192 réponses à ce sujet

[Jester12]

The only thing with the idol is. Bartrand says Meredith "won't feed it like i do." Maybe this means nothing but i like to think that it will be in the 3rd dragon age. Maybe they used this for an intro to the idol in the Dragon Age universe.

[dgcatanisiri]

So many people harp on things like how Hawke 'has no choice,' that things happen irregardless of him, not because of him. In a sense, I agree, but I like that aspect, because of what I see the game as focusing on - the man behind the myth.

That's why the game has the framing story as opposed to happening straight through. We as a culture are so used to the idea that when we play a game, we are cast as the one who knowingly changes everything. Revan, the Spirit Monk, Commander Shepard, the Warden... These are all people who are the only ones who could or can change things and save the day. We normally play the people who act. But Hawke is a character who reacts - much like a real person would. Varric is telling Cassandra the story of the man who was Champion, not the story of the Champion. Unlike other games, we're not playing some uber-hero. We're playing a man who is in the wrong places at the right times.

You even see that in Cassandra's scenes - 'How could the Champion not know what was down there?' 'The Champion tried to keep the peace?' She questions Varric making Hawke out as a normal person trying to keep things together because the way the Champion has been described to her is a larger than life figure who knows the world is watching his every move. Instead, Hawke was a human being. That's it. Not some great mythical figure, but a man (or woman), trying to make the best of the hand they're dealt.

To me, that's what makes it fun. Hawke isn't a Superman or Batman or Spiderman or whatever hero you pick. He's an everyday hero, the guy who, when asked why he did his heroic deeds, responds 'I did what anyone else would do' or 'I was just doing my job.'

The game is really more of a deconstruction of what we believe it is to be a hero, as opposed to a traditional story of a hero.

[Miashi]

I don't really have a problem with an ordinary guy doing ordinary things with extraordinary people, I think the point of this post is that what this ordinary person does is at best meaningless to what happens in the plot.

Let's imagine if Hawke's purpose influenced Anders on what he does in Chapter 3;
It would've been good that your actions (being kind to mages for example) convinces Anders that mages deserve a better place because they're misunderstood. Then Anders could've blown up the chantry and say : I did it because you showed me that mages deserve a place in the world and that's how I'm affirming it.

Or on the opposite, a rival Anders could've seen what bad you do to mages and blow up the chantry telling you: Here's my message to douchebags like you that kill mages, I say it ends here!...

But no... instead we have a trip in the deep roads to get an item that turns a crazy lunatic into a crazier lunatic, we punch an Arishock in the face just cause he's there. What in these 2 things that Hawke has done influenced Anders in any way? No. Because no matter what you do in chapter 1 and 2, Anders will blow up the chantry for the same reason.

If things are meant to happen, at least show a bit of goodwill and make us feel like our actions still influenced the outcome (even though they do not).

You could've completely removed Hawke from the picture, and things would've still happened. I mean, I don't mind playing a game with an average Joe being an average Joe, but really, if Hawke is going to be a bystander, why just not remove the whole dialogue wheel and make the game a movie or a book? To me it just felt like a waste of time.

Modifié par Miashi, 28 mars 2011 - 04:50 .

[Patriciachr34]

allanon10101a wrote...

I think people are looking at this the wrong way. DA2 is not an RPG in the same sense DA:O was. DA:O, you're writing your destiny for a story that hasn't been told yet. DA2 is the retelling of the rise of Hawke to become the Champion of Kirkwall from Hawke's perspective. Their storyline has been laid out to show events as he saw them. You complain there was very little depth gone into with the first Act, and then there was no real choice involved in the final act. But that is how a retelling would indeed go. You aren't really making decisions, you are simply discovering how the decisions made influence others, and what the character did along the way, as the story progresses to reach a specific end. I agree, it is not the best way to do an RPG game, but it is true to what they set out to achieve, and there is undoubtedly a reason they did it that way

Act 1: he's grinding for cash in the hopes of investing in an expedition that he hopes will restore his family's lost fortunes. All the quests are essentially aimed at that - gaining loot - and introducing the characters that will make up the party and major plot-lines later on. No real depth to it, just as it would have been from Hawk's point of view. They were random encounters whilst he was working to another goal. The idol was a random find that would prove to be important later, but for now it simply demonstrates that it is capable of making people act irrationally and against their nature.

Act 2: Idol found, family fortunes restored. Now begins the Qunari and the Mage/Templar story-lines. Qunari are naffed off because they're stuck in Kirkwall whilst they hunt for something, and Kirkwall doesn't live up to their expectations. Mages are being overly oppressed by the Knight Commander who has taken her normal oppressive outlook and is pushing it to the extreme due to the influence of the idol. Mages start to turn to Blood Magic for the power to escape the oppression (note: vast majority of blood mages in Kirkwall start to appear after idol found, not before. Maybe things are getting worse? Guess why). Goes into a little more depth this time around, as the character is more involved in the events as an established local, rather than being an outsider who is just trying to scrape up enough cash for something. He is starting to get involved in the realities of being a major player in his new home.

Act 3: He came, he saw, he conquered. He's the big cheese now, and with that comes the responsibility. In the major political conflict going on atm, both sides turn to him in the hope of attaining his influence as a result. However, that idol is still there influencing Merideth, and that continues to pressure the mages to act irresponsibly. The mage Anders, influenced by the perverted spirit Vengence, sees the injustice of Meredith's actions and decides that enough is enough. Decides to remove compromise as an option in order to prevent the situation from possibly occurring again. This works, as Meredith is officially a loon by now thanks to the idol. She overreacts and instead of punishing the guilty party (an apostate, not even part of the circle. I mean, come on, that's gotta be an overreaction) decides to punish the innocents, acting far beyond the bounds of her position. Orsino eventually respond to this in desperation, and resorts to blood magic himself, using the research of the mage who killed Hawke's mother (who was, pretty obviously, a master of the craft). Blah de blah, battle, Orsino flips out (hey, we all have our breaking points, not like he didn't have good cause), then the cause for Meredith's insanity is finally revealed. Battle again, game over.

The point is, each act has clearly defined perspective. It goes into as much detail as would be likely to be experienced from Hawke's point of view at the time, and no more. Life isn't one huge quest, it's a lot of little ones, and each one has a story attached to it, but eventually, we only have one present, and that is what the game was intended to bring you to. It was not a single quest like DA:O was. There was never any single enemy that had to be defeated at all costs. It was the retelling of a life over the course of 8 years, and some of the things that affected it. DA2 was an attempt at something a little different, and you are all judging it based on the normal RPG format. Perhaps it's time to step back and look at it from a different angle, and try and see it for what it really is?

This.

[Sononabestia]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

So many people harp on things like how Hawke 'has no choice,' that things happen irregardless of him, not because of him. In a sense, I agree, but I like that aspect, because of what I see the game as focusing on - the man behind the myth.

That's why the game has the framing story as opposed to happening straight through. We as a culture are so used to the idea that when we play a game, we are cast as the one who knowingly changes everything. Revan, the Spirit Monk, Commander Shepard, the Warden... These are all people who are the only ones who could or can change things and save the day. We normally play the people who act. But Hawke is a character who reacts - much like a real person would. Varric is telling Cassandra the story of the man who was Champion, not the story of the Champion. Unlike other games, we're not playing some uber-hero. We're playing a man who is in the wrong places at the right times.

You even see that in Cassandra's scenes - 'How could the Champion not know what was down there?' 'The Champion tried to keep the peace?' She questions Varric making Hawke out as a normal person trying to keep things together because the way the Champion has been described to her is a larger than life figure who knows the world is watching his every move. Instead, Hawke was a human being. That's it. Not some great mythical figure, but a man (or woman), trying to make the best of the hand they're dealt.

To me, that's what makes it fun. Hawke isn't a Superman or Batman or Spiderman or whatever hero you pick. He's an everyday hero, the guy who, when asked why he did his heroic deeds, responds 'I did what anyone else would do' or 'I was just doing my job.'

The game is really more of a deconstruction of what we believe it is to be a hero, as opposed to a traditional story of a hero.

That's a nice point of view, but this is an RPG. You are meant NOT to be a random guy on an RPG. If the story pivots around you, your actions should actually change the story (and not just in a minor way, but in a major way). It should be different if you helped someone, killed that someone or turned the head, don't you think?

[dgcatanisiri]

Sononabestia wrote...
That's a nice point of view, but this is an RPG. You are meant NOT to be a random guy on an RPG. If the story pivots around you, your actions should actually change the story (and not just in a minor way, but in a major way). It should be different if you helped someone, killed that someone or turned the head, don't you think?

Says who? Role Playing Game. What says that role has to be the uber-hero? Precedent? Tradition? So you want all RPGs to follow the same formula and always end the same way? You want no one to try and do something different with the genre? Stagnation will kill a genre far more easily than taking a chance and trying something unexpected.

[Itkovian]

The story is about Hawke... about his rise from destitute Fereldan refugee, to nobility, to champion, to central character in the start of a world-changing conflict.

That's the one central constant throughout the game. DA2 is the story of his life after arising out of obscurity, that's what Varric is telling. There does not NEED to be a central plot beyond that. Even the Mage/Templar conflict only becomes the focus in Act 3, and there really is nothing wrong with that.

DA2 is a different kind of story. It's not about a grave threat arising in the land, it's not about the evil machinations of an enemy nation that must be defeated. It's about Hawke, his life, and what led him to do what he eventually did. And like most persons, Hawke's life included many topics and events. And that's what we play in DA2.

In short, DA2's story is not Lord of the Rings. It's Barry Lyndon. Does that make it worse? I say it does not.

Itkovian

[errant_knight]

What it lacks isn't focus, it's pacing. Act one waffles all over the place. Act two builds nicely, but then stops and we start over again, which feels odd and anticlimactic. Act three builds again, but feels limited, without choice, and more than a little nonsensical. And things are so bleak at that point, what I really wanted to do was take King Alistair up on his commission and get the hell out of there.

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

What it lacks isn't focus, it's pacing. Act one waffles all over the place. Act two builds nicely, but then stops and we start over again, which feels odd and anticlimactic. Act three builds again, but feels limited, without choice, and more than a little nonsensical. And things are so bleak at that point, what I really wanted to do was take King Alistair up on his commission and get the hell out of there.

Couldn't disagree more.  Pacing is one of the things I think they absolutely got right, and that's difficult to do when player choice is involved and quests can come in different order, and you have to both weave in background and foundation for future plotting.  Act one you are establishing yourself in Kirkwall and finding allies.  It doesn't need to have a nerve pulse like the other two.  How does act 2 start over again??  You become the champion.  That's pretty significant.  Act 3 throws you into the mage-templar conflict that had been already building in the background the whole game.  It feels short, but maybe it would detract from the story if you had a lot of filler.  By act three, you are, as Flemeth predicted, being hurtled into an abyss, and I'll agree that it's bleak, but I also found it exciting.

[kelvarnsen]

Foolsfolly wrote...

So what you're saying is the main focus of the game is: escalation, family, death, loss, madness, and uncertainty? That's the focus? It's a shattershot about everything you can come up with. The plot's also about dragons, and elves, and mirrors; because you know those are in the game too.

No.

The plot is about the war between the Templars and Mages.

From the first act on you meet mages and templars who are good and bad. One of the first characters you meet is your sister, an apostate. The first non-companion you meet is a Templar who immediately is hostile to your sister (and you if you're a mage). This hatred is so powerful that Wesley's willing to make something of this despite being badly hurt and everyone on the run from the Blight. He only backs down because of Aveline.

There. Right at the beginning they show you the central conflict and remind the player that apostates and Templars do not get along.

When you arrive in Kirkwall the first thing you see are the Gallows, a slave prison converted into the Circle. You see the bronze statues of torment and slavery, the walls are decorated with the mournful existence of the Tevinter slaves. This is where slaves were brought in and housed, and this is where the Mages of Kirkwall are stuck in.

It doesn't take long at all to come across the mage/templar problem in the game, one early example being with the half-elf mage who's a dreamer on the run from the Templars. You have Grace and her mages who've escaped from the Circle in Starkhaven and there's the fact that your sister constantly mentions how being a mage is a burden. If you're brother is alive instead he comments constantly on mages too, just in a more petty way.

There's the fact that Anders' location and abilities are a secret, one that people are willing to die for. People speak in hushed tones about mages constantly, the half-elf's father being vague and evasive until you show him you're a friend of mages, for example.

Then there's the fact that of your companions you have the Wife of a Templar, a Circle Mage Warden Abomination, a Blood Mage First, a slave to Tevinter Mages, and a Prince who's devoted to the Chantry. All these characters have direct ties to the mage question and will all have sides of the argument that they agree with.

Varric is neutral to everyone. Dog's not a true companion. And Isabela cares only for herself and is after her book.

And then there's the fact that the entire third act solely revolves around this issue. The fact that the finale rests with the first battle of the revolution.

Sorry, OP. You can pull all the side quest elements you want out and say the story's about those things, but it's really about the Mages/Templars. Even Cassandra comes to Varric to find out what role Hawke had in the revolution, not about the family (which is dusted off completely mid-way through act 2) or about characters escalating things (which isn't a theme that's the definition of plot). It's about the mage/templar war.

Now the game's pace is such that it moves at the speed of frozen sap down a tree trunk. It's fineish in the first act since that's showing you the world and the fears and prejudices of the that world. Fine.

But we need to meet the major players of this plot. We need to meet Meredith and Orisino early on so we can develop feelings for these characters and their plights. This time can now be spent evolving the characters as the timeline moves closer and closer to that war.

This doesn't happen. We barely meet the groups involved. We never step foot in the Circle despite it and its treatment of the Mages being central to the plot.

Despite showing us the world and its connections, Act 1 forwards nothing to the plot. It's just a few mages and Templar who show up multiple times throughout the game. The entire Act 2 finale also shows the tension between the Knight-Commander and First Enchanter when they only stop fighting Qunari to fight among themselves over who should be in charge.

Qunari also have a unique view point of how to treat mages, they treat them like caged animals because of their danger. That's a key thing to how Meredith treats all mages as blood mages until proven otherwise, because of the danger. The qunari and Templar place is similar in this vein.

But the pacing is all wrong. You grab an Idol for no reason other than a nice out for Meredith being nuts later. You deliver pants and necklaces to nameless NPCs for 50 silver. You kill minor lordlings for the Red Irons.

There are many many quests that allude and underscore the main plot, but the actual main quest is absent. We don't meet the main players early enough, they don't change, we don't get to know them, we don't get to see both sides of the argument from their perspectives (We're always an outsider to everything), and in the end it doesn't even matter since a completely useless Idol made Meredith do it and insanity and demons made the mages do it.

See how that's a disconnect from the plot? See how unfocused the game is on that plot. It goes out of its way to show you the problem, but the pacing doesn't allow for any meaningful growth from those characters. And then without knowing the situation first hand or knowing the players to that situation you're forced to pick one....and kill both because of outside influences that have nothing to do with the plot.

Had the pacing been better, had we met Meredith and Orsino early on, and had an idol/demon not been involved then we'd have a better story. Then the story would be about humans doing what they believe: Meredith believing the majority has the right to be safe and Orsino believing mages have the right to be treated as innocent until proven corrupt.

Then the choice to pick would be meaningful. Then there'd be a point to both sides of the argument.

But as is, it's a poorly paced uneven rushed game. Where the finale leaves a sour spot in your mind because all the actions of these characters is stripped away because of outside influences. That and Hawke never has a goal to work forward to for this plot, unless you say Bethany or yourself. But there's no hard goal for this plot. Characters act, and Hawke reacts. That makes Hawke boring because he's a reactive hero instead of a proactive hero. Maybe if Hawke had a goal in this whole thing and maybe did something to prevent or cause the war that would help.

Nice try, OP. But the players aren't the problem with this plot.

spot on. 

[txgoldrush]

NeoGuardian86 wrote...

Txgoldrush


hey same name from Gamespot eh?

This is Saudifury if you remember me from the same threads on Gamespot.

yeah, it is

I am getting sick of Gamespot....you get modded for breathing over there.

[txgoldrush]

A lack of "focus" is when you do have a clear goal, but the plot meanders and goes off on a tangent for too long. Dragon Age Origins is extremely guilty of doing this. Mass Effect 2 WOULD be guilty but your characters and their fates are the plot as the game deals with loyalty and leadership.

Most JRPGs commit this sin. For example Final Fantasy VII, the most grossly overrated RPG in history, has you chasing Sephiroth throughout the game, but instead of chasing him, your doing story events that are unrelated to the main plot too many times. The tight pacing FFVII had in Midgar then is lost. The story is way too long and full of filler. In fact, the story would have been better if 1/3 of the content was cut out (and they fix the plot hole called Jenova).

Lack of focus is just as likely, or even more likely, to occur when there is a clear goal than a story without a clear goal (with changing goals).

[Kinaori]

Miashi - yes! They could keep their plot and I still wouldn't have felt like window dressing. I like it!

[Malanek]

The focus in act 1 is to become rich. It's a treasure hunt, conflict between mages and templars is introduced but kept to the background. Act 2 is about the Qunari and resolving that issue. Act 3 is about the Mages and Templars and it has ties to the first two acts. There were some problems with execution but I liked the way the story was told especially for the originality and the feel of realness.

[bleetman]

I don't expect everyone to agree, but the disconnection between Hawke's actions and What Goes On is ultimately made the story come off as a bit weak for me. Origins had, for the most part, a generic overall story where you save the day from some ancient evil or other, and everything is rosey. But coming away from a scenario, I had a much stronger feeling of my actions actually having a consequence, even if that feeling was mostly puppet-show thin.

Or, to put it another way: what choice of dwarven king I support had no particular consequence outside of different epilogue slides, yet I left Orzammar with a tangible sense of "yep, things have changed from when I went in there".

Dragon Age 2 had none of that.

[Lithuasil]

bleetman wrote...

Or, to put it another way: what choice of dwarven king I support had no particular consequence outside of different epilogue slides, yet I left Orzammar with a tangible sense of "yep, things have changed from when I went in there".

Dragon Age 2 had none of that.

It might be personal taste, or rely on your willingness to become absorbed, but I had some pretty good "oh ****, did he just blow up the chantry with the stuff I gave him" to "oh ****, I went after that killer twice, didn't get him, and now he has mother" moments.

Sure, that feeling is diminished once you play through the game four times, but that's metagaming

[3SG Sage]

For me the feel of a lack of focus revolves around lack of a serious goal for my Hawke beyond surviving. If I'm to play a guy buffeted by forces of history I can't change then fine, but at least give me some smaller part of the grand scheme that I can affect.

My hawk could have seen that Kirkwall was probably going to fall into chaos and had the main focus of secring a place for my family. A ship with Isabel, buying a keep out in the countryside, deal with the thieves guild for a secret passge out of the city, whatever. Stockpiling money would make sense as we would need it. The city can go to hell in a Mage/Templar war but at least I get the personal satisfaction of saving my family.

Or secure an heirloom/document/whatever that proves my family position in either nation. Maybe my goal is to help mellow templars or quiet mages escape from Kirkwall when the brown stuff hits the rotary osalator.

Heck, make the templar mage scism swappable so whichever side I pick proves to be slightly "better" than the other so I least I feel somewhat justified in slaughter the opposing side.

My character's goal doesn't have to be to save the world. I just want one that is better defined than gaining all the XP and items I can so I can survive a war then walk away into the sunset.

Modifié par 3SG Sage, 28 mars 2011 - 07:54 .

[Malanek]

bleetman wrote...

I don't expect everyone to agree, but the disconnection between Hawke's actions and What Goes On is ultimately made the story come off as a bit weak for me. Origins had, for the most part, a generic overall story where you save the day from some ancient evil or other, and everything is rosey. But coming away from a scenario, I had a much stronger feeling of my actions actually having a consequence, even if that feeling was mostly puppet-show thin.

Or, to put it another way: what choice of dwarven king I support had no particular consequence outside of different epilogue slides, yet I left Orzammar with a tangible sense of "yep, things have changed from when I went in there".

Dragon Age 2 had none of that.

I agree with this but I just didn't mind. You are caught up in an unrelenting tide of events. There isn't just some evil dragon you can defeat and set everything right. You are dealing with hundreds of years of history and prejudice and there was not an "ending" to that. The story was bleak, I would've liked to achieve a little more but I am glad you were not able to solve the worlds, or even Kirwalls, problems.

[kelvarnsen]

Malanek999 wrote...

The focus in act 1 is to become rich. It's a treasure hunt, conflict between mages and templars is introduced but kept to the background. Act 2 is about the Qunari and resolving that issue. Act 3 is about the Mages and Templars and it has ties to the first two acts. There were some problems with execution but I liked the way the story was told especially for the originality and the feel of realness.

what realness? seeing orsino all of a sudden turn into some weird lump creature or that meredith all of a sudden has that idol you, for some random reason, found in act1? the end made no sense.

[Malanek]

kelvarnsen wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

The focus in act 1 is to become rich. It's a treasure hunt, conflict between mages and templars is introduced but kept to the background. Act 2 is about the Qunari and resolving that issue. Act 3 is about the Mages and Templars and it has ties to the first two acts. There were some problems with execution but I liked the way the story was told especially for the originality and the feel of realness.

what realness? seeing orsino all of a sudden turn into some weird lump creature or that meredith all of a sudden has that idol you, for some random reason, found in act1? the end made no sense.

I actually agree with your two examples to some extent, they were not well executed. However the overall story felt much much more real to me than any other computer game story I have experienced recently. It all came down to the differening emotions and motivations that led the characters to do what they did and made events quite believable.

[Foolsfolly]

To allanon10101a on Page 2.

I think people are looking at this the wrong way. DA2 is not an RPG in the same sense DA:O was. DA:O, you're writing your destiny for a story that hasn't been told yet. DA2 is the retelling of the rise of Hawke to become the Champion of Kirkwall from Hawke's perspective. Their storyline has been laid out to show events as he saw them.

But you still need a strong plot and motivation to forward that plot. Act 1 has you wander around collecting gold for a dangerous mission that may or may not pay off. A mission that may kill you and everyone involved. Why doesn't Hawke just do all those side quests, save up the money, and move himself and his sister out of Kirkwall and away from all those Templars? Exactly, what is so important about going on a possibly suicidal mission into the Deep Roads?

The game says so. Hawke has no reason to do that, no more than he does saving up that money and buying a store and earning a living for his family. Or buying passage back to their home country and safety for Bethany. Or anything else you could do for the fortune of 50 gold.

It's disingenuous to say that people don't get it. To just say this is a personal story and people don't get it doesn't answer the fact that there's no motivation for 80% of the game. Why does Hawke do these side quests, why go on a mission where they have no clue what they're after in the Deep Roads, and once all your family's gone why even stay in Kirkwall and get involved in the finale?

The central plot only barely touches on Hawke and Hawke's journey, often-times something plot related happens and Hawke has to react. That's a weakness. If the game was just about Hawke's rise to Champion, then the storyline's over at the end of Act 2. And that story would need to have Hawke actually setting out to become Champion, meeting nobles and big players in the games, making allies and enemies (like killing the Magistrate's son should make an enemy that would hurt your cause of being proclaimed Champion). That in itself would have been a fun game, but that's not the point of this game, despite the marketing saying so. You become Champion without wanting it, questing for it, and once you're Champion you have no additional power. Your word means nothing to Orisno or Meredith or the people of Kirkwall. You're still just Hawke.

DA2 was an attempt at something a little different, and you are all judging it based on the normal RPG format.

No. I'm judging it on storytelling format of having a central plot. Even a 'slice of life' drama/comedy movie has a central plot. The characters have a purpose and do things towards that goal. Hawke has no goal and is completely uninvolved with the Templar/Mage war until dragged into it. It's not an exciting story with personal stakes involved, it's not what Hawke wants and Hawke does nothing to forward that plot, other characters do for Hawke.

Has nothing to do with the general RPG storyline and everything to do with the plot being weak and impersonal to Hawke. Like if the point was 'Hawke tries to protect his family' then the family should have stayed around until Act 3, we should have gotten to know them throughout Acts 1 and 2 and then in Act 3 join a side to protect them, maybe kill off anyone who's going to die in the last act close to the climax of the story.

Instead, the siblings are gone from the game after Act 1 and your mom only says two more things before she's gone. You then spend the rest of the game without any family besides Gamlen who has nothing to say to you until he has a quest.

[Darth Obvious]

@OP: Who ever said that the game lacked focus? Do I suspect a strawman in our midst?

The problem with the game is that the 3rd act is completely anti-climactic. It has nothing to do with focus. Act 3 should have ended with a massive Qunari invasion/war, with Act 2 being when you choose between the Templars and mages. Then, whichever side you supported in Act 2 would come to your aid in the final battles of Act 3. There is simply no other logical way of doing it.

Building up this huge epic conflict with the Qunari, and then just forgetting about it in Act 3 was completely insane on the part of the devs. Somebody should be fired for that blunder.

Modifié par Darth Obvious, 28 mars 2011 - 08:49 .

[vigna]

Curlain wrote...



Act 2 was fine, as long as you got yourself invested in the quests in Act 1, I found you had definite motivation and purpose for that section, and the story therefore has definite focus. I do think though they could have keep the sibling at your side, I know their removal provides a dramatic moment in the end of Act 1, but I think the overall value of keeping them with you for the continued sibling dynamic would have been provided a more interesting experience, particularly with Leandra's death.

Act 3

And finally I felt that Meredith and Orsino were missed opportunities, I felt they both should have been involved in the game from Act 1, and built up. I was hoping in both we would get characters similar to Loghain for example, providing you with thought-provoking characters who have complicated rationales for their actions, the kind that stir debate latter on the forums (and you only have to look at the Loghain threads in the Origins forums to see those debates). But thanks to the idol instead of a Templar Knight-Commander providing thought-provoking challenges to pure mage freedom and showing reasons why many in Thedas see the Templars and their actions as necessary we get largely a cardboard-cutout insane James Bond villain type, in fact just like the type of evil mage/dark blackguard type villain you get in many 'save the world' type games. And Orsinio isn't much better, as he fills the role of the apparently quiet rational book-learned man on the surface who turns out to be a secret crazy/devil worshipper etc underneath with his revelation of his involvement with the serial killer mage Quentin and then transforming into a Harvester (even when you side with him, and are winning against the Templars).
.

Great post. I think having the sibling around would have been great and added depth to the story. It also seems heavy handed to have your entire family die or lost to you in diff parts of the story. It is heavy, and kinda cheap in an emotional sense. What would have been interesting and a reason for Hawke to side with one or the other would have been easy. You and your sibling companion find out that your mother's death was, in fact, carried out by the other party, and blamed on the one you are supposed to fight (no matter which side you choose). So, the mages or templars would have set it up and blamed it on the other to get you on their side. That would have added another dynamic rather than it being O, when you are supposed to side with the Mages.
I understand the "both sides are wrong" aspect of the story, but i wanted more reason to side with either one.

[Addai]

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...

To allanon10101a on Page 2.


[quote]I think people are looking at this the wrong way. DA2 is not an RPG in the same sense DA:O was. DA:O, you're writing your destiny for a story that hasn't been told yet. DA2 is the retelling of the rise of Hawke to become the Champion of Kirkwall from Hawke's perspective. Their storyline has been laid out to show events as he saw them.[/quote]

But you still need a strong plot and motivation to forward that plot. Act 1 has you wander around collecting gold for a dangerous mission that may or may not pay off. A mission that may kill you and everyone involved. Why doesn't Hawke just do all those side quests, save up the money, and move himself and his sister out of Kirkwall and away from all those Templars? Exactly, what is so important about going on a possibly suicidal mission into the Deep Roads?

The game says so. Hawke has no reason to do that, no more than he does saving up that money and buying a store and earning a living for his family. Or buying passage back to their home country and safety for Bethany. Or anything else you could do for the fortune of 50 gold.[/quote]
It's the family home and it means a lot to your mother to be in her birthplace and discover that her family did not disinherit her after all.

Half the complaints- or more- would disappear if people just paid attention to the story.
[/quote]

[Foolsfolly]

It's the family home and it means a lot to your mother to be in her birthplace and discover that her family did not disinherit her after all.

Half the complaints- or more- would disappear if people just paid attention to the story.

Her brother lost the family home and she may lose her daughter/Hawke if they stay with the way Meredith is going. And Gamlen himself asks if she'd have ever come back if not for the Blight and she says she always thought so...but probably not.

Seriously, if the only thing holding us in Kirkwall is mom's nostalgia for her childhood then she obviously doesn't care about her children's fate. The Templar in Kirkwall are over-zealous and evading Templar was their entire lives, that's why they settled down in Lothering in the first place.

In fact, her husband hated the Circle in Kirkwall and they escaped Kirkwall to escape that Circle. There was nothing in Kirkwall for them.

And even if, even if, your Hawke stayed because Hawke wanted to help mom feel like she was back home...then what's keeping an apostate Hawke in the worst place for apostates in the world? What's keeping a rogue/warrior from busting into the Circle and running off with Bethany to keep her safe?