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[Blacklash93]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

 The magisters freed humanity from the tyranny of the elves, who first extended a hand to humanity and then left them adrift in the winds, calling them by the epithet "shemlen." The magisters built an empire that stemmed an entire continent, built vast cities connected by immense roads, developed a sophisticated urban society, invested significantly in the arts (indeed: witness the artistic and cultural ceremonies associated with Urthemiel), etc etc.

Then the "Maker" imprisoned the Old Gods who had actually been a boon to humanity, because he was jealous of humanity's love for them. Then cursed humanity with the Blight for not depending on his every whim, and worse, for attempting to free their beloved gods. Then, an uncivilized horde of barbarians, assisted by those selfsame pernicious elves, tore down a once great civilization and created a land divided by strife and united only by ignorance and hatred.

The Tevinter built the empire on blood magic and slavery.

The second paragraph is the Chantry romantic version of events.  The truth is, the Tevinters tore the veil, brought the blight, and demon possessions.

I thought those thing occured naturally.

The veil isn't always deliberately torn/thinned and demons have always been able to posess mages.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 28 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

ShrinkingFish: - Your analysis seems spot on.

Thank you. That is a rather unexpected compliment on these forums.

[Batorific]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

As such it could be said that the original mistake that caused the horrible circumstances and events that took place in Circle of Kirkwall was the choice to build a Circle there in the first place. Had the Chantry researched or somehow known about the condition of the Viel in Kirkwall I'm sure they would have never thought it appropriate to build a Circle there. And if they had not then all the abuses that took place could have been avoided.

Just a thought.

i actually came to the idea that perhaps the veil is even thinner than Enigma suggests.  that demonic influence was the source of the abuse and corruption itself.  what better way to shove mages into their hands than to abuse them through way of the templars?  and templars would not be accustomed to resisting demons, or even realize they were under attack by them.

not to mention once the Idol was within the city... its reaction with the thin veil must have been quite something.  some ended up influenced by the idol, while others were not.  (see; Varric going a little crazy while no one else heard a thing)

as for the point of "why have a circle where the veil is so thin?", demons are masters of soothing and misleading... perhaps they themselves were keeping the surveyors from realizing just how dangerous the site is.

and its not just Kirkwall.  the entire Sundermount area, Bone Pit, and city are all incredibly dangerous.  the veil in the whole damn area is thin as can be.

[ShrinkingFish]

Batorific wrote...

and its not just Kirkwall.  the entire Sundermount area, Bone Pit, and city are all incredibly dangerous.  the veil in the whole damn area is thin as can be.

I did notice that. And it leads to some very interesting theories regarding Merrill's final companion quest and the actions of her Keeper and those of her Clan.

Otherwise, interesting points. Though I imagine many of the problems in Kirkwall were the result of little more the genuine human weakness and not necessarily the influence of semi-ambiguous beings of evil from another realm.

Such is demonstrated early on in an Act I quest. The Magister one. Where you find his son the serial killer. He blames his actions on demons, excusing his own responsibility in pointing at well known outside influences. But he is nothing more than criminally insane. That was actually one of my favorite quests in the game because it pointed out that demons and magic were not necessary for evil to take place but that it was present in man unsolicited.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 28 mars 2011 - 05:44 .

[Satyricon331]

I'm really glad the OP posted that link. I only found three of the entries, and they didn't make much sense that way. The full set is fascinating.

[RubiconI7]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Batorific wrote...

i think that details like this should have been more on the forefront of the story.  otherwise one would assume all the mages and templars be crazy for no reason. i.e. Orsino's random breakdown even if you side with the mages.

While I agree that it would be nice if more people were concious of these aspects of the story, I do rather enjoy the fact that they didn't shove the exposition down your throat. Or rather, I really enjoyed the fact that they didn't simply spoon feed you the plot.

But, in regards to what the Enigma adds to the story, it makes me believe that, because of the thinness of the Veil, the mages are more suseptible to possession by the simple fact that they have a level of added contact with demons in general. Therefore it can be theorized that the reason so many mages seemed to lose their minds and fall to demonic influence was actually not necessarily due to their own weakness but the very conditions of the Circle itself.

A few of the mages describe their time in the Circle as being locked away in their cells. These cells apparently have no windows for light or air and by all evidences are meant to house only individuals. Essentially these mages are locked in a small, confined, stuffy, dark room, all alone for long stretches at a time. There are also allusions by some of the mages to a type of abuse that the Templars visit upon them. One of the mages goes as far as saying "The Templars... they ask us for... things..." in a very uncomfortable manner and refuses to go on about the subject. This unwillingness to express or revisit the circumstances of these "favors" suggests the posibility of sexual abuse, or quite possibly, something else akin to it in nature.

Under these conditions it can be reasonably expected that these mages would have difficulty maintaining the stability of their minds. After all, solitary confinement is used as an added punishment to inmates and the like. And lack of light and fresh air is known to stress the mind considerably. As such these over stressed and mentally overtasked mages would be incredibly vulnerable to a mental attack. And since the Viel is so thin in Kirkwall demons can much more easily access these mages while they sit, alone and desperate, in their cells. Thus resulting in more possessions, abominations and general mental instability.

As such it could be said that the original mistake that caused the horrible circumstances and events that took place in Circle of Kirkwall was the choice to build a Circle there in the first place. Had the Chantry researched or somehow known about the condition of the Viel in Kirkwall I'm sure they would have never thought it appropriate to build a Circle there. And if they had not then all the abuses that took place could have been avoided.

Just a thought.

A like minded peer.

The Enigma of Kirkwall made the decision between mage/templar much more difficult for me as both had parties had objective reasons and responsibilities they ignored and neglected. The codex entries just adds to the argument with the mages of how their weakness is not of their mind but of their environment. Similar to how the Templar Order itself is not cruel and oppressive, it is Meredith and her biased experience as little Meredith of how her family was killed by an abomination.

[Batorific]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

I did notice that. And it leads to some very interesting theories regarding Merrill's final companion quest and the actions of her Keeper and those of her Clan.

after the tragedy of DA2's climax... i imagine the veil must be downright torn in places. all those mages using blood magic and summoning demons, and becoming posessed.  and of course the regular mass death thing that is known to also weaken the veil.

but that just plants the seeds of more massacre.  a thin veil leading to another tragedy and another until demons are able to pass right into the real world.  and what of other Circles?  they'll all end up resorting to these same things and weaken the veil all around thedas....

is it possible that this massive mage war could end up tearing open the veil all across thedas?  are these all clues to the things we see hinted at within DA2?

and what would happen should the veil massively tear open all across thedas?  perhaps this is the magic returning as Sandal said?


...i'm rambling.

[ShrinkingFish]

Batorific wrote...

...i'm rambling.

Haha, only a little. But it is definitely something to think about.

But rest assured I will (continue to) watch Sandal and Flemeth very closely in future games.

[Emperor Iaius I]

When does Sandal's prophecy occur? I've not once been able to trigger it. He just babbles about how much he likes my house.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 28 mars 2011 - 05:53 .

[ShrinkingFish]

I'm really not 100% on how it is triggered or when it becomes active. I just always made a point to talk to Sandal and his father when I was in my home as cut scenes and dialogues seemed both abundant and random from them.

It is definitely in Act III though. Maybe.

Not sure.

Edit: Got the Act wrong in original post. My bad.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 28 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[noxsachi]

One interesting thing I will note about the Veil being so thin in Kirkwall is that it pretty much confirms that demons grant blood magic, blood mage fun aside. In Seb's Act II quest you encounter the senior Hariman matron in the basement of their estate conversing with a demon, when you fight them she uses blood magic. However when you talk to Flora about it later they state they have never had any mages in their line. Given her age and position I doubt the elder Hariman was an apostate, but that the desire demon gave blood magic to a non-mage. Which is an interesting and scary thought.

Also what is this Sandal Prophecy? He talks about a scary old lady at the foot of his bed but I don't remember anything else from him.

Modifié par noxsachi, 28 mars 2011 - 06:02 .

[Satyricon331]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

When does Sandal's prophecy occur? I've not once been able to trigger it. He just babbles about how much he likes my house.

If you click on him in your house, it has a 1 in 100 chance of firing.

Does anyone know if the Veil is supposed to mend itself (however gradually) over time?  If it doesn't at all, then since death numbers only accumulate over the centuries, it would be inevitable - if life exists long enough - that it would eventually tear altogether and this world and the Fade would become one.

[Batorific]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Does anyone know if the Veil is supposed to mend itself (however gradually) over time?  If it doesn't at all, then since death numbers only accumulate over the centuries, it would be inevitable - if life exists long enough - that it would eventually tear altogether and this world and the Fade would become one.

i think the Veil can recover, but it takes a long time.  places remain "haunted" or "cursed" for very long periods of time.  but its also possible that it can only recover when effort is actually made. magic of some sort being used on the veil from both sides to close it up.  if the veil doesnt recover naturally, a worldwide tear would be well in the making by the start of the mage war.

on the issue of Blood Magic being taught by demons, it makes sense because demons need blood to be spilled in order to weaken the Veil.  that's basically how demon summoning works.  blood allows passage through the veil.  not to say it HAS to be taught by demons, just that demons have the best benefit from a mage turning to it.

[ShakeyMac]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Orlais lords and ladies don't kill their servants for their blood.

No, they don't kill their servants in order to power the process of discovery. However, their lackeys (the chevaliers) happily kill even FREE PEASANTS if they interfere with their right to rape anybody they please.

Yeah. Research, bad? Rape, awesome? I don't think so. The Orlesians are monsters, and they've got the Divine living in their capital!

I'm stating facts from the codex.  The First Blight started in Tevinter.  The Enigma of Kirkwall explicitly states they were experimenting with thinning the veil, as well as other places in the Imperium.  If it's not clear the two are related, it should be.  Read Sister Petrine's codex on The Tevinter Imperium.

"Without the Tevinters, there would have been no blights, no Andraste, and no Chantry.  Every aspect of our world will be altered."

Err, hang on. One sec. Let me find another quote of yours.

"The second paragraph is the Chantry romantic version of events. The truth is, the Tevinters tore the veil, brought the blight, and demon possessions."

So. . . the chantry version is bad, but the truth is the version written by a Chantry sister? Sounds to me that the truth is whatever you'd prefer it to be.

Minor lesson in historiography and questionable sources: when presented with a potentially biased source that states a fact in its own favor, question it. When presented with a potentially biased source that states a fact against itself, take that as significant.

So, for instance, when a Chantry sister says that the Imperium is evil but the Maker is awesome, you wonder. But when a Chantry brother, say, says something about how the return of mages to political power was greeted with acclaim, you think "well, even HE says it's true."

Now, it's important not to lose track of what you were saying: you implied that tearing of the veil "brought the blight, [sic] and demonic possessions" as if the two had anything in common. At least, that's how I'm trying to parse the claim. Regardless, your codex entry does nothing to establish that demons and the blight had anything in common or, assuming that's not your claim, it does nothing more than discuss something that's not under any dispute: that the blight occured in Tevinter after the magisters entered the Fade en masse.

Someone who lived under the Tevinters - Fenris - would not agree.  Andraste, an escaped slave, freed Thedas from the tyranny of Tevinter, to the rejoicing of citizenry.

Oh, so THAT'S why the crowds cheered to see Andraste burned at the stake? Good to know.

The reason the Chantry excludes mages from the political process is so they don't become magisters who keep slaves for blood magic.  When a mage goes to the Circle, they lose all title.  It is by design.

Of course it is. The religion of slaves and the dispossessed is vengeful against its former masters. But sure, I'm sure that political power means that they'll keep slaves for blood magic. I mean, there's no other way to keep slaves for blood magic. Keeping mages powerless (and therefore unable to challenge the Chantry that oppresses them) is just a fringe benefit, I'm sure . . .

Batorific:

on another note, i love Emperor Iaius I.

I try. Patriotism is lacking in these modern times, but somebody's got to carry the torch for the Old Gods and the ancient ways.

I'm not a fan of you and your Imperium Iaius.  Don't get me wrong, I'm no Chantry lackey either, I just find myself with an aversion towards...extremes.  I'd prefer to keep both at an arms length if you will.

Having said that, I like the cut of your jib.

[Vicious]

the old Imperium was a magocracy and those at top were lich-like Mages who sacrificed people en masse Aztec-style to increase their own already unholy lifespans.

And from what Fenris says, the current Tevinter society is rapidly returning to that.

[Vicious]

What's a forgotten one?

[Satyricon331]

Batorific wrote...
i think the Veil can recover, but it takes a long time.  places remain "haunted" or "cursed" for very long periods of time.  but its also possible that it can only recover when effort is actually made. magic of some sort being used on the veil from both sides to close it up.  if the veil doesnt recover naturally, a worldwide tear would be well in the making by the start of the mage war.

on the issue of Blood Magic being taught by demons, it makes sense because demons need blood to be spilled in order to weaken the Veil.  that's basically how demon summoning works.  blood allows passage through the veil.  not to say it HAS to be taught by demons, just that demons have the best benefit from a mage turning to it.

hmm, I'm not sure it's fair to conclude anything about how quickly any tearing might occur, at least as far as the lore I know goes?  (Incidentally, it occurs to me that if the population increases exponentially the way it does in RL, and the rate at which the Veil mends itself is constant (perhaps 0), then it's possible there would be a tipping point where suddenly the Veil loses integrity even though before it was stable.  I wonder if BW designed the Veil situation to be unstable on purpose?)

Your idea about death's weakening the Veil being linked to blood is interesting - very possibly true.

[Batorific]

Satyricon331 wrote...

hmm, I'm not sure it's fair to conclude anything about how quickly any tearing might occur, at least as far as the lore I know goes?  (Incidentally, it occurs to me that if the population increases exponentially the way it does in RL, and the rate at which the Veil mends itself is constant (perhaps 0), then it's possible there would be a tipping point where suddenly the Veil loses integrity even though before it was stable.  I wonder if BW designed the Veil situation to be unstable on purpose?)

Your idea about death's weakening the Veil being linked to blood is interesting - very possibly true.

i'm just suggesting that its possible under the theory that the Veil doesn't recover.  we've seen places like the Blackmarsh where 1 great blood ritual caused a massive tear in the veil.  now over many centuries of blood magic and demonology abuse, Tevinter dominated places would have a very very thin and fragile veil.

and then we get the mage war.  with that many mages being forced to turn to blood magic for their mere survival, the damage done to an already weakened veil would be catastrophic, no?  at least in theory.  it's ultimately all guessing.

put in perspective with Sandal's prophecy... it could be telling of this great tear to come.  the Fade is the realm of magic, and without the Veil to seperate them, would that not mean that magic would return to Thedas in its fullest?  Perhaps the Veil didn't exist at all once, and thats what the world would be returning to.


EDIT:  it also seems relevant under the "Veil Doesn't Recover" Theory that more and more mages are born every year because of the weakening of the veil all across thedas.  perhaps it is exposure to the Fade in excess, without the Veil's protection that leads to a mage child being born, rather than purely bloodlines.  obviously, those born of mages would have a lot more expsoure from the get-go.

this Enigma thing brings up so many interesting thought-trains all because of the simple nature of the Veil.



... I'm still rambling and i don't even care anymore.

Modifié par Batorific, 28 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Veil can be rebound (see: Soldier's Peak) but yeah, it doesn't seem to restore itself on its own.

[Satyricon331]

Batorific wrote...
i'm just suggesting that its possible under the theory that the Veil doesn't recover.  we've seen places like the Blackmarsh where 1 great blood ritual caused a massive tear in the veil.  now over many centuries of blood magic and demonology abuse, Tevinter dominated places would have a very very thin and fragile veil.

and then we get the mage war.  with that many mages being forced to turn to blood magic for their mere survival, the damage done to an already weakened veil would be catastrophic, no?  at least in theory.  it's ultimately all guessing.

Oh, fair point.  I had forgotten about the Blackmarsh example; I've only played through DAA once.  The ones I had in mind was the Brecilian (sp?) Forest, which built up over centuries, and the Warden's Keep one which came fast but was very local.  

Modifié par Satyricon331, 28 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[Satyricon331]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Veil can be rebound (see: Soldier's Peak) but yeah, it doesn't seem to restore itself on its own.

There, though, wasn't it just Avernus' interventions that mended it?  I didn't think the Veil was healing itself?

edit: good grief, I must be up too late.  My reading comprehension is down the toilet, apparently.  Its not restoring itself on its own makes sense but I can't recall any lore on the point specifically.  Either way, it's a minor point since concentrations of death seem to happen so often anyway.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 28 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Batorific]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Veil can be rebound (see: Soldier's Peak) but yeah, it doesn't seem to restore itself on its own.

There, though, wasn't it just Avernus' interventions that mended it?  I didn't think the Veil was healing itself?

Through effort, it can be mended.

wouldn't it be ironic for the mage war to cause a mass genocide of mages, only to tear the veil... which is something really only mages themselves can fix?  or have i missed an example of pure non-mages being able to repair the veil. because i think that requires magic.

[Pinely]

Vicious wrote...

What's a forgotten one?

That's what I'm wondering.

The description in The Enigma of Kirkwall is unclear.  The writer doesn't know if what they uncovered was a Forgotten One or a Demon, or something else entirely.  All we know is that the Magisters had "bound" this creature (or creatues) beneath Kirkwall and that Blood Magic was used over a long period of time to some end, weakening the veil.  The writer is very clearly writing sometime after the Kirkwall rebellion, as he references Templars.  Additionally, it seems that this ritual took place after the first Blight, but before the rebellion.

We can be sure that, whatever a Forgotten One is, it isn't a run of the mill demon, dragon, or darkspawn, as the writer would recognize something so common.  An Old God in some form is a possibility, as Forgotten One sounds vaguely similar to Old God, though I imagine the writer would recognize and identify an Old God as such. 

I can't imagine that nuking the Chantry, animating statues with lyrium weaponry, unleashing Blood Magic, and death is good for the veil or whatever bindings keep the Forgotten One(s) bound.

[TobiTobsen]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The Veil can be rebound (see: Soldier's Peak) but yeah, it doesn't seem to restore itself on its own.

Would be interesting to know in what magnitude the Veil can be rebound. In Soldiers Peak just one mage ripped it. In Kirkwall the whole city was so drenched in blood that possibly the whole city and the land surrounding it exist in one freaking huge gap. (Did I already mention that it was one brilliant idea to buld a circle there? )

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[trembli0s]

I made a post about this close to 3 weeks ago and I completely agree.

This was the most interesting lore in the game that most people probably never even saw haha.