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[Talladarr]

Talladarr wrote...

For anyone still arguing the difference, this, to me, proves that both Demons and Spirits are the same damned thing.

Listen to it at 8:08, it's Anders and Justice party banter

Listen to the banter >=[

[The Angry One]

Talladarr wrote...

For anyone still arguing the difference, this, to me, proves that both Demons and Spirits are the same damned thing.

Listen to it at 8:08, it's Anders and Justice party banter

I miss old fun loving non-abomination-terrorist-twit Anders.

[Talladarr]

I know! He was my FAVORITE party member ins DAA

[Glorfindel709]

Justice is considered a benevolent spirit because the ideal of Justice is one that we as humans try to strive for.

I really think Isabela said it best while bantering with Anders

* Anders: There is justice in the world.
* Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
* Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
* Anders: Yes.
* Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
* Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
* Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

[Deztyn]

Anders 2.0 is not even Anders.

It's like they said, "Hey write him however you like, just make sure he mentions Ser Pounce-a-Lot once or twice to remind people he's supposed to be Anders."

Modifié par Deztyn, 28 mars 2011 - 08:50 .

[TobiTobsen]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Justice is considered a benevolent spirit because the ideal of Justice is one that we as humans try to strive for.

I really think Isabela said it best while bantering with Anders

* Anders: There is justice in the world.
* Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
* Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
* Anders: Yes.
* Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?
* Isabela: It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started.
* Isabela: Justice is an idea. It makes sense in a world of ideas, but not in our world.

Hm... okay. Makes sense. So as long the idea behind it is good it's a spirit. If not it's a demon. So Vengeance would be a demon? Since the Chantry only names the demons after what i would call the seven deadly sins.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[Talladarr]

Chantry this, chantry that! I SPIT on your chantry! SPIT I SAY! SPIT!!!! (Lol)
To be honest, I don't like the religious views of the chantry, they remind me of the Christians FAR too much, preventing scientific discovery for neigh on 900 years and mounting Holy Crusades on anyone that doesn't believe the right thing.

[Glorfindel709]

That was my understanding of the Lore, Tobi, though I fully admit I could be off base and will await Word of God(or Gaider depending on what you decided to institute as your G and how you feel about blasphemy) to confirm it.

Vengence I think is a special case - he is a former spirit corrupted by his host. I guess that could make him a demon, though I prefer to just put him in the insane casper category myself.
~~

@Talladarr

Dammit, and I was about to invite you to my church.... :innocent:

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 28 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[OldMan91]

Well according to Justice in DA:A, demons are spirits who have been perverted by their desires. If we go by that definition, we could say that Justice was "perverted" by his desire to seek retribution and Anders' hate of Templars, becoming a spirit of Vengeance.

[TobiTobsen]

Talladarr wrote...

Chantry this, chantry that! I SPIT on your chantry! SPIT I SAY! SPIT!!!! (Lol)
To be honest, I don't like the religious views of the chantry, they remind me of the Christians FAR too much, preventing scientific discovery for neigh on 900 years and mounting Holy Crusades on anyone that doesn't believe the right thing.

But pretty much of our lore comes from Brother Genitivi or Mother Ailis so we have to take the things the Chantry teaches as the foundation for most of our discussions, if we like it or not.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 28 mars 2011 - 08:55 .

[Khayness]

Deztyn wrote...

Anders 2.0 is not even Anders.

It's like they said, "Hey write him however you like, just make sure he mentions Ser Pounce-a-Lot once or twice to remind people he's supposed to be Anders."

Yeah, the Blackmarsh banter with Varric and putting out milk are the only Anderish things about him.

And when I was complaining about Anders being destroyed pre-release, ofc I was just a mindless hater troll.

[Talladarr]

Lol, I'll pass Glor, all the hypocrites have driven me from churt for a very long time. I don't intend to go back, ever as of right now, bu that oppinion may change eventually.
However, t ostay on topic, I like the Dalish philosophy far more. Both Spirits and Demons are the same damned thing, each one embodying one thing to an extreme, none of which are to be trusted.

[Talladarr]

@Tobi
Yes, but when yo uread te Qunari codex entries, as well as numberous others, you'll notice that Brother Genitivi says that alot of the things the Chantry say don't make sense/ are outright wrong.

[TobiTobsen]

Talladarr wrote...

@Tobi
Yes, but when yo uread te Qunari codex entries, as well as numberous others, you'll notice that Brother Genitivi says that alot of the things the Chantry say don't make sense/ are outright wrong.

Sure thing. I like that guy. Wanted to brofist him als a fellow historian in DAO  Just wanted to say that we have to work with the lore we got and that most of it is written by the chantry, not that I blindly support everything they say.

[Talladarr]

Agreed. They were very off about the Qunari

[The Angry One]

I sort of have a forgiving view of the Chantry, if only because they do not as an institution exist to oppress women and blame us for tempting men with desire and being weak minded because a bunch of old men with rejection issues wrote that on a scroll thousands of years ago unlike some other organisations I could mention... but I digress...

[Talladarr]

Lol, Angry, I will give yo uthat point

[Deztyn]

Khayness,
I hate pre-release hype/hatred so I usually avoid anything to do with a new game weeks or months before if it's a part of a series and I already know I'm buying it. I didn't even know Anders was going to be in DA2. I thought maybe we'd see Nate since he was away in Kirkwall around the time the game started, but I wasn't expecting any old companions full time. I was so excited to see Anders. My favorite Awakenings companion-- and then he spoke and glowed.

What really kills me though, is I can understand his character when you look at DA2 in isolation. It's a tragedy, a man with good intentions, possessed by a spirit loses more and more of himself to Justice/vengeance. Good story. But the disconnect between the character in Awakenings and the beginning of DA2 is already so huge it's hard to see him as Anders.

Modifié par Deztyn, 28 mars 2011 - 09:23 .

[Lucky_Dawg]

The Angry One wrote...

Lucky_Dawg wrote...

so should we lock up and put under a microscope anyone with the I.Q. enough to learn how to make a nuclear bomb then ? because the issue i see is not the weapon.. it's the lack of education in learning to properly use that weapon which is the danger.

And what if that person could launch nuclear bombs out of  their hands, would you still support total unregulated freedom for them?

I never said anywhere in my post that they should be unregulated..
if you read what i wrote i said it's the lack of "educating the person weilding the "weapon"  that is the true danger.
I would venture to try and judge each one on an individual basis. they need guidance in what ever form it can be given.. I just don't agree with the statement that the education can only be given by one authority. ( in this case Chantry, Cirle ) 
I can not agree to summarily judge the actions of one against the whole.

just like Knight captain cullen said to Meredith when she asked would cullen risk being wrong , he said : (paraphrasing here ) 
 "yes. I would take that risk as I believe that's what being a templar is about. " 

Just as a mage is expected to learn all they can to accomplish control of the powers within thier grasp. A templar must be a master of the powers and laws he was trained to uphold.

you can't ever find a solution if you only answer one part of the problem.

The Mage itself is not the entire problem.... neither is the demon/spirit .
educating oneself to understand both will give you the power to at least help everyone's situation by knowing how to better regualate YOURSELF.

[joriandrake]

Talladarr wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

For anyone still arguing the difference, this, to me, proves that both Demons and Spirits are the same damned thing.

Listen to it at 8:08, it's Anders and Justice party banter

Listen to the banter >=[

I miss the original Anders, and the kitty

[only1sgop]

joriandrake wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

For anyone still arguing the difference, this, to me, proves that both Demons and Spirits are the same damned thing.

Listen to it at 8:08, it's Anders and Justice party banter

Listen to the banter >=[

I miss the original Anders, and the kitty

OMG this is so funny!

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Talladarr wrote...

I've always been Pro-mage in games like this. the Fereldin Templars weren't all that bad, but the Free Marches Templars are WAY too over-zealous.

And yet my Mage!Hawke gets more sympathy from Cullen then her own Temlpar Brother.<_<

As for Grace, yeah, I went both paths (talked Kerras 'down' and slaughtered him) and both times she makes it sound like I only gave them a 10 second head start. If it wasn't for Terri and her quests later, I'd turn in the lot of them. Or kill them all.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Turn out to be blood mages and abominations? You forget that the Veil is very thin in Kirkwall. Very thin. The demons are whispering to the mages constantly. They're abused, mistreated, mistrusted, and kept in a cell with no company BUT those demons. Then, when put at the tip of the sword, they decide you know what, maybe I have a better chance with the demon than I do getting run through with a sword.

And you JUDGE them for that?

Ever think that maybe the Templars are oppressing them BECAUSE the demons are whispering to the mages constantly?

Given what's revealed in the codex History of the Circle, I disagree. Imprisoning mages happened historically as a result of a nonviolent protest.

The Angry One wrote...

And again, if all it takes for mages to be super vunerable to demons is to be in an area where lots of people died hundreds of years ago then the Chantry is right, and the only real issue here is why nobody put 2 and 2 together and moved the Circle away from Kirkwal.

We encountered only a small portion of the actual mages in the Gallows Prison, so I see no reason to claim the Chantry is correct in brutally oppressing mages across the continent. The desire to be free from subjugation is what lead to Anders to destroy the Chantry, and the Circles to rise up and emancipate themselves from templar and Chantry control.

The Angry One wrote...

.... actually, if you're going to blame Kirkwall for this... what the hell is Decimus and Grace's excuse then? They're from Starkhaven.

The same excuse as Uldred - mages don't want to be forced into servitude. The result is mages like Uldred or Decimus who will cross any line to be free from Chantry and templar control.