147 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

wulfsturm wrote...

I'll just leave this here:

An abomination is a broad term for the result of a demon possessing a living human, qunari or elf. While mages stand the greatest chance of being possessed, as they draw their magic from the Fade, it is made clear that any elf or human is a potential host. The ritual of Harrowing employed by the Circle of Magi
results in abominations from time to time. While it is theoretically
possible to free someone who has been possessed, it has never been done,
mostly because of the risk involved in such an attempt—it is much safer
to utterly destroy the creature. There was, perhaps, one exception to
this rule however, when a Grey Warden enlisted the aid of the Fereldenmages in order to enter the Fade and attempt to save the son of the Arl ofRedcliffe, when he was possessed by a Desire Demon during the events of the Fifth Blight.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Abomination

So what? The chantry just tells everybody that spirits and demons are different things because they embody different aspects of human emotion. Demons the bad ones and the spirit the good ones. In the end they are the same. Just ask the Dalish.

Cristoff/Justice in DAA was an abomination. And Justice was a spirit, no demon.

[Glorfindel709]

No Angry, they are not. This is canonical, there is a difference between Spirits and Demons.

Demons are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the vices of humanity - pride, desire, rage, sloth, etc etc. They actively seek a way into the real world in order to bend it to their will.

Spirits on the other hand are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the VIRTUES of humanity - Justice, Faith, Honor, Valor, etc etc. They are (usually) content with remaining in the Fade, rarely seeking out humans.

Demons and Spirits are diametrically opposed based on the virtue or vice they take as their own.

[Talladarr]

Exactly, sayign that it was a "Demon" doesn't change the fact. and as the Warden can say to Wynne back in DA:O "One is not an abomination if one still retains their humanity" Anders has lost his humanity, thus, Abomination.

[The Angry One]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

No Angry, they are not. This is canonical, there is a difference between Spirits and Demons.

Demons are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the vices of humanity - pride, desire, rage, sloth, etc etc. They actively seek a way into the real world in order to bend it to their will.

Spirits on the other hand are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the VIRTUES of humanity - Justice, Faith, Honor, Valor, etc etc. They are (usually) content with remaining in the Fade, rarely seeking out humans.

Demons and Spirits are diametrically opposed based on the virtue or vice they take as their own.

No, that's the Chantry explanation. That isn't necesarilly fact, and isn't the view held by the Dalish.
Demons and spirits come from the same place and function the same way, both are single-minded about the aspect they represent.

[Talladarr]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

No Angry, they are not. This is canonical, there is a difference between Spirits and Demons.

Demons are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the vices of humanity - pride, desire, rage, sloth, etc etc. They actively seek a way into the real world in order to bend it to their will.

Spirits on the other hand are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the VIRTUES of humanity - Justice, Faith, Honor, Valor, etc etc. They are (usually) content with remaining in the Fade, rarely seeking out humans.

Demons and Spirits are diametrically opposed based on the virtue or vice they take as their own.

That stuff only even matters if one BELIEVES in the Maker's existance to begin with!

[wulfsturm]

wulf, why do you trust what the
Marebomination says but criticize the entire party for trusting the
empty promises of the Fade demon?

I don't trust "the Marebomination" I trust Marethari's wisdom and knowledge over someone else's pride.

The Angry One wrote...

I'll just leave this here:

Point being? Demons and spirits are the same type of being.

Technically true, however...

However, the spirits that are not demons are, in fact, benevolent. There are spirits of Compassion, Justice, Valor
and Fortitude, among others. Unlike demons, these benevolent spirits
do not wish to cross the veil, and their benevolence does not mean that
they will go out of their way to help the mortal world. However, if
someone such as a Spirit Healer does summon them, they will try to help.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Spirits

While a demon may be malevolent, a spirit that isn't a demon is in fact benevolent. And therein lies the differance.

[Deztyn]

What does it matter anyway? Wynne is clearly still herself. Anders is clearly not. Anything else is just details.

[Glorfindel709]

I personally don't believe in the Maker. However, that is what we know of the Spirits from the Spirits.

Whether or not you believe in the Maker, the difference between Spirits and Demons is canonically shown and cannot be denied.

[The Angry One]

wulfsturm wrote...

I don't trust "the Marebomination" I trust Marethari's wisdom and knowledge over someone else's pride.

And yet Marethari is the one who becomes an abomination.

While a demon may be malevolent, a spirit that isn't a demon is in fact benevolent. And therein lies the differance.

I'm sure Grand Cleric Elthina is in awe of Justice's benevolence.

Modifié par The Angry One, 28 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[TobiTobsen]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

No Angry, they are not. This is canonical, there is a difference between Spirits and Demons.

Demons are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the vices of humanity - pride, desire, rage, sloth, etc etc. They actively seek a way into the real world in order to bend it to their will.

Spirits on the other hand are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the VIRTUES of humanity - Justice, Faith, Honor, Valor, etc etc. They are (usually) content with remaining in the Fade, rarely seeking out humans.

Demons and Spirits are diametrically opposed based on the virtue or vice they take as their own.

I don't see how that makes them different species. They are the same beings and just differ in the aspect of human emotion they pick.

There are angy , proud , honorable or faithful people... in the end they are all human beings.

[wulfsturm]

Deztyn wrote...

What does it matter anyway? Wynne is clearly still herself. Anders is clearly not. Anything else is just details.

The Devil is in the details as they say.

[The Angry One]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I personally don't believe in the Maker. However, that is what we know of the Spirits from the Spirits.

Whether or not you believe in the Maker, the difference between Spirits and Demons is canonically shown and cannot be denied.

And the only differences shown are the aspects they take on.
In DA2 we clearly see that it is not all sunshine and roses either. Justice is NOT benevolent. It IS angry, spiteful and ruthless.
But then we knew that in DA:O, Valor is perfectly willing to duel an apprentice mage to the death.
Spirits, like demons are what they are.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Wulf, errr... the person who got invaded by a pride demon is probably the one who had pride to begin with. Marethari thought she could contain it.  She thought she knew better than Merrill. What's all this sound like? Oh, I don't know--pride?

Glorfindel709 wrote...

No Angry, they are not. This is canonical, there is a difference between Spirits and Demons.

Demons are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the vices of humanity - pride, desire, rage, sloth, etc etc. They actively seek a way into the real world in order to bend it to their will.

Spirits on the other hand are the first children of the Maker who exemplify and adopt the VIRTUES of humanity - Justice, Faith, Honor, Valor, etc etc. They are (usually) content with remaining in the Fade, rarely seeking out humans.

Demons and Spirits are diametrically opposed based on the virtue or vice they take as their own.

 It's an invented term, not a scientific one. Spirits and demons are the same thing. They are 100% the same thing, the only difference is which mortal trait the Fade denizen has chosen to embody. As Merrill notes, all spirits are dangerous because embodying a single trait to the exclusion of all else means extremism: justice and vengeance are the same thing because Justice is single-minded. Virtus stat in medio sed δαιμονες εσχατιας παρενδημουσιν. It's a useful illustrative principle. A virtue is only a virtue in moderation. Spirits, by adopting these traits to the exclusion of all else, are just as bad as demons.

Merrill has this very discussion with Anders! He almost kills an innocent because of Justice, and Merrill points out that she always understood that all spirits were dangerous, but Anders didn't.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 28 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[Deztyn]

"The Devil is in the details as they say."

You mean 'demon'?

*Is shot*

Modifié par Deztyn, 28 mars 2011 - 08:35 .

[Glorfindel709]

Justice is not Justice. Justice was warped by the anger and resentment in Anders into a spirit of Vengence. He might as well be a demon at this point.

Valor, is perfectly willing to duel an apprentice mage to death because all he sees and all he is *is* valor, and valor demands single combat to prove your worth.

Spirits and Demons take the aspects of humanity and bring them to their extremes. Justice in DA:A cannot see anything but pure justice - circumstance doesn't matter. Is it good? No.

But it's certainly better than actively preying on humanity seeking an in into the real world.

[wulfsturm]

The Angry One wrote...
And yet Marethari is the one who becomes an abomination.

I'm sure Grand Cleric Elthina is in awe of Justice's benevolence.

Yes, I do believe that's what would be construed as a "sacrifice." Terrible, I know.

Veangeance is not Justice, they are two seperate things entirely. Anders didn't blow up the Chantry as an act of Justice, but as an act of Vengeance. And that still doesn't make him an abominaiton; it makes him a sad, vengefull man.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Who cares if it's better? We're not talking degrees. Yeah, murdering one person is probably not as bad as nuking a chantry, but we're not about to hand Positive Role Model Of the Year awards to either person, y'know?

An abomination is an abomination. Being a slightly better abomination is nice and all, but it doesn't help anything.

[Khayness]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Justice in DA:A cannot see anything but pure justice - circumstance doesn't matter. Is it good? No.

Jaywalking?

Prepare to die.

[The Angry One]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Justice is not Justice. Justice was warped by the anger and resentment in Anders into a spirit of Vengence. He might as well be a demon at this point.

Less warped, more reacted. Justice is constantly challenged by the events around Anders and Anders' own experiences. Hence why it's so dangerous.

Valor, is perfectly willing to duel an apprentice mage to death because all he sees and all he is *is* valor, and valor demands single combat to prove your worth.

That's the point, he is Valor to the exclusion of anything else, just like Desire is that to the exclusion of all else.

Spirits and Demons take the aspects of humanity and bring them to their extremes. Justice in DA:A cannot see anything but pure justice - circumstance doesn't matter. Is it good? No.

And even in DA:A apart from Anders, Justice held extremist views.

But it's certainly better than actively preying on humanity seeking an in into the real world.

Better or not, they are still the same "race".

Modifié par The Angry One, 28 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[Talladarr]

For anyone still arguing the difference, this, to me, proves that both Demons and Spirits are the same damned thing.

Listen to it at 8:08, it's Anders and Justice party banter

[The Angry One]

wulfsturm wrote...

Yes, I do believe that's what would be construed as a "sacrifice." Terrible, I know.

A sacrifice that was likely not needed, a sacrifice the demon convinced her was necesarry.

Veangeance is not Justice, they are two seperate things entirely. Anders didn't blow up the Chantry as an act of Justice, but as an act of Vengeance. And that still doesn't make him an abominaiton; it makes him a sad, vengefull man.

That's irrelevant, Anders still did it because Vengeance compelled him to. Whether Justice was warped or not, he's still a merged being no longer acting like he would before.

[Glorfindel709]

I personally look to the Spirit of Faith as an example of what can happen when a benevolent spirit is not corrupted by the person co-inhabiting it.

Wynne never nuked a Chantry. At most she stitched my socks and told me bed-time stories about griffons.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...... I just defended Wynne.... what is happening to me?

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 28 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[OldMan91]

The Angry One wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

I don't trust "the Marebomination" I trust Marethari's wisdom and knowledge over someone else's pride.

And yet Marethari is the one who becomes an abomination.

While a demon may be malevolent, a spirit that isn't a demon is in fact benevolent. And therein lies the differance.

I'm sure Grand Cleric Elthina is in awe of Justice's benevolence.

Didn't the spirit of Justice change to be a spirit of Vengeance, and in so doing became a demon?

Modifié par OldMan91, 28 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[Deztyn]

I like to think Justice was warped by Anders bias as much as his anger.

[TobiTobsen]

Why exactly are Justice and Vengeance spirits anyway? Those two things are not exactly what i would call benevolent. Not even justice. There is a reason Lady Justice is always pictured with a blindfold, scales and a sword. And is vengeance a demon?

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 mars 2011 - 08:44 .