104 réponses à ce sujet

[supakillaii]

wulfsturm wrote...

Yeah, I don't think Leandra's character was developed enough to create the sort of emotional response when she dies the writers were hoping it would give.

This, but I still support the ending.

[InvaderErl]

I didn't mind the death but the whole Frankenstein thing just sort of struck me as silly and out of place which I know is nonsensical in a game with dragons and demons but there ya go.

Whoever said Gamlen's reaction was emotional I agree, I felt more as a response to that then ZombieMom shuffling at you.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 28 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[vigna]

OK, so I'm a male Hawke warrior in my first play through without cheating or looking at guides. My brother dies early on. I take my sister to the Deep Roads without Anders and she dies. Then my Mom dies. Then in act 3 Merrill is kidnapped and I about blew my stack.... I already thought it had gotten to the point of "cheap heat" at Leandra's death. ^^This scenario of a first play is ridiculous and just trying too hard to get easy emotion.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

A lot of people that you're supposed to protect in this game die. I feel like I'm constantly seeing people die right before my character gets there to fight the big bad. It's ridiculous because, in some of these encounters, I was actually supposed to protect the person, but apparently my character is too irresponsible to actually do what she's supposed to. It's gotten to the point where I'm just not attached to many of the characters because I know that there's a good chance that the only reason the character is there is to die shortly afterward.

[Andronic0s]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Something tells me Leandra's death would be better appreciated and elicit a greater emotional response if, you know, it actually was your fault she died (by screwing up in whatever way would lead to that) and not the result of a railroading cyber-GM. 

ME2's suicide mission was very good in this respect - any squadmate deaths suffered were a result of your bad decisions. Easy though it may have been to get through it with no deaths, you still get a sense of loss when not everybody comes back and a sense of pride when everbody comes through alive. 

Now, that said, I still thought the quest itself was well done, and FemHawke had some just absolutely fantastic VO work there, but it's still annoying. 

And the RDR comparison is pretty apples to oranges, frankly. For one, RDR is not an RPG partially advertised as having events affected by player choice. Secondly, that's at the very end of the game's story arc, and Marston's family actually makes it out alive while h's the one making the sacrifice, so it doesn't feel like the devs are stuffing them in the fridge for the sake of pathos and saving work. 

Plus it's just a damned good sequence to boot. 

I agree, one really feels cheated because I was expecting my actions to carry consecuences but they dont, no matter what I do the end result is always the same, Shepherding of Wolves and the Arishok are other examples of having 20 diferent choices that all lead to the same result, what is the point? It seems all I can chose is which dialogue will come out of Hawke's mouth, might as well just remove this and let them create their own story with cutscenes

As for the loading argument, a good way to handle that which other RPGs have done is to have the choices being made really early in the game so that realoding means replaying 10 hours of content, if the user wants to do this let them, this is an RPG after all 

Modifié par Andronic0s, 30 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[Rifneno]

I really, really hate that quest.  It's one thing that the hero's family has to be gotten rid of.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it.  The way it happened though...  that was just plain perverse.  I hesitate to replay the game because that quest is so disturbing I don't want to ever see it again.  I've been gaming since the NES days and I've never not wanted to replay a game because one scene was too sick.  I don't buy into the "anything that evokes emotion means the writers did good" theory.  If a TV show makes you so angry you always change the channel, they're not going a good job.  Simple as that.

It also warps people's perception on the primary issue of the game, mages vs. templars.  People say it's to show you the depravity that mages are capable of.  I call foul.  Where's the quest where we find a templar over Bethany's bloody, beaten body and he brags about how she begged him to stop as he raped her, and then we find evidence connecting him to Templar higher ups (and presumably not Meredith, since she's already got enough blood on her hands that it will have little weight)?  Why is the horror show one sided?  The whole "it's to balance the templars" thing makes no sense.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised in the end though.  No choice we have makes any impact.  Everything always plays out the same.  This isn't an RPG, it's an anime with an innovative menu interface.

[Thrennion]

highcastle wrote...

I really don't understand all the grief over this. You can't save everybody. You're not invincible. You're one guy trying to do something extraordinary and sometimes you fail.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[silver-crescent]

InvaderErl wrote...

I didn't mind the death but the whole Frankenstein thing just sort of struck me as silly and out of place which I know is nonsensical in a game with dragons and demons but there ya go.
 

I totally agree. And it also felt incredibly gratuitous I thought.

[Sammyjb]

I liked her dying. It gave Hawke a great human moment. That being said, more support would have been given to the Templars if we found out Orsino helped out with that BEFORE we had made our choice, and not in such an offhand way.

[EthanDirtch]

While I'm not AGAINST close people dying inevitably, I do think it could, should, have been handled better. The whole quest-line just seemed so...haphazard and forced together. And yeah, there was a lot of things near the end of it that just screamed 'more choice here', but as stated before the actual choice was cut. It just felt really cobbled together. And, as said before, Leandra wasn't fleshed out enough (nor did she even look unique enough) to really pull at your heart strings.

[sevalaricgirl]

It would have had shock value if I cared one hoot about the mother. She was completely annoying, blaming Hawke for everything. In fact, the only characters that are care worthy are those you travel with but even those relationships were shallow. This game needed another 6 months to a year of development time. It's good, but it's not DAO.

[nokori3byo]

If I wanted to praise the whole Leandra bit, I usppose I'd say that it's genuinely shocking when experienced for the first time.
The second time around, it just felt like what it really is: a character close to the hero getting stuffed in the fridge for dramatic effect.

[MKDAWUSS]

silver-crescent wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I didn't mind the death but the whole Frankenstein thing just sort of struck me as silly and out of place which I know is nonsensical in a game with dragons and demons but there ya go.
 

I totally agree. And it also felt incredibly gratuitous I thought.

Me also. It ruined what was supposed to be a powerful storyline and an emotional moment. Instead of "OMG" it was "C'mon Man"

[Kenshen]

highcastle wrote...

I thought what they had said was that they considered having the option to save her, but opted against it. Personally, I think this was the better move story wise. Games are a medium where the player's used to being this invincible hero who always succeeds. But there's been a trend recently where devs play around with that notion. Red Dead Redemption is a recent example that comes to mind.

When the hero fails, when he loses something of value to him, it has an impact. Obviously the story can't be wholly about loss or the player will just feel cheated. But peppering tragedy amidst the success makes those moments of glory so much more powerful. And Leandra's death was one of the most moving experiences in the game for me.

I really don't understand all the grief over this. You can't save everybody. You're not invincible. You're one guy trying to do something extraordinary and sometimes you fail.

I like what you are saying but in this case having a "forbidden" way of saving her really could have added an interesting way to build your character.  And story wise it could change the way everyone views you.  No way would the templars like you and Orsino would want to avoid you as well.  I wouldn't mind having a playthrough where I end up the bad guy after all.

[Ryzaki]

addu2urmanapool wrote...

Nothing you do in the game matters for anything.

And this is the underlining issue. 

It feels like nothing you do makes a difference. This quest just made it worse. 

[EthanDirtch]

nokori3byo wrote...

The second time around, it just felt like what it really is: a character close to the hero getting stuffed in the fridge for dramatic effect.

HA! As a guy who reads comics and likes Kyle Rayner, that's the perfect analogy and meme to use, lol

[AlexXIV]

The worst thing about this quest is that it does not make sense either. You know the killer from 3 years before. You even saw him, know what he looks like. You know he uses Lilies (for whatever reason). Do you think Hawke tries to find him in the 3 years? Or gives the city guard a picture or at least discription? Hawke also knows he is a mage. And we know he is a circle mage, or was. Did Hawke or anyone look in the Circle for him? And why could he keep sending Lillies? If you know he is doing that one could think the citizens get some sort of warning or something. Well blah. It's not only that you can't prevent it. It's a silly quest that makes little to no sense. Other than being a shocker for the shocker fan crowd.

[Halo Quea]

Did anyone else feel sick all over again when Hawke failed to keep the young Elf girl safe from her returning blood mage husband?

I mean Hawke tells this poor girl that he's going to keep her safe and return (again at nightfall) and make sure nothing happens. Well Hawke arrives late(as usual) and her husband shows up and stabs her in the chest and she falls dead while her blood is used for magic in the attack.

[Cloud43]

Sounds like Leandra couldn't resist a man in robes.

[Chuvvy]

Yes. I'm also 90% sure you were originally meant to be able to save both Bethany and Carver. There's even dialog with Leandra about how "The three of you are Ferelden to your toes." She says it to either Carve/Bethany and Hawke after completing the companion quest for them during Act 1.

[The Angry One]

Slidell505 wrote...

Yes. I'm also 90% sure you were originally meant to be able to save both Bethany and Carver. There's even dialog with Leandra about how "The three of you are Ferelden to your toes." She says it to either Carve/Bethany and Hawke after completing the companion quest for them during Act 1.

She was including the dog.

[sphinxess]

I'm glad they removed it - wish they had done the same with the happy option in DA:O with saving Conner <or let him mass kill more people when you went to the mage tower for help> guess they learned something.

[Andronic0s]

sphinxess wrote...

I'm glad they removed it - wish they had done the same with the happy option in DA:O with saving Conner <or let him mass kill more people when you went to the mage tower for help> guess they learned something.

Exept that in that quest there are 3 diferent outcomes you can cause, in this one there is only one so kind of kills the RPG part, which makes it more a step backwards rather than forward

[Sanguinerin]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Yes if I understood it right they had a version of the quest where Leandra could be saved, but everyone picked to save her in the tests. So actually they should have the material somewhere which should make it even easier to implement it again.

The problem wasn't that "everyone picked to save her". It was that everyone thought they had to save her, and would reload/re-do the quest until the got the outcome that was perceived as the most optimum-- even if the result when Leandra dies is more dramatic and has more of an impact on the larger story.

The quest isn't about saving her, after all, it's about putting a more personal face on the darker side of magic and the repercussions it can have on innocents.

Quote from the "Requesting Leandra Hawke DLC" thread.

My problem here is this: if someone is going to reload to save Leandra because they feel "it's the right decision", then they'll do that most likely at any point in the game where they have a choice. The only way to deal with this issue is to cut choices in general, otherwise, leave the content and let people make their own decisions.

Ryzaki wrote...

addu2urmanapool wrote...

Nothing you do in the game matters for anything.

And this is the underlining issue. 

It feels like nothing you do makes a difference. This quest just made it worse. 

My sentiments exactly.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 31 mars 2011 - 02:52 .

[Beerfish]

This is my big beef with the family dynamic, you have a pretty decent chance of losing them all, which kind of destroys things as far as I'm concerned. Here is your family, they will act like a family, now we are going to kill them all. In my retrospect of the last play though I came to the conclusion that coming to kirkwall was a terrilbe terrible mistake.