192 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

But the question wasn't why Meredith went insane, but how did things turn out to be the way they ended up being

But that is how things turned out.

The expedition brought the idol back, which Meredith grabbed. The idol does vague magical things including drive people insane. All the mistreating of mages, and how more and more mages are made tranquil after we find the Idol seems to point that Meredith's gone nutters because she has it.

In Meredith's idol driven paranoia she oppresses mages even more than they were before. Which causes the mages to turn to blood magic, which spirals the situation out of control.

The only other variable is Anders who is an abomination who's also gone paranoid (read his Act 3 codex entry, he's paranoid and cannot control the Justice switches). Anders's paranoia's brought on a Spirit and Meredith's paranoia brought on by a plot device we're never even given an explanation on just isn't interesting.

It would have been far more interesting had Anders done what he did while being perfectly sane. After all, real life human beings do great terrible things without the excuse of being possessed by a spirit, why can't a DA2 character? It would have been far more interesting if Meredith wasn't driven insane by an unexplained idol.

It would have been more satisfying, intelligent, and entertaining had Meredith and Orsinso been two well written characters with contradicting opinions on the rights of mages. The whole public safety vs private liberty discussion is an interesting one that taps into our modern times. By cheapening it with outer-human elements made the story less interesting.

And that's why if the game isn't about the plot, nor about Hawke, but instead about how the war got started....it still fails.

And maybe you had fun doing random side quests and helping your companions, I enjoy the character work in this game as much as any other fan. But a game isn't about the side-quests. Those are optional missions that add hours and enjoyment to the game's story and/or setting, not the entire story.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 29 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[ZombiePowered]

It isn't just the focus that is Hawke, the plot itself is Hawke or, more specifically, Hawke's rise to power; how he became champion and set off events that have brought to world to its knees. The Mage vs Templars issue is a major conflict, yes, and at the end of the game it is certainly the most pressing issue, but it is not the focus or the main plot of the game. Bioware from day one has said this game is about Hawke's rise to power, how he went from refugee to champion who brought the world to the brink of war. In the very beginning of the game you have Pentaghast asking where Hawke is, and about his story. The entire story. If all she wanted to know was how he was involved with the Templars and Mages, then Varric could have told that. But that is not what was asked, and thus it was not the story that was told. Pentaghast's demand was "If you can't tell me where he is, then tell me everything you know."

Yes, the mage vs templar issue is huge and pervades the game from very early on, but the Qunari make a fairly early appearance. Just because they aren't the note the game ended on doesn't mean they are one large sidequest. If Bioware intended the plot of the game to be Mages vs Templars, then they had no reason or need to give the Qunari such a large role. The fact is the plot structure of the game is episodic; each episode keeps track of various conflicts that will become important later on, but each episode stands on its own nonetheless. The only central feature tying all of them firmly together is that Hawke was right there at the heart of each of these events.

Now, I certainly agree that getting more of a hint of the big players in the Mage vs Templar conflict earlier on would have been nice. That was done with the Arishok, and it worked wonders. It was also done with characters like Cullen, which was excellent. It should have been done with Meredith and Orsino as well.

Regardless, the central overarching plot of DA2 was not the conflict between Mage and Templar; the plot was Hawke's rise to power, which happened over a series of events that were all vital to larger developing concerns in Thedas. The discovery in the Deep Roads is of great interest to the Wardens. The defeat/appeasement of the Qunari, and especially the impression they received of the corrupt, avarice-fueled mess that is Kirkwall, has likely fueled some fires over there. If that doesn't push them over the edge, the idea of bas saarebas running rampant all over Thedas just might. Finally, the Mage-Templar rebellion that is the result of act III is of obvious importance, but just because it is the final note of the game and the most urgent issue to come out of it does not mean it was the entire point and true plot of the game. It was the final step to Hawke's birth into legend, but the other steps along the way were just as vital, just as important, and just as essential to the plot as act III.

[MrStorm2K]

Arguably, the fact that people are still arguing over what the plot was is evidence enough it wasn't done that well.

I still hold to the idea that the story in DA2 is magnificent, just at such a small scale people don't know how to take it.

[ZombiePowered]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Hawkes have nothing in Kirkwall and as the years go by the city takes more from them. They even have Varric and Alistair ask you about returning to Ferelden and if you say you want to go back it has no affect. There's no leaving the city until the game's complete because the plot requires that. But there's no character reason to stay.

Hawke and his family have no reason to go back, either. Lothering is a blight-infested hole in the ground, where crops will no longer go because of the blight disease that ruins the land. Thus, any friends Hawke had in Lothering are scattered to the winds because their land is no longer tenable.

Furthermore, Hawke has immediate family in Kirkwall until midway through Act II. However, by the time his family is all dead (except for Gamlen, and who would want to abandon him?), Hawke has also formed friendships and created a life for himself in Kirkwall. He has an estate there, and a fortune. Yes, he could liquidate and go back to Ferelden where nothing is waiting for him, but he now has other people keeping him in Kirkwall. Kirkwall becomes Hawke's new home, and he tries to resolve the conflicts that erupt throughout it because he doesn't want his home destroyed and his friends murdered, not to mention that by act III he is the Champion. If the Warden wouldn't abandon his duty to the Grey Wardens, the Champion of Kirkwall wouldn't abandon his duty to Kirkwall.

Modifié par ZombiePowered, 29 mars 2011 - 06:45 .

[scpulley]

txgoldrush wrote...

How does this story lack focus? Especally compared to most other WRPGs and JRPGs, and most Rockstar titles.

In fact, it doesn't

Its actually much more focused than most grand game stories, including DAO.

How?

The narrative themes tie almost all the quests together. Far better than most WRPGs. The obvuious main theme is how people have tendencies to esclate or instigate conflicts and situations, no matter how good the intentions may be. The main story especially deals with this theme....Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and even Aveline's questlines deal with this theme. Most main plot elements do as well...from the mage/templar conflict to Sister Petrices attempts to provoke the Qunari, even Aveline's attempt to force the Arishok to hand over the criminals is an act of esclation...in a situation already at the breaking point. Even the Bone Pit mine quests connect to the main plot through theme. The workers keep digging, running into bigger and bigger monster nests, until they are killed by a High Dragon.

Then there are themes of family, death and loss, madness, and uncertainity. Uncertainty plays a big part in the Qunari quest line, as well as many of the closing conversations with characters, as well as the ending itself.

Also, when isn't a story allowed to change central goals?

If it does, that doesn't mean lack of focus, but change of focus. DAII does this, but the themes always had a central focus.

The only part that really has pacing issues is the first act may be in exposition too long, but still it does introduce all the players that play a role in the story later. But the first act is excusable because it lacks a sense of urgency, so it is reasonable to go around and do jobs for everybody as there is no pressure for time, but there is stil a goal, fund the expedition and get the maps to the Deep Roads. It is so unrealistic when a game allows you to do everything while the plot implies urgency. Its also notable in that if there is a sense of urgency in DAII, they force you to do the quest (outside of All That Remains, although you can't save her anyway).

Its that gamers and game reviews are so used to saving the world plots and stories that have race against the clock moments that they are not used to stories that have different pacing and play by different rules.

And WRPGs will alway shave "focus" problems, that is due to their more open nature...however a good well written WRPG will have most quests tie in with the central theme or secondary themes, and DAII does this splendidly.

You missed the part where.....all the story telling in the game is great. It just forgets to explain one little thing, WHY SHOULD HAWKE CARE. We get that he has a lot of emo things happen to him, but emo sad face type story telling doesn't really work as a plot device unless you are playing Twilight the RPG. This isn't some daytime soap opera, it's a video game, the majority of their audience are synical, and for the most part, males. While some might go for that sort of mellodrama, the majority are just going to be turned off by it. Sad things happening aside, can you tell me any reason at all why the story kept focus or more importantly why Hawke would care about that big decision at the end? There wasn't any, he was just there and the only neutral party wasn't there to decide, so they just picked a random noble? That's what it felt like. It wasn't a lack of focus, it was a complete lack of connecting the main character to the plot of the story. It's writing 101. If the plot moves along with no connection to your only window to the world, it's like you are standing on a street corner and a car flies by. You may notice a few details and thing about it when it's there, but if it goes 10 miles away and gets into an accident, you don't care because it's out of sight and out of mind. That's what the story felt like at the end, it left the main character behind so you heard about all the crazy stuff that happened to the car, but you didn't see it, it's not your car, and you weren't involved. How much are you really going to care about that car?

[Foolsfolly]

MrStorm2K wrote...

Arguably, the fact that people are still arguing over what the plot was is evidence enough it wasn't done that well.

I still hold to the idea that the story in DA2 is magnificent, just at such a small scale people don't know how to take it.

I generally believe that the idea of the story, Mage/Templars was a great one. I liked the characters. I liked the idea that Meredith's zealotry comes from the loss of her family and how she wants to safeguard people from crazed mages.

I just think the presentation of this story is lacking. If it's not just poor pacing it's also leaving plot points untouched so they can be brought back as DLC or for the next game. That's just bad storytelling, you have to finish your current story before you start the next one. It's completely different to leave a few hooks dangling to be brought up again later, it's totally different to have a whole Thaig found, an ancient evil idol made of an unknown type of lyrium, and have that in a game where no one asks questions about these events/items just so you can wrap that thread up later.

There was a saying a professor of mine had, "Don't save for the sequel; because if you do you won't have a sequel."

And again, it would help if Hawke had some motivation. It's like Kurt Vonnegut said, "Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water."

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 29 mars 2011 - 06:56 .

[MrStorm2K]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I generally believe that the idea of the story, Mage/Templars was a great one. I liked the characters. I liked the idea that Meredith's zealotry comes from the loss of her family and how she wants to safeguard people from crazed mages.

I just think the presentation of this story is lacking. If it's not just poor pacing it's also leaving plot points untouched so they can be brought back as DLC or for the next game. That's just bad storytelling, you have to finish your current story before you start the next one. It's completely different to leave a few hooks dangling to be brought up again later, it's totally different to have a whole Thaig found, an ancient evil idol made of an unknown type of lyrium, and have that in a game where no one asks questions about these events/items just so you can wrap that thread up later.

There was a saying a professor of mine had, "Don't save for the sequel; because if you do you won't have a sequel."

All fair points. I would say some of the questlines that seem random, like finding Mage X doing horrible thing Y, serve a larger purpose and help clairfy the atmosphere, themes, and context of the story. But there are certainly plenty of threads that are just left hanging, for sure.  

And again, it would help if Hawke had some motivation. It's like Kurt Vonnegut said, "Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water."

The only time Hawke really has no motivation is inbetween acts. During the acts, you have to worry about survival, the personal demands of the Viscount and Qunari, and the mage/templar conflict. But one could easily hand wave the breaks between acts and say Hawke was doing important things, and I'm sure they'll do that with DLC.

[Lianaar]

Aloradus wrote...
Well said, I respect this.  There are plenty of things to like in this game.  But, do you not think the game would have been more enjoyable if Hawke actually had an interest and cause in the main events that happened... Instead of watching how they happened?

For many people yes, for me no. This game gave me what I seek in table top games. This very much resembles what sort of table top games I play for 15 years now. These are the stories that I enjoy. It is realistic in claiming that some things you simply can not influence, because you are not strong enough, known enough, rich enough, confidential to certain people. Would I have enjoyed if there would some other paths to take? As in becoming a part of the chantry in dying in the boom Anders did? I would have enjoyed that. It still would not have changed the reason people complain.

I am focused on the interpersonal relations of both my chars, companions and others. So for me it was primal, that the characters had their own agendra, which they shared or did not share with my character. And in that field, I had a lot of effect (just think on Merril not building the mirror, or Isabel leaving. When I had to kill Fenris because he turned against me, as I didn't convince him enough to side with me, that was a very emotional moment. It was exactly what I expected. Knowing that people might decide not to blindly obey me is exactly the change in behavior that I seek. Depending on my actions, the other people in the game react in a different manner. It will not stop some events, because you are not an all knower.)

Some things could have been better, like I would have enjoyed if my char can pick which story she goes after more and in more detail, but this is not a table top game, but a computer game. Within its genre limits, it gave me what I enjoy most.

[ExiledMimic]

The game lacks a theme you want to hold onto, which has been said. However it lacks certain key elements in recent Bioware titles. When you were charging into Denerim at the end of DAO after the speech and 1-shotting darkspawn and saying goodbye to your companions and you had every NPC and their grandmother cheering you on in columns... that gives you a feeling of greatness.

Also the two speeches in ME2 you give out, the fight to get into the Collector Base and then taking 2 team mates up on that platform and getting that buzzed feeling that you're storming hell it's self... that was a feeling of epic.

When you defend mages and the cutscene is nothing but mages getting beat down like red headed step children... well not so epic. Or when they all turn into blood mages... no. Not epic. It failed long before that to instill a lasting feeling of importance, but in that last frame it had the chance and seemed to bypass it out of spite. That's why the plot feels without focus. Because you have nothing to care about.

Except Bethany. If you don't like her you're a soulless individual.

[txgoldrush]

scpulley wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

How does this story lack focus? Especally compared to most other WRPGs and JRPGs, and most Rockstar titles.

In fact, it doesn't

Its actually much more focused than most grand game stories, including DAO.

How?

The narrative themes tie almost all the quests together. Far better than most WRPGs. The obvuious main theme is how people have tendencies to esclate or instigate conflicts and situations, no matter how good the intentions may be. The main story especially deals with this theme....Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and even Aveline's questlines deal with this theme. Most main plot elements do as well...from the mage/templar conflict to Sister Petrices attempts to provoke the Qunari, even Aveline's attempt to force the Arishok to hand over the criminals is an act of esclation...in a situation already at the breaking point. Even the Bone Pit mine quests connect to the main plot through theme. The workers keep digging, running into bigger and bigger monster nests, until they are killed by a High Dragon.

Then there are themes of family, death and loss, madness, and uncertainity. Uncertainty plays a big part in the Qunari quest line, as well as many of the closing conversations with characters, as well as the ending itself.

Also, when isn't a story allowed to change central goals?

If it does, that doesn't mean lack of focus, but change of focus. DAII does this, but the themes always had a central focus.

The only part that really has pacing issues is the first act may be in exposition too long, but still it does introduce all the players that play a role in the story later. But the first act is excusable because it lacks a sense of urgency, so it is reasonable to go around and do jobs for everybody as there is no pressure for time, but there is stil a goal, fund the expedition and get the maps to the Deep Roads. It is so unrealistic when a game allows you to do everything while the plot implies urgency. Its also notable in that if there is a sense of urgency in DAII, they force you to do the quest (outside of All That Remains, although you can't save her anyway).

Its that gamers and game reviews are so used to saving the world plots and stories that have race against the clock moments that they are not used to stories that have different pacing and play by different rules.

And WRPGs will alway shave "focus" problems, that is due to their more open nature...however a good well written WRPG will have most quests tie in with the central theme or secondary themes, and DAII does this splendidly.

You missed the part where.....all the story telling in the game is great. It just forgets to explain one little thing, WHY SHOULD HAWKE CARE. We get that he has a lot of emo things happen to him, but emo sad face type story telling doesn't really work as a plot device unless you are playing Twilight the RPG. This isn't some daytime soap opera, it's a video game, the majority of their audience are synical, and for the most part, males. While some might go for that sort of mellodrama, the majority are just going to be turned off by it. Sad things happening aside, can you tell me any reason at all why the story kept focus or more importantly why Hawke would care about that big decision at the end? There wasn't any, he was just there and the only neutral party wasn't there to decide, so they just picked a random noble? That's what it felt like. It wasn't a lack of focus, it was a complete lack of connecting the main character to the plot of the story. It's writing 101. If the plot moves along with no connection to your only window to the world, it's like you are standing on a street corner and a car flies by. You may notice a few details and thing about it when it's there, but if it goes 10 miles away and gets into an accident, you don't care because it's out of sight and out of mind. That's what the story felt like at the end, it left the main character behind so you heard about all the crazy stuff that happened to the car, but you didn't see it, it's not your car, and you weren't involved. How much are you really going to care about that car?

Did you miss the part where Flemeth basically tells her to embrace destiny? On Sundermount in Act I?

Flemeth: We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment...and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap.

Hawke is acting on Flemeth's advice.

[txgoldrush]

ExiledMimic wrote...

The game lacks a theme you want to hold onto, which has been said. However it lacks certain key elements in recent Bioware titles. When you were charging into Denerim at the end of DAO after the speech and 1-shotting darkspawn and saying goodbye to your companions and you had every NPC and their grandmother cheering you on in columns... that gives you a feeling of greatness.

Also the two speeches in ME2 you give out, the fight to get into the Collector Base and then taking 2 team mates up on that platform and getting that buzzed feeling that you're storming hell it's self... that was a feeling of epic.

When you defend mages and the cutscene is nothing but mages getting beat down like red headed step children... well not so epic. Or when they all turn into blood mages... no. Not epic. It failed long before that to instill a lasting feeling of importance, but in that last frame it had the chance and seemed to bypass it out of spite. That's why the plot feels without focus. Because you have nothing to care about.

Except Bethany. If you don't like her you're a soulless individual.

Why does everything have to be "epic"?

Bethany alone made the finale important. its a far more personal and far darker game than Origins. Its not trying to be "epic". Its instead frightening and chaotic....like genocide.

[CaolIla]

I don't have to read more then the title to say: you're wrong.

[Foolsfolly]

Why does everything have to be mundane?

[MrStorm2K]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Why does everything have to be mundane?

How many personal, dark "mundane" RPG storylines are there? DA2 teases an upcoming epic, but keeps it low key during the game itself. I have no problem with not having an epic in DA2. It was far more interesting to explore tragic, flawed characters and situations than many parts of your standard epic RPG.

[Foolsfolly]

DA2 isn't that personal. Hawke has no goals, the family's dusted off before the second half of the game starts, and Hawke's story lacks any sort of closure. Even the romances in this game feel cold and sterile what with the fact that you only talk to your love whenever they have a quest telling you to talk to them.

Edit:

Also:

It was far more interesting to explore tragic, flawed characters and
situations than many parts of your standard epic RPG.

You act like you can't have complex side characters that you care about in epic games. This series started off with complex side characters as you traveled around a nation fighting an ultimate evil, getting your friend/lover on the throne, building an army, and maybe even getting a heroic glorious death.

To have one does not mean you cannot have the other. I'm sick of hearing this crap.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 29 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[MrStorm2K]

Foolsfolly wrote...

DA2 isn't that personal. Hawke has no goals, the family's dusted off before the second half of the game starts, and Hawke's story lacks any sort of closure. Even the romances in this game feel cold and sterile what with the fact that you only talk to your love whenever they have a quest telling you to talk to them.

Hawke's goals are largely user-defined, an ever present family isn't required to tell a personal story, and you can get into fairly heated conversations with your companions.

Yes, the story closure is minimal. Yes, party... integration (or whatever you want to call it) wasn't done well. DA2 is flawed, but still interesting and personal.

You act like you can't have complex side characters that you care about in epic games. This series started off with complex side characters as you traveled around a nation fighting an ultimate evil, getting your friend/lover on the throne, building an army, and maybe even getting a heroic glorious death.

To have one does not mean you cannot have the other. I'm sick of hearing this crap.

Actually, I would argue that generally, you can't. You have to specialize and pick your battles. DA:O was in development for, what, 5 years and still had issues in areas? To pull off a sense of "epicness" you need a large, broad game with a driven, focused narrative. Writing the characters will take a hit. If that doesn't take a hit, something else will.

It's unfortunate, but realistic.

Modifié par MrStorm2K, 29 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[Foolsfolly]

Hawke's goals are largely user-defined

But Hawke isn't. This game was written.

an ever present family isn't required to tell a personal story

It is when that's the only thing resembling a reason for Hawke's actions. Hawke's trying to take care of the last sibling and the mother but fails miserably at both because Hawke can't have anything nice.

and you can get into fairly heated conversations with your companions.

Which affect nothing. They still hang around, they can actually fall in love with you, and their fates and actions are set in stone regardless of anything Hawke does. Not that a disagreement makes something personal but I'm of a mood this morning.

Yes, the story closure is minimal.

Hawke wordlessly walk away.

Yes, party... integration (or whatever you want to call it) wasn't done well.

Oh, Isabela, why are you still here?

DA2 is flawed

Yep.

but still interesting and personal.

But it's not personal! Is all that is required to make a story personal is that the character exists? Is it because there's a voice actor now? Is it because the character has a name? If so then Tomb Raider: Underworld is a deeply personal moving piece of art.

Hawke's a constantly late, unmotivated errand boy who gets dragged into things.

The game's bipolar with Hawke. Is Hawke a powerless refugee trying to make their way through the world, or is Hawke some master fighter able to slay the toughest opponents in the world including High Dragons, the Arishok, and Crazy-High-Jumping Meredith?

And if the last thing, why doesn't Hawke have the force of will to change anything, even his clothes! But if it's the first thing then why do people ask for his opinion (and then ignore it) in the first place? He's just a lost refugee trying to make his way in the world.

[Lithuasil]

Foolsfolly wrote...
DA2 isn't that personal. Hawke has no goals, the family's dusted off before the second half of the game starts, and Hawke's story lacks any sort of closure. Even the romances in this game feel cold and sterile what with the fact that you only talk to your love whenever they have a quest telling you to talk to them.

Act 1: Take your only chance to obtain enough status to protect yourself/bethany, by doing the only kind of jobs you can get, if you bested an ogre, and the city is overflowing with refugees.
Act 2: The leader of the very city you've made your new home, asks you to help him calm the Qunari, because no one else can. Qunari loose it, you try to get home, get blackmailed into helping by meredith.
Act 3: You have obtained enough status, to have political weight, and therefore the two opposite parties both try to get you into their boat. Ultimately, both tell you you're either with them or against them.

The story is increasingly badly executed towards the end. That diminishes it's effect, not it's quality.
Also: Personal taste. Only being able to talk to them when they have something to say, didn't bother me as much, as being able to talk to them, and try out five different versions of "No, nevermind".

You act like you can't have complex side characters that you care about in epic games. This series started off with complex side characters as you traveled around a nation fighting an ultimate evil, getting your friend/lover on the throne, building an army, and maybe even getting a heroic glorious death.

To have one does not mean you cannot have the other. I'm sick of hearing this crap.

You *can* have different interesting, human characters all part of an epic story (See A game of Thrones). What you *can't* have, is one character, encountering and fixing every problem in the world, and still stay an interesting, complex, emotional character. In other words, you can have it in books, you can't have it in rpgs, unless you're happy with piloting a bland vessel, that merely encounters those interesting characters (see Origins).

[MrStorm2K]

Foolsfolly wrote...

But Hawke isn't. This game was written.

Not quite sure I get your point here. Could you elaborate?

It is when that's the only thing resembling a reason for Hawke's actions. Hawke's trying to take care of the last sibling and the mother but fails miserably at both because Hawke can't have anything nice.

In the first act, you have your family and your reasons. Beginning in the second act, your reasons conveniently transfer from your family to the city of Kirkwall. Oddly enough, it's around the same time you lose your mom. Funny, eh?

Which affect nothing. They still hang around, they can actually fall in love with you, and their fates and actions are set in stone regardless of anything Hawke does. Not that a disagreement makes something personal but I'm of a mood this morning.

They can leave your party, actually. And yeah, they can fall in love. Yet, their actions react to you. Merril does different things depending on whether you support her actions or not, for example. Their fate isn't set in stone either. They can live or die depending on your actions.

Sure, Merril can't be convinced that blood magic is evil and Sebastian can't be convinced to renounce the Maker. But not everyone gives up their beliefs because someone disapproves. Expecting that to such a radical degree is unrealistic, I'd think. Am I wrong?

But it's not personal! Is all that is required to make a story personal is that the character exists? Is it because there's a voice actor now? Is it because the character has a name? If so then Tomb Raider: Underworld is a deeply personal moving piece of art.

Hawke's a constantly late, unmotivated errand boy who gets dragged into things.

The game's bipolar with Hawke. Is Hawke a powerless refugee trying to make their way through the world, or is Hawke some master fighter able to slay the toughest opponents in the world including High Dragons, the Arishok, and Crazy-High-Jumping Meredith?

Hawke's character evolves throughout the game. Hawke isn't bipolar, he's progressing. At the beginning, he is a glorified errand boy. At the end, he's the Champion of Kirkwall, slayer of dragons and Qunari. The game shows this transition rather clearly, except maybe in parts of Act 2 where it gets a tad muddled.

And if the last thing, why doesn't Hawke have the force of will to change anything, even his clothes! But if it's the first thing then why do people ask for his opinion (and then ignore it) in the first place? He's just a lost refugee trying to make his way in the world.

Force of will does not, and cannot, solve everything. Advisors are ignored, elders are mocked, great armies are defeated, assassins are foiled, and people die. Even if you're the wisest sage Hawke, would it be reasonable to expect you could talk people out of positions they arrived at after years of witnessing injustices?

This element is part of the "non-epic" or "personal" flavor of DA2. It's personal, in that it's more about Hawke & Friends and personal development. It's non-epic, in that you don't save the world as much as you pick up the pieces after it falls apart.

[Curlain]

In the question of the how vs why, I would say an RP game still needs a why, you need reason and motivation for the PC to do what they are doing, rather then just because the game says that's what they have to do. It would not have taken much in Act 1 to give Hawke justification to do the main quests, they could have dealt with the question of why can't Hawke and family leave Kirkwall (centre of hardline Templars) for somewhere else by having Varric state in his introduction (or by your sibling in the opening convo) that the Qunari arrival in the storm has caused all general travel to and from Kirkwal to be put on hold until the crisis stabilises. Something along these lines would answer why Hawke can't simple use all this money they make in Act 1 to move somewhere safer, as that wouldn't be an option due to the Qunari arrival.

The game could also have had you do the will quest either at the end of the prologue, before your year of service, or right at the beginning, as part of that quest you could meet a noble/magistrate/official who will agree to use their influence to make sure the will is recognised by the Viscount and courts of Kirkwall.  However due to gambling debts or bad advice has ended up invested in Bartrand's Expedition and wants Hawke to go along to make sure the Expedition works out, before they agree to help with the will. Varric could still come in with his offer then of partnership (which helps Hawke make some money out of the deal).

The Blackpower Promise quest could have involved the dwarf (Jarvis is it?) going after the Tal Vashoth for the blackpower if you initially refuse his offer, but being captured by some Qunari patrol and implicating Hawke and co as accomplices in seeking the Qunari secret. After a confrontation with the Arshok you explain your innocence but are tasked with taking care of the Tal Vashoth to prove yourself (or else).

And Sheparding Wolves could have involved Sister Petrice blackmailing Hawke over the character's own or their sister Bethany's apostate status.

In all three situations you are still being railroaded, but Hawke is given RP reasons to do the quests ingame, rather then just being told by the game to do them, for no real rational reason from Hawke's perspective. I'm not saying my ideas are good ones, but I'm sure the talented BioWare writers could have come up with some very good hooks that are far better then my suggestions, they are just given as an idea of what I felt was lacking in Act 1.

As for Meredith and Orisinio, I just have to agree with Foolsfolly, it would have been far better if they had been given more depth as characters and hadn't (given the story) been pushed by possession by either idol or spirit (in the case of Anders) to do their actions, but were rather complex characters with understandable rationales (such as Loghain). It was rather sad to see the final enemy being the villain from many more generic 'save the world' stories particularly as the story wasn't a 'save the world' plot. The Arshok and Sister Petrice were actually allot more compelling then Orisinio and Meredith (or even Anders to an extent), it's rather a shame the game didn't expand on the story of Act 2 and those to characters instead.

Modifié par Curlain, 29 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[AlexXIV]

The game loses focus at the end of Act1.

Simply when Hawke comes to Kirkwall as a refugee his/her motivation is survival and protecting the family. Hawke succeeds to make a fortune, and at the same time loses all of the family. That's the end.

What comes now is a forced story plot that never sufficiently explains why things are the way they are. For some reason the Viscount burdens Hawke with dealing with the Qunari. Whether Hawke likes them or not, respects them or not, it's Hawke's problem. Only reason I can see is that the game demands Hawke to be the Champion which requires to end the Qunari thread.

At this point Hawke has made a fortune and lost the family, so what's the motivation? To be a hero? Why? People claim DA2 is more about  a 'normal' person rather than the Hero of Ferelden who's purpose in life was to end the blight and kill darkspawn. So why would Hawke be bothered to help out the Viscount or the city guards or whoever?

In Act3 it gets even worse. People come to Hawke for help because he/she is the 'Champion'. Obviously being the Champion means to help everyone and their mom to fix their problems. And in the end take part in the templar vs. mages conflict even though Hawke may not be either templar nor mage, and may have lost the last sibling by now. So what's the point?

Sorry but 'solving problems' doesn't qualify as focus. That's basically what every game out there is about. Thing is you don't understand why Hawke is getting involved in so many things that wouldn't be his/her business. So is Hawke the hero type or the normal type?

The difference between a good story and DA2 is that in a good story you are not so obviously forced on the main story without much explanation. In a good story the characters do what makes sense and not what they need to do to push the story forward. The only motivation after Act1 is there because it is a game, and people are used to go from quest to quest until all are solved and then on to the next Chapter. But what is Hawke's motivation to risk his/her life after Hawke is rich and lost the family? There is just alot to be lost and nothing to be gained.

Just look at the companion quests. Why is Hawke helping everyone? What does Hawke gain? Companions for other errands for other people? At the end of Act2 Hawke is the Champion, Kirkwall nobility and spent the last 4 years to solve everyone's problem, but of course that isn't enough to be fit for Viscount or any position of true power. Only the 'Champion' title which basically means that Hawke must help everyone some more. Well thanks, as a reward for helping everyone Hawke gets a title that requires him/her to help more?

Sorry, but I have never played a game that had so little common sense and logic in their story. If Bioware had in mind to make a 'more realistc' character than the Hero of Ferelden, then they only proved that they have no clue how it is to be done.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 29 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[blahq34653]

My only response to this is this scene from Adaptation

[Miashi]

There’s a few things that have been said in this topic that could’ve made the story more compelling, engaging and “focused”, while not necessarily break the core lines of it. Here’s a few ideas I’ve picked around and some of my own:

- Make the over-exxagerated beginning a tutorial. Allow players that are familiar to the game skip it. You have to do it again anyways. It brings nothing new and exciting to the story.

- Give a feeling of urgency and purpose to collect the coins in Act 1:
o For example; Gamlen has debt problems (there’s nothing new here, if you look on Gamlen’s desk, it says that he is behind on payments) and he’s got the Coterie on his door, and they are threatening your mother, yourself and your sibling in order to get their money back.
o Or your sister is being threatened to be reported to the Templars by one of the group opposing whichever of the mercenaries you decided to team up with.
o Or another one suggested that your mother could get ill (maybe due to how filthy and dirty Lowtown is?). This gives an extra motivation to amass riches in order to buyout the Hightown estate.

- Provide better ways to make yourself more relevant to Qunaris onwards to act 2
o Modify Sheepherding wolves ending so the Qunaris you encounter outside the tunnel survive to tell the tale to the Arishok.
o Provide more subquests that allow you to fight alongside Quanris.

- Make Orsino and Meredith relevant right as act 1 starts;
o Instead of a quick Meredith cameo at the beginning or act 1, provide some cutscenes allowing us to know them better; Mages being arrested in front of your character in plain street; Meredith/Orsino appearances in the Chantry discussing with the Grand Cleric.

- Make Hawke’s ascend through hierarchy between act 1 and act 2 more believable
o If the story is going to force me to become partners with Hubert, then use it as a reason why Hawke becomes an influential force in Kirkwall: For example, in the act 1 - act 2 transition, Varric could mention that your collaboration with Hubert allowed you to quickly become a wealthy person and make your name among the people from Hightown.

- Make Hawke’s actions relevant to Anders:
o Anders should leave party (even momentarily) if Hawke refuses to help plant concoction in the Chantry.
o Anders should drop a line saying how your actions towards mage influenced him in blowing up the Chantry: a friendly Anders should say that Hawke’s actions to defend mage convinced him he had to do something grand to announce to the world that mages should be free. A rival Anders should tell Hawke’s actions convinced him that oppression has to stop and that an explosive response has to be given to the chantry.

More ideas coming up, I’ll edit this post as I get more things along. Also keeping an eye on the forums as well.

[AlexXIV]

It would have been rather easy to have a focus in the game. Hawke's family. Just involve family members in the main plot instead of killing them off early. I am suprised as I write this that Bioware could not figure it out themselves. You have a mage sister and a anti-mage brother. Why kill one and waste conflic potential? Why let the other one disappear after act1? The whole game could be about Hawke looking after his sibling, mom, uncle, cousin, etc. But instead the family gets cut out entirely and leaves a hole that's never filled.

[DreGregoire]

This game has extreme personal focus on Hawke!

To say the plot of the game is the mage vs. templar/chantry is in my opinion inaccurate. The true focus of the game play is on the survival and furthering of the Hawke's lot in life and his impact on those surrounding him. Aveline sums it up well when she tells Hawke that his accomplishments have impacted people both negatively and positively.

This is how I see the whole game and stories. There is the story that Varric tells which is about the Hawke's events leading up to the climatic confrontation between the mages and templars of Kirkwall, but he tells the story to the Chantry Seeker who is trying to figure out what went wrong, who is to blame, and what can be done about it or what can be done to prevent it in the future. I think the seeker wants a way to turn around the plight of the chantry. She seems to be looking for one person or a group of people to blame for the way things turned out. Well life doesn't work like that. People "play" their parts and it evolves into what it becomes.

Hawkes story/gameplay is not specifically about the mage/templar struggle. It is about his and his relatives survival and growth. In the end he is left with very little and depending on which companions he placed his trust in and his personal motivations, beyond his family, determines exactly the impact he has on the mage/templar struggle. His involvement with the Qunari came about because of his own goals not because of this mage/templar struggle. Does Hawke have his own opinions about the struggle? Yes. Does he pick sides on occasion? Yes, because he has no choice. But is Hawke's story purely about the mage/templar struggle? No, and ten years in a person's life leaves opportunity for many goals and readjustment of goals.

So go ahead and argue back and forth about plots and storylines but in my opinion it is cut and dry. The end game "struggle" is not the plot, it's the climax of multiple story lines that lead up to the event. We don't know everything about everybody, because we are playing the part of the Champion of KIrkwall, who became so because he won out against the qunari. As this champion he suddenly had more pull in Kirkwall, but it's all too little and too late to impact the struggle between the mages and templars. The plot is about Hawke's struggle and accomplishments; from a refugee, to champion of Kirkwall, and then into being a voice listened to and respected by others. His major impact is seen in the way he impacts his companions. He's too late to change Ander's plan, he is not even aware of the extremes that Orsino and Meredith will go to in the end and he is again too late to impact those two.

I could go on and on but I've made my point so I'll hush now *winks*

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 mars 2011 - 01:27 .