110 réponses à ce sujet

[PirateT138]

Yeah, he had a big steaming pile of crap fall on him and he was just trying to do his best.

Not a bad guy.

[Medhia Nox]

So - the Viscount just wants to keep the peace, and he's a good - noble sort in a bad situation.

And - the High Cleric just wants to keep the peace, and she's an accomplice to Meredith's crazy.

====

To me, they were both grossly ineffectual. But if the High Cleric is to blame, then so is the Viscount. (and no, that doesn't mean I think either of them "deserve" what they got)

The Viscount should have forced the Qunari out. Why - in a city filling up with Fereldens, does he allow the Qunari - "extreme" foreigners of an entirely different social structure - squat in a huge part of the docks?

Why aren't you allowed to tell the Viscount that members of the Chantry are trying to incite the Qunari. Learning that, the Viscount should then pressure the High Cleric to action - or, covertly take action himself.

He's got an entire city full of brigands... he could have had an entire underground military if the man had any ability to lead. He could have destroyed subversive elements among the Chantry - and poisoned the Qunari food stocks slowly.

This whole: "We're waiting for another ship." What leader sits by idly accepting this? It's so poorly written that these conversations can't even be relevant.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 mars 2011 - 03:38 .

[Blze001]

At they very least, they should've given Hawke the option to backhand Isabela for her part in the whole Qunari fiasco.

[Thehealeroftruu]

I liked the Viscount too.. He WAS a bit soft for a leader. But that was what made me like him, he cared about the city and the people only to be killed by the monster he was trying to make peace with.

[Lithuasil]

The difference in responsibility between the Viscount and the grand cleric is - a single five minutes of manning up from Elthina, and the whole conflict could be avoided. She had the power, and the responsibility to prevent what happened. Shying away from preventing something, makes you partly responsible.

The Viscount does not have this power. He can't just search for the book and hand it back, given the Arishok in all his wisdom was oh so cooperative to tell nobody and instead lie his ass off. The only thing the Viscount (who takes action against the chantry, he pays mercenaries (hawke)) could have done differently, is openly trying to force the Qunari out. While I totally agree that a preemptive strike to root out the beasts before they can break anything would have been the wisest course of action - he did not have the power to issue such a strike, and it would have meant a breach of treaties that the human kingdoms (unlike the qunari) actually planned to keep.

[Camenae]

Lithuasil wrote...

The difference in responsibility between the Viscount and the grand cleric is - a single five minutes of manning up from Elthina, and the whole conflict could be avoided. She had the power, and the responsibility to prevent what happened. Shying away from preventing something, makes you partly responsible.

This.  I felt sorry for Elthina still, but all her claims of "I have to remain neutral" and "I don't have power over Meredith" are bulls***. 

She is Meredith's BOSS, the templars being a branch of the Chantry.  Oh my god in what job is the boss NOT responsible for the actions of her employees, of which she was obviously well aware?  If the heads of the navy and army hated each other and were threatening to kill everybody in the other branch, would the army chief of staff just say "OH YES LET ME REMAIN NEUTRAL."

[Medhia Nox]

How many could have possibly been on one ship? Not to mention those that were killed when the ship sunk... not to mention that they wouldn't have had any supplies from their sunken ship... not to mention all those that turn Tal'Vashoth.

The whole story is so contrived... we're told one ship. That would have been easily manageable by an entire city. Give them spoiled or poisoned food, tell them they cannot provide the Qunari with ANY food because they don't have enough as it is. Not providing them with resources I bet isn't against the "Treaty".

Don't give them room within the city - force them to camp in the Free Marches. Sounds pretty simple.

And, if the Viscount has no power - it's his fault he let it get this way. It's HIS fault he let Meredith gain the power she has... it's HIS fault that the Qunari are within city limits...

Had the man had any ability to lead - he would have put the Templars in their place from the get go... then, refused the Qunari when they crashed. Chapter's 2 and 3 were just solved more efficiently.

====

And I "am" accusing Elthina of innaction... she's guilty, but as I said: I don't think either of them get what they "deserve". I think they're victims of terrible storytelling.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[Lithuasil]

So essentially, you're saying the Viscount (who you insist should go up against the woman that installed him in the first place) made one mistake - he thought he could avoid bloodshed, and reason with Qunari.

[Medhia Nox]

No, he made one mistake - he undermined the safety of his entire city by allowing the military branch of a foreign power to make a fortress in the trade center (the Docks) of his city.

Olive branches are for people with nukes... this man is fighting a losing battle in his own city (because of his extreme weakness)... he can't afford to be allowing foreign armies nest in the bowels of his city. It's a terrible decision.

[Satyricon331]

The Angry One wrote...
The Viscount was a better man than the Arishok could ever hope to be.

The Arishok prattles on about honour like the word can be bought for a couple of silver, he doesn't have a clue what it means.

The Viscount meanwhile does his best to keep the situation stable while constantly being slapped in the fact by all sides, hell he wasn't even that concerned with whether Seamus believed in the Qun or not, other than his constant wishy washy defections were just worsening the situation.

+1

aryon69 wrote...

Vicious wrote...
but if the game had let me, I would have had Hawke use magic to burn the book right in front of his face.

I thought the exact same thing the first time I saw that part.  After all that happened in that room the last thing I would have allowed is for the Qunari to get that book. 

I wanted to give the book to the Tevinters.

[Medhia Nox]

The Seneschal had so much more acumen as a leader... Seamus was a traitor. He had accepted foreign philosophies - he could no more be trusted than a Libertarian mage. He certainly could never have ascended to Viscount. I would have openly condemned my sons decisions at court - amongst the common people and the nobles. I would have allowed him to go with the Qunari out of love, but as a leader, I could not allow doubt amongst those at court who look to me for leadership.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

No, he made one mistake - he undermined the safety of his entire city by allowing the military branch of a foreign power to make a fortress in the trade center (the Docks) of his city.

Olive branches are for people with nukes... this man is fighting a losing battle in his own city (because of his extreme weakness)... he can't afford to be allowing foreign armies nest in the bowels of his city. It's a terrible decision.

A mistake mind you, that would have been the doing of a great man of peace, if said foreign power had consisted of reasonable beings, as opposed to savage lunatics.
Think about it - a force of Orlesians or Tevinters stranded. Denying them entry to the city, or poisoning them, would have led to great diplomatic difficulties, and inevitably to bloodshed. Offering them shelter, until they depart. The problem here, is that the oh so honest qunari lie about their intend, and turn on the city without any conceivable or foreseeable reason to warrant bloodshed.

[alaska the 1st]

Medhia Nox wrote...

How many could have possibly been on one ship? Not to mention those that were killed when the ship sunk... not to mention that they wouldn't have had any supplies from their sunken ship... not to mention all those that turn Tal'Vashoth.

The whole story is so contrived... we're told one ship. That would have been easily manageable by an entire city. Give them spoiled or poisoned food, tell them they cannot provide the Qunari with ANY food because they don't have enough as it is. Not providing them with resources I bet isn't against the "Treaty".

Don't give them room within the city - force them to camp in the Free Marches. Sounds pretty simple.

And, if the Viscount has no power - it's his fault he let it get this way. It's HIS fault he let Meredith gain the power she has... it's HIS fault that the Qunari are within city limits...

Had the man had any ability to lead - he would have put the Templars in their place from the get go... then, refused the Qunari when they crashed. Chapter's 2 and 3 were just solved more efficiently.

====

And I "am" accusing Elthina of innaction... she's guilty, but as I said: I don't think either of them get what they "deserve". I think they're victims of terrible storytelling.

Well they said the ship was a Dreadnought so that could mean about 800 - 1000 qunari...

[Cypher0020]

I liked him... the man was trying to please everyone but just couldn't... his son I wanted to smack a few times... and I really pummeled the Arishok after he killed him...

he was the one person who wasn't power hungry/blood mage/bat s*** insane.....

[Medhia Nox]

The Tevinter Imperium is built on slave trade... and you despise the Orlesians (or at least the religion that is based there). The Tevinter Imperium is the most repugnant place in Dragon Age - I would never allow them in any city I ruled, ever. If they had goods I desired to trade - I would set up a market specifically for trade with them outside my city.

Lithuasil - if you think whatever nation you live in doesn't have an entire government full of liars, I really don't even know what to say. To single out the Qunari as "liars" as if no other nation (Ferelden, Free Marches, Orleasian, etc.) does... I can only say that reveals a huge bias.

Concerning 1000 qunari. That's even MORE reason to refuse them. Their ship crashed... and Kirkwall has "walls". Empires throughout real history turned away armies for MUCH less.

First, I would have offered them ships to leave... immediately. Then, when they refused that - I would have thought something was wrong, and letting them in wouldn't have been my first decision.

Hindsight is 20/20 - so I can create any "better" scenario I want, but I feel that the Viscount was a terrible leader BEFORE the Qunari arrived. Allowing Meredith to gain so much power makes that evident to me.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 mars 2011 - 04:27 .

[Camenae]

I agree. Maybe a ship with a small qunari delegate, it would've been understandable to let them in. Their ship crashed, they're refugees, whatever. If it were really a "dreadnought" ship with 800-1000 seasoned soldiers, with their MILITARY LEADER in tow. F*** no. You can all park outside, on the Wounded Coast with the Tal'Vashoth, at best. And I'd be "asking" every day with demonstration missile firings and fly-bys as to when you'd leave.

You open the door and let a wolf in, don't be surprised when it eats you.

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...


Lithuasil - if you think whatever nation you live in doesn't have an entire government full of liars, I really don't even know what to say. To single out the Qunari as "liars" as if no other nation (Ferelden, Free Marches, Orleasian, etc.) does... I can only say that reveals a huge bias.

If a large part of the justification for said cultures self righteousness would come from being (entirely selfproclaimed) honorable and honest, then calling them out when they reveal themselves to be underhanding, backstabbing liars, has nothing to do with bias. I never said that no other nation lies - what I say, is that Orlesian culture does not claim to be build on Honor.

[Alexein]

I could probably blame the viscount in many ways for the situation, but i still feel very sorry for him.

He may have been bad, ineffectual, etc.etc.etc. as a leader, but he didn't cause the crud in kirkwall. He could have done better, but in the portions of the game that i saw him, he didn't try to make things worse, he wasn't tyrannical, he wasn't selfish. He might have been stupid not dealing with the qunari before things got outta hand, but he wasn't picking a fight.

And he got killed because someone ELSE judged him unworthy of leadership or honor.

So my sympathy goes out to him. Now my hawke might have deposed him herself eventually, but the viscount would have kept his life and his family, for i do not believe he did anything criminal in his reign. Stupid maybe, but not criminal.

RIP Former Viscount Marlowe Dumar

Modifié par Alexein, 28 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[kedcoleman]

I'd say he was more naive than a poor leader. He took the qunari at face value, despite the notion of letting several hundred armed militants camp out in the docks being a bad idea.

[Camenae]

Yeah, the Viscount for sure wasn't the worst person in DA2. His son was a selfish little punk (especially with that terrible HAIR), but I still felt bad for the Viscount when the son died.

Something I don't understand is why didn't Hawke take over the viscount seat right after the end of Act II. Surely s/he had everybody's support, noble and common, after delivering them from the Qunari. And I thought that was why Bioware had to give Hawke a Kirkwallian-noble-family background. Otherwise the "rise" to power would have been a lot more impressive if Hawke wasn't already sort of a noble to begin with.

[RubiconI7]

A game about using ideals to justify extreme action.

The two people trying to strike a compromise or middle ground dieing horribly.

[Pileyourbodies]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@AngelicMachinery: That's good... neither did the Arishok, for three years. And doing those things weren't within your power to do either.

Are you morally outraged at all the rogues guilds in Kirkwall? How about the nobles who ignore the gross poverty? How about the Tevinter mages who seem to trample all over Kirkwall trading slaves? How about the terrorist in your group? How about the STD laden thief who KNEW what would make the Qunari leave? You raging about all of them too?

You know what the American government does to people who steal important things from them? Are you outraged?

Poor people are intrinsic to the system, someone needs to be janitors.
Thankfully i express my moral out rage with the rogue guilds by killing half of them
I also deal with the slavers by killing them
I deal with the terrorist by killing him
I deal with the pirate hooker by having lots and lots of dirty pirate sex with her.

[Ox_Mox]

The viscount seemed like a good man, but not a leader in any way, shape or form. What kind of leader lets a foreign/potentially hostile army establish a base in the middle of their city and stay there for three years???


On another note, I wonder wtf the arishok was thinking with his plan. He had a boat full of soldiers, which was enough to storm the palace and control part of the city temporarily, and then what? Was he going to convert the nobles to the Qun in the few hours before the guard/templars/mages/every armed citizen in kirkwall rallied and killed him? Throwing away the lives of a head of state (the arishok) and his entire crew for a plan that even he could not have possibly thought had a chance at succeeding seems like a questionable move.

[Camenae]

Given the way the Qun worked, I don't think the Arishok would have let chances of success dictate his ultimate decision. My interpretation of their philosophy was that whatever the Qun demanded, they'd have to do it, even if they thought it was doomed for failure.

[Vicious]

The Arishok himself said that the Qun didn't require him to solve Kirkwall's "problems" and he wouldn't have minded leaving them all to rot.

So nope, no Qun required, he pretty much just lost it.