192 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

How does this story lack focus? Especally compared to most other WRPGs and JRPGs, and most Rockstar titles.

In fact, it doesn't

Its actually much more focused than most grand game stories, including DAO.

How?

The narrative themes tie almost all the quests together. Far better than most WRPGs. The obvuious main theme is how people have tendencies to esclate or instigate conflicts and situations, no matter how good the intentions may be. The main story especially deals with this theme....Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and even Aveline's questlines deal with this theme. Most main plot elements do as well...from the mage/templar conflict to Sister Petrices attempts to provoke the Qunari, even Aveline's attempt to force the Arishok to hand over the criminals is an act of esclation...in a situation already at the breaking point. Even the Bone Pit mine quests connect to the main plot through theme. The workers keep digging, running into bigger and bigger monster nests, until they are killed by a High Dragon.

Then there are themes of family, death and loss, madness, and uncertainity. Uncertainty plays a big part in the Qunari quest line, as well as many of the closing conversations with characters, as well as the ending itself.

Also, when isn't a story allowed to change central goals?

If it does, that doesn't mean lack of focus, but change of focus. DAII does this, but the themes always had a central focus.

The only part that really has pacing issues is the first act may be in exposition too long, but still it does introduce all the players that play a role in the story later. But the first act is excusable because it lacks a sense of urgency, so it is reasonable to go around and do jobs for everybody as there is no pressure for time, but there is stil a goal, fund the expedition and get the maps to the Deep Roads. It is so unrealistic when a game allows you to do everything while the plot implies urgency. Its also notable in that if there is a sense of urgency in DAII, they force you to do the quest (outside of All That Remains, although you can't save her anyway).

Its that gamers and game reviews are so used to saving the world plots and stories that have race against the clock moments that they are not used to stories that have different pacing and play by different rules.

And WRPGs will alway shave "focus" problems, that is due to their more open nature...however a good well written WRPG will have most quests tie in with the central theme or secondary themes, and DAII does this splendidly.

[Myusha]

Agreed.

[Kroepoek]

The narrative themes tie almost all the quests together

Your lost garbage, serah.

[Myusha]

txgoldrush wrote...

Then there are themes of family, death and loss, madness, and uncertainity

Bwahahaha.

[txgoldrush]

Fix1o0 wrote...

The narrative themes tie almost all the quests together

Your lost garbage, serah.

key word "almost"

"secondary" quests definetely deal with the main themes, "side quests" may or may not.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 28 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[Ingu]

I think their problem is that it's too focused on something not all people can bring themselves to care about. That and the unrewarding ending makes it so that all the work seems to have amounted to nothing meaningful.

It's not that the story lacks 'focus' per se, it's that it lacks something for people to want to 'focus' on.

[Funker Shepard]

Nah, people subjectively don't like the game (whether through actually giving it a chance and not liking it, or IMO more commonly due to some EA/conspiracy theory/"it became popular so it sucks now" confirmation bias) and are trying to objectify their dislike through nebulous criticisms.

It happens quite a lot on the Internet, really.

[Malja]

Funker Shepard wrote...

Nah, people subjectively don't like the game (whether through actually giving it a chance and not liking it, or IMO more commonly due to some EA/conspiracy theory/"it became popular so it sucks now" confirmation bias) and are trying to objectify their dislike through nebulous criticisms.

It happens quite a lot on the Internet, really.

Indeed. More often than they'd like to admit, that's for sure.

To the OP: You make fair points. I've never quite understood the issue with focus some players have which may simply be because I've yet to read a compelling argument (and god are there plenty to be read, whether or not it was even called for). It seems the largest issue is as you said, way too used to saving the world to settle into this method of story telling. Disinterest that results from not having the focus explicitly stated can also tie into that.

[Lithuasil]

Being driven through various different questhubs who's inherent story has little connection to the maintheme, is what people have come to expect from bioware. DA2 doesn't do this, so it's obviously ruined forever, and the worst game ever made.

On a more serious note - while I'd agree on the statement at hand, you can't solely blame the people for not getting it, not with how sloppy execution gets towards the end.

[BanditGR]

Ingu wrote...

I think their problem is that it's too focused on something not all people can bring themselves to care about. That and the unrewarding ending makes it so that all the work seems to have amounted to nothing meaningful.

It's not that the story lacks 'focus' per se, it's that it lacks something for people to want to 'focus' on.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The focus of the story isn't the issue. We already knew it was going to be a personal story and most events would involve Hawke. The problem with the story is, it lacks...excitement, it lacks an ultimate goal, something to look forward to. I found myself not caring or not caring enough most of the time about what happens to the world and I really tried to relate to the characters and their situations. There is no real villain (at least no decent one and no sorry but Meredith is a poor excuse of a villain, the Arishok would be much better suited to that role, problem is act 2 should have been act 3 perhaps ). All in all, this political intrigue scenario and themes of death, loss etc, would probably be better suited for a movie instead of a video game unless you can tie them together in such a manner that would leave people stunned (the way Torment did years ago and DA2 is a far cry from that game, story depth wise).

The fact that most choices don't really have any significant impact (Origins suffered from this as well but at the very least there were 1-2 major decisions that could affect the rest of the game or its ending) and the amazingly horrible ending ?! only add insult to injury (they might as well had a window pop stating 'Buy DA3 to finish the story').

Modifié par BanditGR, 28 mars 2011 - 11:03 .

[Maria Caliban]

I think this is the first time I've seen story focus defined as simply having a theme. It's usually applied to plot and having a main character with clearly defined goals and obstacles.

And I question the strength of the theme in Act 1 and Act 3. Act 1 has a large number of quests that have nothing to do with zealotry or extremism. Act 3 makes Meredith's actions the product of magical interference, not human nature.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2011 - 11:07 .

[Miashi]

The "focus" of DA:2 is Anders, and Hawke is (supposedly) a catalyst. If the main story tied so well with its subquests, then Anders would have a more important role than just provide a map and ask you to distract the High Cleric - not that you have to do that though.

Hypothetically, if the "focus" of DA:2 is Hawke and Anders the catalyst, then the whole Scooby-doo ending with the Chantry exploding just doesn't cut it. You can't decide at the end of the game that the central character, the hero of Kirkwall, is a meaningless person in the grand scheme of things.

Really, take away Hawke for a minute and think about it. If there hadn't been any idol, if there hadn't been any Qunaris, Anders was still going to make the Chantry blow up and create this world-shattering event.

[Kreid]

The story itself is good, you can see conflicts escalating until the explode, but that's not the issue.
There's no defining goal during most of the game, the first act is totally horrendous in this regard, the mage-templar conflict is only addressed in a few quests and the rest is pretty inconsequential really, you don't meet Meredith or Orsino until pretty much the end of the game, which is like if you met Loghain for the first time at the Landsmeet in DA:O.
The story and underlying themes are good, but they are not well executed IMO, some parts of the game are simply boring due the lack of a defining goal and it's really hard to care for the main story when it just kind of simply explodes at the end with a not-so-good built up.
Bioware had a really nice idea in their hands and I give props to them for trying, but the execution wasn't good enough IMO.

[Foolsfolly]

So what you're saying is the main focus of the game is: escalation, family, death, loss, madness, and uncertainty? That's the focus? It's a shattershot about everything you can come up with. The plot's also about dragons, and elves, and mirrors; because you know those are in the game too.

No.

The plot is about the war between the Templars and Mages.

From the first act on you meet mages and templars who are good and bad. One of the first characters you meet is your sister, an apostate. The first non-companion you meet is a Templar who immediately is hostile to your sister (and you if you're a mage). This hatred is so powerful that Wesley's willing to make something of this despite being badly hurt and everyone on the run from the Blight. He only backs down because of Aveline.

There. Right at the beginning they show you the central conflict and remind the player that apostates and Templars do not get along.

When you arrive in Kirkwall the first thing you see are the Gallows, a slave prison converted into the Circle. You see the bronze statues of torment and slavery, the walls are decorated with the mournful existence of the Tevinter slaves. This is where slaves were brought in and housed, and this is where the Mages of Kirkwall are stuck in.

It doesn't take long at all to come across the mage/templar problem in the game, one early example being with the half-elf mage who's a dreamer on the run from the Templars. You have Grace and her mages who've escaped from the Circle in Starkhaven and there's the fact that your sister constantly mentions how being a mage is a burden. If you're brother is alive instead he comments constantly on mages too, just in a more petty way.

There's the fact that Anders' location and abilities are a secret, one that people are willing to die for. People speak in hushed tones about mages constantly, the half-elf's father being vague and evasive until you show him you're a friend of mages, for example.

Then there's the fact that of your companions you have the Wife of a Templar, a Circle Mage Warden Abomination, a Blood Mage First, a slave to Tevinter Mages, and a Prince who's devoted to the Chantry. All these characters have direct ties to the mage question and will all have sides of the argument that they agree with.

Varric is neutral to everyone. Dog's not a true companion. And Isabela cares only for herself and is after her book.

And then there's the fact that the entire third act solely revolves around this issue. The fact that the finale rests with the first battle of the revolution.

Sorry, OP. You can pull all the side quest elements you want out and say the story's about those things, but it's really about the Mages/Templars. Even Cassandra comes to Varric to find out what role Hawke had in the revolution, not about the family (which is dusted off completely mid-way through act 2) or about characters escalating things (which isn't a theme that's the definition of plot). It's about the mage/templar war.

Now the game's pace is such that it moves at the speed of frozen sap down a tree trunk. It's fineish in the first act since that's showing you the world and the fears and prejudices of the that world. Fine.

But we need to meet the major players of this plot. We need to meet Meredith and Orisino early on so we can develop feelings for these characters and their plights. This time can now be spent evolving the characters as the timeline moves closer and closer to that war.

This doesn't happen. We barely meet the groups involved. We never step foot in the Circle despite it and its treatment of the Mages being central to the plot.

Despite showing us the world and its connections, Act 1 forwards nothing to the plot. It's just a few mages and Templar who show up multiple times throughout the game. The entire Act 2 finale also shows the tension between the Knight-Commander and First Enchanter when they only stop fighting Qunari to fight among themselves over who should be in charge.

Qunari also have a unique view point of how to treat mages, they treat them like caged animals because of their danger. That's a key thing to how Meredith treats all mages as blood mages until proven otherwise, because of the danger. The qunari and Templar place is similar in this vein.

But the pacing is all wrong. You grab an Idol for no reason other than a nice out for Meredith being nuts later. You deliver pants and necklaces to nameless NPCs for 50 silver. You kill minor lordlings for the Red Irons.

There are many many quests that allude and underscore the main plot, but the actual main quest is absent. We don't meet the main players early enough, they don't change, we don't get to know them, we don't get to see both sides of the argument from their perspectives (We're always an outsider to everything), and in the end it doesn't even matter since a completely useless Idol made Meredith do it and insanity and demons made the mages do it.

See how that's a disconnect from the plot? See how unfocused the game is on that plot. It goes out of its way to show you the problem, but the pacing doesn't allow for any meaningful growth from those characters. And then without knowing the situation first hand or knowing the players to that situation you're forced to pick one....and kill both because of outside influences that have nothing to do with the plot.

Had the pacing been better, had we met Meredith and Orsino early on, and had an idol/demon not been involved then we'd have a better story. Then the story would be about humans doing what they believe: Meredith believing the majority has the right to be safe and Orsino believing mages have the right to be treated as innocent until proven corrupt.

Then the choice to pick would be meaningful. Then there'd be a point to both sides of the argument.

But as is, it's a poorly paced uneven rushed game. Where the finale leaves a sour spot in your mind because all the actions of these characters is stripped away because of outside influences. That and Hawke never has a goal to work forward to for this plot, unless you say Bethany or yourself. But there's no hard goal for this plot. Characters act, and Hawke reacts. That makes Hawke boring because he's a reactive hero instead of a proactive hero. Maybe if Hawke had a goal in this whole thing and maybe did something to prevent or cause the war that would help.

Nice try, OP. But the players aren't the problem with this plot.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 28 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[allanon10101a]

I think the story in DA2 has been refined somewhat from DA:O. Rather than letting you write your own story (as in Origins), it tells the story, and you just give it some further definition. However, I did feel that this resulted in the game lacking the epic feeling of Origins. Rather than almost anything being possible, you were clearly being steered towards one of 2 unavoidable results, and you were simply determining how this was received by people. Whilst I can see this may well have been necessary for the series to progress in the direction the developers wanted, I couldn't help but feel they were selling the game short to achieve it.

I would dearly love to see the return of the epic scale of the story in 3, even if it meant sacrificing some of the detail from it in the process. As for where the series is headed, iirc in the final sequence, there is one line that lets us know where the developers are apparently taking this: "Gone, just like the Warden" "That is no coincidence". I think, whatever storyline the developers have in mind for #3, we will see the return of both our heroes in some fashion, or possibly even the addition of a third member to their number. Could the series so far be nothing more than the simple development process of a party for a challenge of epic proportions down the line? If so, that may well explain the shift away from the broad-scale adventure and narrowing the focus. In that event, I cannot wait to see the result.

[Ingu]

The three acts are really three arcs. The first act is mostly about collecting the gold to go into the deep roads, we don't actually see much mage injustice or qunari influence in that stage at all. Similarly in the second act the qunari are -suddenly- this big thing we have to deal with, and we don't really get the reason. Third act, same with mages/templars, except this time around we've had Anders whining in our year for the whole game and Fenris brooding over the exact same thing.

The game doesn't so much as -show- us what we are supposed to care about as -tell- us. Each act is so short and so self-contained it doesn't allow much to actually 'develop' at all. This is just like DA:O in a way, but the freedom of what to tackle first is taken away, and we're forced on a linear path. That, and Hawke is more like a bystander dragged into the fray for little more reason than being in the right place at the right time... all the time. You don't feel any actual commitment to what you're doing.

So I'm going to turn around and say yes, the story does lack focus. It's like each conflict in DA:O dalish/werewolf, mage/templar, harrowmont/bhelen condensed into one location, your character never left their origin, and the whole thing with the blight and stuff removed. That's all it is.

So in the light of missing an overarching goal, it does lack a focus which ties all ten years together. Each act stands well on its own, but all ten years? Not so much.

Modifié par Ingu, 28 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[Foolsfolly]

Also, OP, I think you're confusing themes and plot. A story can have multiple themes but can only have one main plot. The plot of DA2 is scattered among side quests, poorly paced, and does not directly influence Hawke/Player. Too much of the game feels like we're wandering around just clicking on NPCs with a marker over their heads instead of setting out to do something.

That's the tl;dr version of the problem.

[Curlain]

I can't really agree the story does have focus. I understand that the story being told is a personal character based story focusing of Hawke and their experiences over around 7 years after fleeing the Blight to Kirkwall, during which they being entangled in one of the major geo-political events in Thedas.

All a great concept, but it fails it's potential in a number of ways for me, and this is particularly in terms of this being an RP story. I get that Act 1 is about Hawke randomly getting involved in various key issues in Kirkwall, which then surprises Cassandra who thought they had to have a reason and purpose behind them (the Deep Roads, involvement with Qunari, and Chantry, Circle and Templars etc), again a great concept. However, during Act 1 it doesn't provide the Hawke character with any compelling reason to do any of these main story points, Hawke is urged to go to the Deep Roads (even with the darkspawn not yet returned, one of the most dangerous places in all Thedas) on some vague possibility that you might find something. Just that there has to be great treasure because you'll be going to an old dwarven thaig? You can even have Hawke raise that very question with Dougal Gavorn as to why he would want to invest in the Expedition as you may come up with nothing, to which he basically answers, 'well you seem to think there's something in it, so there must be'.

That just left me scratching my head a little, there is no certainly of any return of this venture for Hawke and family, extreme risk involved, and to top it off they have to get 50 sovereigns to become partners in it to go (admittedly once Dougal invests you keep that money, but Hawke doesn't know that at the time), and I was left think if you get that kind of money why would Hawke want to invest in a dodgy sounding venture, rather then just using that money to invest in the Amell estate. Or even better to decide to use the money to leave Templar HQ and take themselves and family somewhere far away from Templar eyes, particularly now the Blight is over. The whole quest just lacked in providing Hawke with any real compelling reason to do it in Act 1, apart from the game telling you that Hawke had to.

The same is true of the other quests, why would Hawke want to get involved with a bunch of dangerous Qunari and through that attract allot of unwanted attention by getting involved in a major political situation, when one of the major objectives of the Hawke family at that time is to stay under the radar. You can even attempt to refuse to do the quests, but the game will still tell you do do the Blackpower Promise and Sheparding Wolves quests. Now I know from a metagaming perspective why you need to do them, but there is little RP reason to do them in Act 1, particularly as they could have had Sister Petrice blackmail Hawke or similar into doing the quest over either Hawke or Bethany's apostate status (or an even better hook that I can't think of). I'm afraid Act 1 largely fell short for me in these RP areas.

Act 2 was fine, as long as you got yourself invested in the quests in Act 1, I found you had definite motivation and purpose for that section, and the story therefore has definite focus. I do think though they could have keep the sibling at your side, I know their removal provides a dramatic moment in the end of Act 1, but I think the overall value of keeping them with you for the continued sibling dynamic would have been provided a more interesting experience, particularly with Leandra's death.

Act 3 had allot of potential, political manoeuvring, secret cabal of Templar-Mage that are working together to undermine Meredith, but it's all just swept away with Anders's terrorist attack leading to a contrived ending where none of that matters anymore, just choose Mage or Templars (and even that is largely irrelevant since it plays out the same effectively).

And finally I felt that Meredith and Orsino were missed opportunities, I felt they both should have been involved in the game from Act 1, and built up. I was hoping in both we would get characters similar to Loghain for example, providing you with thought-provoking characters who have complicated rationales for their actions, the kind that stir debate latter on the forums (and you only have to look at the Loghain threads in the Origins forums to see those debates). But thanks to the idol instead of a Templar Knight-Commander providing thought-provoking challenges to pure mage freedom and showing reasons why many in Thedas see the Templars and their actions as necessary we get largely a cardboard-cutout insane James Bond villain type, in fact just like the type of evil mage/dark blackguard type villain you get in many 'save the world' type games. And Orsinio isn't much better, as he fills the role of the apparently quiet rational book-learned man on the surface who turns out to be a secret crazy/devil worshipper etc underneath with his revelation of his involvement with the serial killer mage Quentin and then transforming into a Harvester (even when you side with him, and are winning against the Templars).

TL;DR - summary -
All in all, DA2 was a game with a great concept, but it lacked all of RP motivation and reasoning through much of the game, and to many opportunities were left unfulfilled, with the main potential antagonists left without much depth imo.

[Foolsfolly]

Well said, Curlain.

[Danjaru]

It does lack focus. In each arc you're doing several irrelevant side quests just to be able to do those important main quests that take less than half the time the side quests did.

For example Act 1, it's built from side quests, literally. It feels like questing to get that Epic Mount you want in an MMORPG. It doesn't have a focus, and the reason you're grinding for money? To get more money in the main quest of course!

Act 2 was the best act. Here many of the quests actually touch upon the main quest. But still suffers from alot of the quests just being there for moneys sake. This act could've had alot more build up imo, but was good nontheless.

Act 3 had the most focus, the Templar vs Mage thing was in your face throughout. But you still weren't striving for something. You were simply just waiting for something to happen so you could act. And oh it happened alright.

In the end, except the Lyrium Idol from act 1 to 3.. There was no focus in the overall plot. There were 3 completely seperate instances of story that your character happened to be a part of.

[Tripedius]

The story seems to have focus, but it's a trick cause it doesn't. The story has about as much focus as Justin Bieber has musical talent. One other thing the have incomen is that it works well for the masses, the swallow it done whole with a smile.
However the story is full of plot holes, gigantic leaps and deus ex machinas. Meredith with the idol? How did you see that one coming? Why did she use it in the first place, I thought she was against all magic AND very aware how it could consume people? Why was Orsino only introduced in the last chapter? The background for the Arishok was also the bare minimum (but beter than Orsino). How come Anders and Justice are even there? (thought the gap between DA:O and the end of Awakenings was bigger than a year excluding traveling). Etc. But since the story was about as deep as your average spiderman comic I can see people liking it, esp. since it seemed to deal with big issues (mother is gone. End of conversation).

[Kered10]

I look at DA2 as being like book 2 in a trilogy, it's not as focused the first book but what is important is the fact that it sets out the groundwork for the next book in the series with possible plotlines hinted at, I can't wait to see how Leliana & Cassandra's task pans out

[Foolsfolly]

That's not the worst of it, Tripedius. The whole story is about the Mage/Templar thing then having so many blood mages, demons, and abominations with the mages and Meredith crazed by an idol completely strips meaning from the plot.

Had it just been done a little better than the argument over oppressing a minority for the safety of the majority or promoting a minority while risking innocent lives would have been a great gray moral choice. You'd still have the unstoppable war, but the reason behind it would be based in how you roleplay your character.

And there'd be none of that Harvester nonsense that comes out of nowhere or Meredith going crazy because of a tiki idol. Which would make the ending feel better.

[Miashi]

The idol was unnecessary to explain Meredith's zealotry. I mean, anymore with some sense of awareness could see that Kirkwall was plagued with blood magic and evil apostates. It would put anyone on the edge.

The quest for the idol feels more of an excuse to prolong the story rather than enhance it.

Modifié par Miashi, 28 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[Halo Quea]

HA! This is like Steve Jobs telling everybody that they're just not using the iPad correctly.

So it's our fault that we just didn't play the game right I guess. lol

Modifié par Halo Quea, 28 mars 2011 - 01:15 .