Take comfort in the small things ya know?

[bluewolv1970]

they removed it to keep with the "no choices" theme...

[KAAurious]

bleetman wrote...

Honestly? I'm suprised she didn't snuff it sooner. Being the mother of an up-coming hero apparently has a low survival rate in Thedas, if Origins was any indication.

^ This.

King Aeducan? Dies in his bed.

Cousland family? They get Howe'd.

Parents are doomed in the DA universe.

[IronWolf1987]

I didn't really feel any strong emotion to this quest, because it quite simply baffled me. I spared Du Puis, and he tells me to meet him in Darktown if I learn anything new. Well I tried to do that and he was gone so I'm thinking this is either a bug or as part of the story he is supposed to be shady and disappear and I never see or hear anything of him again. Anyway Leandra goes missing, and we see the white lillies and obviously the killer is involved, but instead of sprining to action every decides to drag their feet for some reason. Why? The worst outcome is that Hawke and Co were overreacting and paranoid and they perhaps ruin Leandra's date or something, while the best is that we avoid Mom getting murdered, furthermore considering the reputation and danger of Kikrwall erring on the side of caution is just plain sensible.

Finally Hawke Co decide to do something and go looking for Leandra. Turns out she was spotted in Lowtown with some weirdo covered in blood and just decided to go with him. Uh what? Maybe it's just me, but I can not think of any situation where a stranger covered in blood would approach me, and no flags would go off. That's not even taking into account the fact that Leandra was in Lowtown a dangerous crime ridden slum. If she wanted to help the guy why not just call a guard or a templar or something? Also why the hell was Leandra walking without an escort she is a middle aged wealthy woman walking through a slum by her self, and no one thinks this is a bad idea? Hell Hawke always travels around with a posse and he/she is an accomplished adventurer.

Sorry, but the whole thing just felt like a scene from a horror movie where everyone aside from the killer is a complete idiot.

[Alexein]

ShakeyMac wrote...

Alexein wrote...

In real life, the death of a close family member, especially a parent, is extremely painful, heart wrenching and anger inducing.
When it happened to me, I didn't suddenly get up and say:
"Whoa! My personal life story is such an awesome tragic history of a dude who is only human."

Instead I said: "@#$!@#$@!@#!$ YOU GOD!!"

If it happens in a game, Am i not allowed to say: "#$@#$@!#$@! YOU BIOWARE!!!"

They should be flattered that i put them on same level as God

I think that's kinda what they were going for.  I think they wanted you to feel angry and helpless, because sometimes that happens.

I agree, so thats why i'm griping about people that grip over other people that gripe about Leandra's death.

Those that gripe about leandra's death have a perfectly valid point: "death sucks." Doesn't matter where it happens, in real life or in the game, it will always suck. I will never stand at a family funeral and say "Well that was cool! Really hit me hard! Who wants to go out for burgers?"

So I'll gripe about Leandra's death. What amuses me though is those that gripe about my griping. Thus why i gripe about them.

My cousin's niece was balling her eyes out at her mother's funeral. Brought me to tears actually. Anyway, she was griping to everyone about the death, I'd be a pretty big ass to call her out and say "God wants you to feel angry and helpless, because sometimes that happens." as if she's supposed to stop griping. I let her gripe, because that was the only way she could express her feelings.

So let the gripers gripe, not everyone can be stoic, brave and mature about it.

[Oneiropolos]

...seriously though. Really. We fight a dragon. A DRAGON. And demons. Did I mention the demons? And either an ARMY of templars or a bunch of blood mages at the end.
...
...
But we can't track down one serial killer who has an obvious MO and who's blood is still fresh even if you go the -slow- way to reach Leandra's lair... when we have the captain of the guard as a friend, and Varric's sources in the underbelly of Kirkwall. We're deciding our hero's inability to stop ONE MORTAL KILLER at GREATER COSTS than anything else to them is totally realistic and a genius plot move when we then go on to kill Varterral and Dragons and potentially an Arishok?

Hawke isn't invincible. I think that's made rather clear throughout the entire game. Being unable to save her from a serial killer was just pathetic though. Does it happen in RL? Yeah. And maybe that's why it bothers me so much. I could wake up tomorrow and find out my mother has been killed by some insane murderer. PROBABLY not going to wake up and find out she was killed by a dragon. If we do find that out, I'll be grieving, but I'm sure the rest of you won't really care because, OMG, Dragons exist! Oh, a woman died to it? That's a shame, but OMG, DRAGONS!

So. You lose your sibling based purely on which class you chose. You lose your mother no matter what. And your other sibling is basically removed out of your life.

...I feel REALLY badly for anyone who needs that to tell them they're not invincible. Because I don't walk away thinking of how human that makes my character. I walk away thinking of how CRAPPY a life my character has. This is ignoring the fact that you can be best friends with Anders and he'll still betray you (NO arguments about whether what he did was right or wrong. Anders used you, for his own agenda, and he did it knowing you might try to stop him. That's a betrayal. Even if you'd feel more betrayed because you agreed and wanted to help him.) The entire game is based on how entirely things DON'T change in terms of Hawke being at the whims of others. You're an errand girl/boy the entire time. Leandra's death was not necessary to make that clear.

It was a well done quest. And yes, I cried. I recently caught up with the series Merlin which I was WAY behind on before and I had to IM a friend during it and go, "Wait, you're allowed to watch series and not cry almost every episode?" because I had during Torchwood and even Doctor Who was pretty guilty of making me do it a lot. I always sit there going, "It's not "But that isn't real!", it's that someone, somewhere, is feeling that sort of desperate pain, whether it's about aliens or not!" And so I can't draw a nice line between 'real' and 'not real' and turn off crying on not real. So I cried. It made an emotional impact. That doesn't mean it was necessary. It's done, it's in, there's nothing that can be done about it now. Ironically, the players who are most upset by it are just as helpless to do anything about it.

But what we CAN do is speak up and ask that Bioware not do it again. There's things that have to be done in order to accomplish plots and I think most of get that. But if you have to put the players through something like that to evoke emotional ties or the concept that Hawke isn't invincible? Then you've REALLY screwed up in the rest of the game. It was mid second act. For me, that's at least 10 hours in? On the very low end, assuming people aren't just main quest playing? If you're just NOW making me wonder about the humanity of the character I've been playing for ten hours, what the -heck- were you doing in that time? I can watch almost a whole season of a show in ten hours at 13 episodes, roughly 40 minutes each with no commercials. I feel Bioware made the points people are arguing Leandra's death did in other quests and in other ways. Letting us be able to AVOID a depressing point in the game isn't breaking the story. You'd still find out a blood mage tried to butcher your mother. I don't imagine that'd leave you feeling fuzzy towards blood magic afterwards. Narrowly managing to save her doesn't diminish how close you were to losing her. If people reloaded the game to save her, then that means they must have really wanted to keep her alive. And if people really want the choice where their character isn't put through that grief...what's wrong with wanting that choice? We certainly don't get the choice in real life when a loved one passes away. So we get a little control over life or death in a video game in one case of it. People who wanted to see the scene could still choose differently. But trying to argue how it's so integral just doesn't hold water. :/

[addu2urmanapool]

Nothing you do in the game matters for anything.

[Medhia Nox]

@Oneiropolos - you can fight all those things, but what you can't fight, is bad storytelling.

Evidently having your mother killed as an impact.

I felt like saying: "I could have stayed in Ferelden and joined the Warden if you were just going to die pointlessly anyway."