18 réponses à ce sujet

[mcsupersport]

What spell is the Quanari mage casting that is a ball with electicity coming out of it that kills everyone in a party???

I want to know becuase I want my mage to be able to cast it, and it annoys me to no end that I have never seen my guys cast it, so obviously either it is a specialized bs spell for NPCs or I am not building my mages right.

[Jaekahn]

Hawke cannot cast that spell. Sorry to burst your bubble bud

[mcsupersport]

So what you are saying is, the only way Bioware could make the current Mage terrifyingly powerful like the lore states is to give the NPC mages a bs spell that Hawke and company can't cast....gotcha. I hate it when games do this stupid cheese.

[Talladarr]

To be honest it makes sense that Hawke and company can't cast it. the Qunari likely have unique spells. simple as that. But I agree, I want that spell so bad >.<

Modifié par Talladarr, 28 mars 2011 - 05:40 .

[Gage123]

Or make a mod that switches Tempest and casts that instead.
The spell is basically channeled that does damage every 0.5 sec and hits 8 times. Change some numbers and it is Tempest that deals the same damage, cooldown but cooler looking

[MomoJamo]

Talladarr wrote...

To be honest it makes sense that Hawke and company can't cast it. the Qunari likely have unique spells. simple as that. But I agree, I want that spell so bad >.<

Its not the only NPC that can cast that spell.. I'm pretty sure arcane horrors (i think thats the name) can also cast it...

Also wouldnt mind the spell the Qunari/Arcane Horrors cast when you are at close range hurts like a mofo..

[Apathy1989]

I'm pretty sure some tivinter mages cast it aswell. Its rather annoying that no mages use real spells, but then again DAO was annoying as hell with mages using cone of cold and misdirection hex constantly.

[wowpwnslol]

There are no really dangerous player spells in DA2, so devs had to create NPC only spells to make them tougher. No such problem in Origins... cone of cold, crushing prison, misdirection hex, curse of mortality etc etc.

[Waltzingbear]

The offensive spells design in DA2 is really at fault, lacking a real strategic aspect like there was in Origins where you had to dispel certain spells or free allies from grip and overwhelm. Now it's all about running away and scanning the area every two seconds in case a mage just spawned out of nowhere.

With that said, it's nice to have something to complain about. If you want to be the all powerful mage play on casual. I can't see how it's cheesy to give them the ability to kill you in five seconds when you have the ability to kill them in three.
You're doing more damage than they do. Try to use a spell with FF on one of your allies and see. They just have much more health than you. That's the game mechanism. Do you want them to give you a spell that has the same effect on enemies' health as they have on yours? and what would you do then to challenge? throw more waves of critters? If you liked Origins' combat look at it this way- you were a party of just four normal "white" type characters faced with overwhelming odds. There's even a phase in the Sacred Ashes quest where you face a duplication of your party in combat. It's not about what spells do you have but how you use them.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 28 mars 2011 - 12:18 .

[Zan Mura]

So to elaborate since it seems like no-one's said this directly yet:

Enemy mages use different spells from players. Their Blood spells, these Saarebas spells, even their basic Chain Lightning and Barrier, are NOT the same spells you have. They cause MUCH more damage, last MUCH longer (Barrier), and have almost nonexisting cooldowns. This is one of my pet peeves with the game. Your mages are far weaker than the lore and tradition from DAO would demand. Enemy mages on the other hand are more overpowered than they've ever been. Which basically creates the idea that all mages under your command are sad, pathetic novices that only ever survive against the enemy due to superior tactics, timing, teamwork, and a lot of "load game" abusing every time an enemy mage gets a single spell off.

[mcsupersport]

I am trying a hard play though for the first time, was in act 1 doing the gun powder quest at around level 6-7. The Qunair mage killed my entire party 3 times(Aveline, Varric, Mage Hawk, Anders) killed 2-3 party members 4 times, and the last was a party wipe with the entire group attacking the mage to disrupt or kill him. I couldn't do enough damage to him from the time he spawned till he got off the spell while being hit to kill him. It just annoys me to no end that in a tempest, after plain horror, with 4 guys attacking him, he can still cast a spell that wipes a party, and it is a spell I can't get period. If you as a game designer have to make special spells for NPC/monsters to cast to make them powerful enough to threaten a group because "normal" spells aren't good enough, then something is wrong with the spells you have designed in the first place.

[rumination888]

You guys realize that if the player had access to that spell, they wouldn't even be able to kill normal rank mobs with it, right?

The reason why enemy mages don't have access to the same spells you do is because they'd kill you in one hit due to the difference in health between enemies and players. An enemy mage using Winter's Grasp would basically one shot your rogues.

[Running_Blind]

Enemy mages go down FAST, the only time they get a spell off is when you're not paying enough atention.

[kayangelus]

rumination888 wrote...

You guys realize that if the player had access to that spell, they wouldn't even be able to kill normal rank mobs with it, right?

The reason why enemy mages don't have access to the same spells you do is because they'd kill you in one hit due to the difference in health between enemies and players. An enemy mage using Winter's Grasp would basically one shot your rogues.

This.

Essentially, the problem isn't that enemy mages have ridiculous spells. The problem is that the basic enemy cannon fodder (with the smallest health bars) have as much health as your freaking tank. NPC mage spells kill you in 4~5 seconds? That means you could kill that trash in 4~5 seconds. Most waves have a multitude of enemies with a few times that many spells. With those spells it would literally take you 20~30 seconds to kill enemies that are so weak they have to throw waves of them at you.

[Zan Mura]

That's semantics. The end result is the same, mobs and the player are treated differently. They do not work under the same ruleset at all. It's a design choice, of course, but one that I do not like. It is far more simple, clear, FAIR, and just logical to have all the objects to share the same rules. Much as they mostly did in DAO for instance. This kind of thing they have in DA2 just makes it feel needlessly confusing, and borderline cheating.

As said, enemy mages are one-time wonders that don't really even add much to the game. Like your average Saarebas. If they get that Chain Lightning off, it's an automatic wipe and forced reload. If they don't, then they really don't get anything done at all and just become a momentary distraction. Similarly, while there's always a risk to using the word "immersion", in my case it just doesn't work when the enemy cheats with their hp or spells or abilities, or when for example your mages fireball does pitiful nothing amounts of damage to the enemy, but instagibs your whole party should it hit it. Or when you need to dedicate an insane amount of talents and items to achieve high resistance to an element, yet every random thug and their cousin has some magical gear on with 100% immunity to fire, frost and whatnot. Or the Qunari total immunity to Primal / Lightning. Things that make no sense at all, aren't in the least realistic even in the world of Thedas, simply because BW decided to go with 100% gameplay this time with no regard for how things might actually make any kind of sense in the WORLD. It's an RPG after all, I believe it can be said that it *does* matter.

The message is clear: your characters are weak, sad and pathetic. Nowhere near deserving of titles like "champion" etc. The only way they could possibly win, is through superior teamplay tactics, loads of cowardly kiting and mostly because the enemy is just so dumb they don't know how to use what they have.

I can say right now I would far have preferred them to use the basic abilities and CCC rules on BOTH sides. But of course, this is just my opinion. As said, DA2 is a good game, but this whole scaling and combat mechanic thing seriously fails in some aspects.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 28 mars 2011 - 09:50 .

[mcsupersport]

rumination888 wrote...

You guys realize that if the player had access to that spell, they wouldn't even be able to kill normal rank mobs with it, right?

The reason why enemy mages don't have access to the same spells you do is because they'd kill you in one hit due to the difference in health between enemies and players. An enemy mage using Winter's Grasp would basically one shot your rogues.

Then the design is doing it wrong, in how they set up the monsters/npc combatants.  In DA:O if I saw a fighter I knew what they could do, mage and rogue was the same, the skills were all available to anyone.  Some special skills/spells on bosses is fine, don't have an issue, but when you start giving different spells/abilities to either make them more powerful or less powerful to "balance" the game, then the whole game design has failed somewhere.  It destroys "immersion" and gameplay for me, and many others when this is done to the extent DA2 has done so.

[Zan Mura]

mcsupersport wrote...

Then the design is doing it wrong, in how they set up the monsters/npc combatants.  In DA:O if I saw a fighter I knew what they could do, mage and rogue was the same, the skills were all available to anyone.  Some special skills/spells on bosses is fine, don't have an issue, but when you start giving different spells/abilities to either make them more powerful or less powerful to "balance" the game, then the whole game design has failed somewhere.  It destroys "immersion" and gameplay for me, and many others when this is done to the extent DA2 has done so.

Spoken with fewer and truer words than I ever could. THIS here is exactly what I mean, couldn't agree more.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 28 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[Waltzingbear]

There is some truth to that point. Origins was more balanced in that way that monsters’ health was very similar to yours. If I used Cone of Cold it would hit my companions for about the same percentage of health as the mobs’.

But if one would wish to balance it the same in DA2 one would need to either bring mobs’ health down and actually bring your damage down along with it or bring your health up and make mobs more damaging or they would just be totally impotent. If you’d take away enemy mages’ high-damage-compared-to-your-hp spells they would just not be terrifying as they’re supposed to be which would make the total game easier.

I agree that giving them an AOE spell that takes 20% of your health per second is not the way to go to provide a solid challenge to a tactical game, but this is not something that could be fixed as the game stands right now with simple number tweaking.

This change is all because they made the combat faster. It takes less time to bring an enemy down and it takes less time to bring you down. What's more, believe it or not, Mages were Overpowered in Origins and the balancing with the other two classes might leave you feeling less powerful.

As to this “my Hawke is supposed to be supernaturally strong” claim I keep seeing. I don’t think this is the case in Dragon Age, and I don’t think this is what the developers have in mind. I don’t even think this is the case with most Tactical RPGs.
If you take most RPGs and look at the way your party is built you will see that there isn’t any big fundamental difference between the main hero and the other companions. If this wasn’t the case then the only way to defeat Loghain would have been for the main hero to fight him. However I used Morrigan for that task because she was more powerful than my hero in a 1v1 situation.
TRPGs are not about playing a super almighty hero. They’re about playing a party of competent but normal characters using the right abilities and the right decisions to give an edge over supernatural enemies.

[Apathy1989]

Speaking of overpowered skills I wish my teammates had, I am getting sick of enemy rogues using their backstabs and instantly killing any teammate, then doing a backflip, disappearing and doing it again 10 seconds later.

Especially on "Inside Job" quest where you face 5 rogues at once. Alot of load spamming and anger.

I much prefered it in DAO where skills were reasonable, hitpoints weren't in the millions and friendly fire worked both ways. With the current setup where NPCs do low damage, but have massive health, while my teammates are the opposite, it means that friendly fire is meaningless to them and devestating to teammates. 300 damage will mildy annoy a random thug, but instantly kill my tank. Its stupid.