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[Blacklash93]

How many others paid attention to these codex entries? They're rather interesting and certainly make Kirkwall's history seem much more disturbing

Apparently the magisters of Kirkwall were sacrificing slaves underneath the city by the thousand per year (for centuries) to fuel magic to a mysterious end. All of the blood was channeled through the sewers via grooves that would lead further and further beneath the city. Kirkwall's original streets are also glyph markings as if the entire city itself was some sort of ceremonial ground. Not to mention the veil is so weak that demons can contact the minds of even non-mages.

It was all done underground in complete secrecy, which is odd because there were no restrictions of Tevinter research and secrecy would be unnecessary unless whatever they were doing was very, very important.

They go the "center of it all" in the last entry. The Forgotten Ones are mentioned a few times near the end. He fears one may have already been unbound.

http://dragonage.wik...gma_of_Kirkwall

Modifié par Blacklash93, 28 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[MKDAWUSS]

I kinda quit paying attention to most of them when I saw that they were essentially C&Ps from DAO.

[Vhalkyrie]

The Enigma of Kirkwall is one of the reasons why I turned pro Templar, even though the Templars had their own problems. The Tevinter magisters sound truly brutal, megalomaniac, and sadistic. As oppressive as the mages think the Circle is, it's a spa resort compared to old Tevinter Imperium.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 03:44 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

I haven't really gotten into them during the game; I merely assumed the huge glyphs, weakening of the Veil and all that stuff meant Kirkwall is from where ye olde Tevinter entered the Fade.

[TheBlackBaron]

Actually, is it ever explicitly stated where it was the old Tevinter magisters attempted their "physically enter the Fade" experiment?

Perhaps Kirkwall was where that experiment took place (which might explain why it was hidden from view), or perhaps the magisters were preparing it to be the site of another go at it (which would likewise explain it being hidden).

[Emperor Iaius I]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The Enigma of Kirkwall is one of the reasons why I turned pro Templar, even though the Templars had their own problems. The Tevinter magisters sound truly brutal, megalomaniac, and sadistic. As oppressive as the mages think the Circle is, it's a spa resort compared to old Tevinter Imperium.

HEY! I represent that remark.

edit: Also, I don't think the Circle mages would find the ancient Imperium all that oppressive towards mages.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 28 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The Enigma of Kirkwall is one of the reasons why I turned pro Templar, even though the Templars had their own problems. The Tevinter magisters sound truly brutal, megalomaniac, and sadistic. As oppressive as the mages think the Circle is, it's a spa resort compared to old Tevinter Imperium.

HEY! I represent that remark.

edit: Also, I don't think the Circle mages would find the ancient Imperium all that oppressive towards mages.

No, they become the oppressors, draining everyone of their blood for more power to one up their rivals.  In that kind of competitive landscape, their own blood isn't enough. They start collecting slaves in order to eventually use their blood for greater power.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 04:03 .

[Blacklash93]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Actually, is it ever explicitly stated where it was the old Tevinter magisters attempted their "physically enter the Fade" experiment?

Perhaps Kirkwall was where that experiment took place (which might explain why it was hidden from view), or perhaps the magisters were preparing it to be the site of another go at it (which would likewise explain it being hidden).

The writer considers the possibility that it could have been an attempt to reach the Black City again, but also recognizes that it could be something else.

At any rate, they find something down there that kills one of the band of three and makes the surviving member give up. It's strongly hinted to have been some sort of creature, possibly a Forgotten One. It's pretty vague.

[Emperor Iaius I]

 The magisters freed humanity from the tyranny of the elves, who first extended a hand to humanity and then left them adrift in the winds, calling them by the epithet "shemlen." The magisters built an empire that stemmed an entire continent, built vast cities connected by immense roads, developed a sophisticated urban society, invested significantly in the arts (indeed: witness the artistic and cultural ceremonies associated with Urthemiel), etc etc.

Then the "Maker" imprisoned the Old Gods who had actually been a boon to humanity, because he was jealous of humanity's love for them. Then cursed humanity with the Blight for not depending on his every whim, and worse, for attempting to free their beloved gods. Then, an uncivilized horde of barbarians, assisted by those selfsame pernicious elves, tore down a once great civilization and created a land divided by strife and united only by ignorance and hatred.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 28 mars 2011 - 04:02 .

[Medhia Nox]

It's stated several times that only the "Magisters" are free - the rest of the mages are servants and bootlicks of the Magisters. Not ever mage is suddenly emancipated in Tevinter...

It's a complete meritocracy - but failing to succeed means servitude.

Tevinter is built on slavery.

[Sharkey1337]

WOW, why the hell did Bioware not put all of this at the forefront of the game?! These entries make for a MUCH better plot than what we were given in the Templar/Mage conflict, this goes far deeper into the dark history of Kirkwall than I thought existed! I always noticed these codexes would pop up here and there but I never bothered to read them as I got tired reading every other codex before them. Dammit, now I feel even more cheated as Bioware actually had some phenominal ideas that they failed to even deliver on, why bother hiding something this awesome?!

[Vhalkyrie]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

 The magisters freed humanity from the tyranny of the elves, who first extended a hand to humanity and then left them adrift in the winds, calling them by the epithet "shemlen." The magisters built an empire that stemmed an entire continent, built vast cities connected by immense roads, developed a sophisticated urban society, invested significantly in the arts (indeed: witness the artistic and cultural ceremonies associated with Urthemiel), etc etc.

Then the "Maker" imprisoned the Old Gods who had actually been a boon to humanity, because he was jealous of humanity's love for them. Then cursed humanity with the Blight for not depending on his every whim, and worse, for attempting to free their beloved gods. Then, an uncivilized horde of barbarians, assisted by those selfsame pernicious elves, tore down a once great civilization and created a land divided by strife and united only by ignorance and hatred.

The Tevinter built the empire on blood magic and slavery.

The second paragraph is the Chantry romantic version of events.  The truth is, the Tevinters tore the veil, brought the blight, and demon possessions.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Contemporary Tevinter, certainly. We don't know if this is precisely the case for the ancient Imperium. Regardless, though, it isn't much different than Orlais: recall that the codex emphasizes that the Orlesians call their slaves by the more comfortable word "servant."

The codex also notes that magister is simply a title of nobility: it's just that the Imperium takes merit as an organizing principle. Cailan would never have become an archon. They combine heredity with the merit principle: the greatest magical bloodlines became those of the magisters, but each mage had to succeed and fail on his or her own merits in order to earn the title. It was not inherited.

The arbitrary rule that the magisters had over the commons is no different from the lords and ladies of Orlais, or the merchant-princes of Antiva, and so forth. The magisters are simply villified out of fear and ignorance. They dared to push the envelope of discovery, and they took risks to accomplish it.

The Chantry and its lickspittles are perfectly content to wallow in their mediocrity.

edit:

The truth is, the Tevinters tore the veil, brought the blight, and demon possessions.

Don't make stuff up and then call it truth. Avernus states quite clearly that the taint is alien to demons. He learned this through--you know, research--the sort of thing he notes that ancient Tevinter was known for. Contemporary Thedosians aren't too fond of that whole science thing.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 28 mars 2011 - 04:11 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's stated several times that only the "Magisters" are free - the rest of the mages are servants and bootlicks of the Magisters. Not ever mage is suddenly emancipated in Tevinter...

It's a complete meritocracy - but failing to succeed means servitude.

Tevinter is built on slavery.

It's a "mageocracy".  All mages belong to a Circle, but it is a perversion of the Chantry circle.  Political power comes only from magisters, who come only from the Circle.  Every mage aspires to be a magister's apprentice as it is their best chance of ascending the ranks.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yeah, and that was how Tevinter was founded: as a magocracy. You'll note, though, that the Chantry was perfectly happy to exclude mages from the political process entirely. This is totally fine though, I'm sure. When the magisters returned to political power, the codex notes that the citizenry was ecstatic: but who cares what they think, right? It's better to impose rule by the sword of Andraste and pervert traditional Tevinter government.

[PantheraOnca]

it would have been great if we could make out a glyph from our maps of each portion of the city. Has anyone tried to compile the in-game zone maps into a complete map of kirkwall?

[Vhalkyrie]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Contemporary Tevinter, certainly. We don't know if this is precisely the case for the ancient Imperium. Regardless, though, it isn't much different than Orlais: recall that the codex emphasizes that the Orlesians call their slaves by the more comfortable word "servant."

The codex also notes that magister is simply a title of nobility: it's just that the Imperium takes merit as an organizing principle. Cailan would never have become an archon. They combine heredity with the merit principle: the greatest magical bloodlines became those of the magisters, but each mage had to succeed and fail on his or her own merits in order to earn the title. It was not inherited.

The arbitrary rule that the magisters had over the commons is no different from the lords and ladies of Orlais, or the merchant-princes of Antiva, and so forth. The magisters are simply villified out of fear and ignorance. They dared to push the envelope of discovery, and they took risks to accomplish it.

Orlais lords and ladies don't kill their servants for their blood.

Don't make stuff up and then call it truth. Avernus states quite clearly that the taint is alien to demons. He learned this through--you know, research--the sort of thing he notes that ancient Tevinter was known for. Contemporary Thedosians aren't too fond of that whole science thing.

I'm stating facts from the codex.  The First Blight started in Tevinter.  The Enigma of Kirkwall explicitly states they were experimenting with thinning the veil, as well as other places in the Imperium.  If it's not clear the two are related, it should be.  Read Sister Petrine's codex on The Tevinter Imperium.

"Without the Tevinters, there would have been no blights, no Andraste, and no Chantry.  Every aspect of our world will be altered."

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, and that was how Tevinter
was founded: as a magocracy. You'll note, though, that the Chantry was
perfectly happy to exclude mages from the political process entirely.
This is totally fine though, I'm sure. When the magisters returned to
political power, the codex notes that the citizenry was ecstatic: but
who cares what they think, right? It's better to impose rule by the
sword of Andraste and pervert traditional Tevinter government.

Someone who lived under the Tevinters - Fenris - would not agree.  Andraste, an escaped slave, freed Thedas from the tyranny of Tevinter, to the rejoicing of citizenry.

The reason the Chantry excludes mages from the political process is so they don't become magisters who keep slaves for blood magic.  When a mage goes to the Circle, they lose all title.  It is by design.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 04:55 .

[Batorific]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I'm stating facts from the codex.  The First Blight started in Tevinter.  The Enigma of Kirkwall explicitly states they were experimenting with thinning the veil.  Read Sister Petrine's codex on The Tevinter Imperium.

"Without the Tevinters, there would have been no blights, no Andraste, and no Chantry.  Every aspect of our world will be altered."

the codex can be wrong or biased.

on another note, i love Emperor Iaius I.

[ShrinkingFish]

I think the Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries added much more to the core storyline than many people imagined. The Band of Three's insights into Kirkwall brought much more information to light and helped to explain some of the actual events in the game more than would have otherwise been possible.

I think these entries are actually incredibly important to the plot of the game itself and people who either ignored or dismissed them missed out on a lot of incredible information.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Orlais lords and ladies don't kill their servants for their blood.

No, they don't kill their servants in order to power the process of discovery. However, their lackeys (the chevaliers) happily kill even FREE PEASANTS if they interfere with their right to rape anybody they please.

Yeah. Research, bad? Rape, awesome? I don't think so. The Orlesians are monsters, and they've got the Divine living in their capital!

I'm stating facts from the codex.  The First Blight started in Tevinter.  The Enigma of Kirkwall explicitly states they were experimenting with thinning the veil, as well as other places in the Imperium.  If it's not clear the two are related, it should be.  Read Sister Petrine's codex on The Tevinter Imperium.

"Without the Tevinters, there would have been no blights, no Andraste, and no Chantry.  Every aspect of our world will be altered."

Err, hang on. One sec. Let me find another quote of yours.

"The second paragraph is the Chantry romantic version of events. The truth is, the Tevinters tore the veil, brought the blight, and demon possessions."

So. . . the chantry version is bad, but the truth is the version written by a Chantry sister? Sounds to me that the truth is whatever you'd prefer it to be.

Minor lesson in historiography and questionable sources: when presented with a potentially biased source that states a fact in its own favor, question it. When presented with a potentially biased source that states a fact against itself, take that as significant.

So, for instance, when a Chantry sister says that the Imperium is evil but the Maker is awesome, you wonder. But when a Chantry brother, say, says something about how the return of mages to political power was greeted with acclaim, you think "well, even HE says it's true."

Now, it's important not to lose track of what you were saying: you implied that tearing of the veil "brought the blight, [sic] and demonic possessions" as if the two had anything in common. At least, that's how I'm trying to parse the claim. Regardless, your codex entry does nothing to establish that demons and the blight had anything in common or, assuming that's not your claim, it does nothing more than discuss something that's not under any dispute: that the blight occured in Tevinter after the magisters entered the Fade en masse.

Someone who lived under the Tevinters - Fenris - would not agree.  Andraste, an escaped slave, freed Thedas from the tyranny of Tevinter, to the rejoicing of citizenry.

Oh, so THAT'S why the crowds cheered to see Andraste burned at the stake? Good to know.

The reason the Chantry excludes mages from the political process is so they don't become magisters who keep slaves for blood magic.  When a mage goes to the Circle, they lose all title.  It is by design.

Of course it is. The religion of slaves and the dispossessed is vengeful against its former masters. But sure, I'm sure that political power means that they'll keep slaves for blood magic. I mean, there's no other way to keep slaves for blood magic. Keeping mages powerless (and therefore unable to challenge the Chantry that oppresses them) is just a fringe benefit, I'm sure . . .

Batorific:

on another note, i love Emperor Iaius I.

I try. Patriotism is lacking in these modern times, but somebody's got to carry the torch for the Old Gods and the ancient ways.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 28 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[Batorific]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I think the Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries added much more to the core storyline than many people imagined. The Band of Three's insights into Kirkwall brought much more information to light and helped to explain some of the actual events in the game more than would have otherwise been possible.

I think these entries are actually incredibly important to the plot of the game itself and people who either ignored or dismissed them missed out on a lot of incredible information.

seconded.

the mage crisis in Kirkwall seems to be a result of a very very thin veil and demons not only influencing mages, but their captors as well.  the demonic influence must have had a huge strain on everyone in the city, causing paranoia and corruption where there otherwise have been none.

i think that details like this should have been more on the forefront of the story.  otherwise one would assume all the mages and templars be crazy for no reason. i.e. Orsino's random breakdown even if you side with the mages.

[ShrinkingFish]

Batorific wrote...

i think that details like this should have been more on the forefront of the story.  otherwise one would assume all the mages and templars be crazy for no reason. i.e. Orsino's random breakdown even if you side with the mages.

While I agree that it would be nice if more people were concious of these aspects of the story, I do rather enjoy the fact that they didn't shove the exposition down your throat. Or rather, I really enjoyed the fact that they didn't simply spoon feed you the plot.

But, in regards to what the Enigma adds to the story, it makes me believe that, because of the thinness of the Veil, the mages are more suseptible to possession by the simple fact that they have a level of added contact with demons in general. Therefore it can be theorized that the reason so many mages seemed to lose their minds and fall to demonic influence was actually not necessarily due to their own weakness but the very conditions of the Circle itself.

A few of the mages describe their time in the Circle as being locked away in their cells. These cells apparently have no windows for light or air and by all evidences are meant to house only individuals. Essentially these mages are locked in a small, confined, stuffy, dark room, all alone for long stretches at a time. There are also allusions by some of the mages to a type of abuse that the Templars visit upon them. One of the mages goes as far as saying "The Templars... they ask us for... things..." in a very uncomfortable manner and refuses to go on about the subject. This unwillingness to express or revisit the circumstances of these "favors" suggests the posibility of sexual abuse, or quite possibly, something else akin to it in nature.

Under these conditions it can be reasonably expected that these mages would have difficulty maintaining the stability of their minds. After all, solitary confinement is used as an added punishment to inmates and the like. And lack of light and fresh air is known to stress the mind considerably. As such these over stressed and mentally overtasked mages would be incredibly vulnerable to a mental attack. And since the Viel is so thin in Kirkwall demons can much more easily access these mages while they sit, alone and desperate, in their cells. Thus resulting in more possessions, abominations and general mental instability.

As such it could be said that the original mistake that caused the horrible circumstances and events that took place in Circle of Kirkwall was the choice to build a Circle there in the first place. Had the Chantry researched or somehow known about the condition of the Viel in Kirkwall I'm sure they would have never thought it appropriate to build a Circle there. And if they had not then all the abuses that took place could have been avoided.

Just a thought.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 28 mars 2011 - 05:31 .

[berelinde]

I kept thinking that finding them all would unlock a quest, but it never happened. Maybe it unlocks DA3? Guess we'll find out.

[Silveryne]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I'm stating facts from the codex.  The First Blight started in Tevinter.  The Enigma of Kirkwall explicitly states they were experimenting with thinning the veil, as well as other places in the Imperium.  If it's not clear the two are related, it should be.  Read Sister Petrine's codex on The Tevinter Imperium.

"Without the Tevinters, there would have been no blights, no Andraste, and no Chantry.  Every aspect of our world will be altered."

I feel the need to point out that this codex is stating the opinion of a character in the game. It has Sister Petrine's bias in it. To assume that if the Imperium had never existed the blights would never have happened could be flawed. The Chantry and the states that exist in Thedas have an interest in blaming Tevinter for many problems. The history we know has been distorted a lot -- we have to take the word of historians, largely religious scholars, as being correct. It's possible things went down differently than the Chantry says it did. Things do get distorted over the course of a thousand plus years. There is no good reason to assume that the Chantry is a source of all that is good and right and would never distort truth to have opinion swayed in its own favor.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that if Origins had been set in the Imperium instead of Ferelden, we'd be a lot more sympathetic to Tevinter and their Chantry. We'd probably think that they were "correct", and have a very different opinion on the topics of blood magic and slavery. We'd probably think some things are worse than we do now -- alienages, for example. Elves in the rest of Thedas are largely confined to their station -- there is no upward movement from an alienage, unless you escape to join the Dalish. Elves in the Imperium, however, have the potential to be apprenticed to Magisters, if Fenris' sister is anything to go by. Some elves (like Fenris) even sell themselves in order to get a better life for their families.

[Emperor Iaius I]

ShrinkingFish: - Your analysis seems spot on.