192 réponses à ce sujet

[Miashi]

DreGregoire wrote...
To say the plot of the game is the mage vs. templar/chantry is in my opinion inaccurate. The true focus of the game play is on the survival and furthering of the Hawke's lot in life and his impact on those surrounding him. Aveline sums it up well when she tells Hawke that his accomplishments have impacted people both negatively and positively.

This is how I see the whole game and stories. There is the story that Varric tells which is about the Hawke's events leading up to the climatic confrontation between the mages and templars of Kirkwall, but he tells the story to the Chantry Seeker who is trying to figure out what went wrong, who is to blame, and what can be done about it or what can be done to prevent it in the future. I think the seeker wants a way to turn around the plight of the chantry. She seems to be looking for one person or a group of people to blame for the way things turned out. Well life doesn't work like that. People "play" their parts and it evolves into what it becomes.

Hawkes story/gameplay is not specifically about the mage/templar struggle. It is about his and his relatives survival and growth. In the end he is left with very little and depending on which companions he placed his trust in and his personal motivations, beyond his family, determines exactly the impact he has on the mage/templar struggle. His involvement with the Qunari came about because of his own goals not because of this mage/templar struggle. Does Hawke have his own opinions about the struggle? Yes. Does he pick sides on occasion? Yes, because he has no choice. But is Hawke's story purely about the mage/templar struggle? No, and ten years in a person's life leaves opportunity for many goals and readjustment of goals.

So go ahead and argue back and forth about plots and storylines but in my opinion it is cut and dry. The end game "struggle" is not the plot, it's the climax of multiple story lines that lead up to the event. We don't know everything about everybody, because we are playing the part of the Champion of KIrkwall, who became so because he won out against the qunari. As this champion he suddenly had more pull in Kirkwall, but it's all too little and too late to impact the struggle between the mages and templars. The plot is about Hawke's struggle and accomplishments; from a refugee, to champion of Kirkwall, and then into being a voice listened to and respected by others. His major impact is seen in the way he impacts his companions. He's too late to change Ander's plan, he is not even aware of the extremes that Orsino and Meredith will go to in the end and he is again too late to impact those two.

I could go on and on but I've made my point so I'll hush now *winks*

See the disparity? You talk about impact yet you say there's no impact.

[DreGregoire]

Miashi wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...
To say the plot of the game is the mage vs. templar/chantry is in my opinion inaccurate. The true focus of the game play is on the survival and furthering of the Hawke's lot in life and his impact on those surrounding him. Aveline sums it up well when she tells Hawke that his accomplishments have impacted people both negatively and positively.

This is how I see the whole game and stories. There is the story that Varric tells which is about the Hawke's events leading up to the climatic confrontation between the mages and templars of Kirkwall, but he tells the story to the Chantry Seeker who is trying to figure out what went wrong, who is to blame, and what can be done about it or what can be done to prevent it in the future. I think the seeker wants a way to turn around the plight of the chantry. She seems to be looking for one person or a group of people to blame for the way things turned out. Well life doesn't work like that. People "play" their parts and it evolves into what it becomes.

Hawkes story/gameplay is not specifically about the mage/templar struggle. It is about his and his relatives survival and growth. In the end he is left with very little and depending on which companions he placed his trust in and his personal motivations, beyond his family, determines exactly the impact he has on the mage/templar struggle. His involvement with the Qunari came about because of his own goals not because of this mage/templar struggle. Does Hawke have his own opinions about the struggle? Yes. Does he pick sides on occasion? Yes, because he has no choice. But is Hawke's story purely about the mage/templar struggle? No, and ten years in a person's life leaves opportunity for many goals and readjustment of goals.

So go ahead and argue back and forth about plots and storylines but in my opinion it is cut and dry. The end game "struggle" is not the plot, it's the climax of multiple story lines that lead up to the event. We don't know everything about everybody, because we are playing the part of the Champion of KIrkwall, who became so because he won out against the qunari. As this champion he suddenly had more pull in Kirkwall, but it's all too little and too late to impact the struggle between the mages and templars. The plot is about Hawke's struggle and accomplishments; from a refugee, to champion of Kirkwall, and then into being a voice listened to and respected by others. His major impact is seen in the way he impacts his companions. He's too late to change Ander's plan, he is not even aware of the extremes that Orsino and Meredith will go to in the end and he is again too late to impact those two.

I could go on and on but I've made my point so I'll hush now *winks*

See the disparity? You talk about impact yet you say there's no impact.

I said he does have impact on others depending on his actions over the years, but he does not have a significant impact on the mage/templar struggle for the exception of being able to choose sides (throughout the game) and momentarily get the two sides to work together. That is what made him the champion; being able to get Orsino and Meredith to join together against the Qunari despite their differences and of course the whole qunari are gone thing. Is his influence enough to impact Meredith, Orsino, and Anders and their core beliefs and plans? No. Even if you do not help Anders. Somebody else does.

The line from Aveline is four years into the game and refers to the difficulty he has caused for the guard and those they protect (ordinary citizens) because he has now bought influence and wealth in Hightown.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 mars 2011 - 02:26 .

[CaolIla]

Just one comment to sum it up: The most important rule for movies and games is "Show, don't tell" and with this game I get the feeling that nearly everything that could be interesting isn't seen but told, like the first year in Kirkwall, daily problems between mages and templars and the problems between the qunari and kirkwall.

[Lithuasil]

The problem is, we have an excellent writing staff, and a dev team with way too much to do, in way too little time. So it ends up being *here, have some codex entries, with all the stuff that would've been in the game, if we had another 18 month to make it*

[Miashi]

If you want to talk about companions, then your influence on the companions remains limited to whether or not they stick around with you in the end, or if they decide to pursue a romance... and this isn't any different from the friendship you create with DA:O companions.

[Miashi]

Lithuasil wrote...

The problem is, we have an excellent writing staff, and a dev team with way too much to do, in way too little time. So it ends up being *here, have some codex entries, with all the stuff that would've been in the game, if we had another 18 month to make it*

Yes. yes.

[DreGregoire]

CaolIla wrote...

Just one comment to sum it up: The most important rule for movies and games is "Show, don't tell" and with this game I get the feeling that nearly everything that could be interesting isn't seen but told, like the first year in Kirkwall, daily problems between mages and templars and the problems between the qunari and kirkwall.

I got a bit miffed about not getting to play the first year but I suppose if we had to play all ten years somebody would complain about the length of the game or there being too many quests or some such. Perish the thought!  I would have gladly played over 100 hours on one playthrough, alas it did not take that long.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 mars 2011 - 02:44 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Lithuasil wrote...

The problem is, we have an excellent writing staff, and a dev team with way too much to do, in way too little time. So it ends up being *here, have some codex entries, with all the stuff that would've been in the game, if we had another 18 month to make it*

Exactly, and unless a person meticulously searches every area the full story goes to waste.  I hope those who demanded a game with such limited resources (money, time, etc) have more realistic expectations next time.

I even wondered if the time crunch effected plans for the soundtrack.  Only one companion got a theme whereas all ME2 characters had their own music.

[Miashi]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...
I even wondered if the time crunch effected plans for the soundtrack.  Only one companion got a theme whereas all ME2 characters had their own music.

It did. The sound artist said he was rushed. There's a topic somewhere on the forums about it. I'll edit once I find it.
edit: here you go
http://music.ign.com.../1154594p1.html

Modifié par Miashi, 29 mars 2011 - 03:14 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Miashi wrote...
It did. The sound artist said he was rushed. There's a topic somewhere on the forums about it. I'll edit once I find it.
edit: here you go
http://music.ign.com.../1154594p1.html

Thanks.

Edit: I love that Zur calls them orcs and the interviewer doesn't blink. 

Modifié par LadyJaneGrey, 29 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[IntheAbsence]

I don't think you're required to have deceptive, self-serving characters for them to be "complex." Obviously, there isn't a Morrigan in this group of characters, but that doesn't mean the game failed in the character department. Seeing each character battle their demons, both literally and figuratively was immensely satisfying. You barely got this sense of conflict within each character in DAO. That just shows that the characters are approached differently this time around.

[Boudicia_]

IntheAbsence wrote...

I don't think you're required to have deceptive, self-serving characters for them to be "complex." Obviously, there isn't a Morrigan in this group of characters, but that doesn't mean the game failed in the character department. Seeing each character battle their demons, both literally and figuratively was immensely satisfying. You barely got this sense of conflict within each character in DAO. That just shows that the characters are approached differently this time around.

Totally agree with this; I got a greater sense of my companions' complexities wiht DA2.  I liked how they would not "just get along" for my sake.  I liked how I saw them change over the years.  This story was not epic in the sense DA:O was.  This story, however, was much more personal. 

[Reinveil]

CaolIla wrote...

Just one comment to sum it up: The most important rule for movies and games is "Show, don't tell" and with this game I get the feeling that nearly everything that could be interesting isn't seen but told, like the first year in Kirkwall, daily problems between mages and templars and the problems between the qunari and kirkwall.

This, this, this.  Foolsfolly very eloquently covered my other gripes with the game's story, and this is the other glaring one.  People keep citing this "rise to power", even claiming that it's evidence of character development or the focus of the story.  And yet this supposed "rise" only actually occurs in-between each act in a cutscene, and basically only because Varric says it did.  You don't actually see or control Hawke as he/she sells the idol (which would of course negate the flimsy "plot twist" at the end), you don't participate in regaining his/her mother's home; it all just happens "off camera", so to speak.  One minute you're a refugee, and literally a minute later you're high society.  Before you become Champion at the close of act 2, you're an errand boy/girl.  After you become Champion, you're...an errand boy/girl, but with a fancier title.  Your various interactions with the people you're supposed to be having this huge impact on change very little.  Really, if that's what the game is supposed to be about, it could not have been executed in a more half-assed fashion.

As somebody else pointed out, the fact that people are even discussing what the plot actually is means Bioware failed.  Also, plot=/=theme.

Modifié par Reinveil, 29 mars 2011 - 06:29 .

[Reinveil]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The problem is, we have an excellent writing staff, and a dev team with way too much to do, in way too little time. So it ends up being *here, have some codex entries, with all the stuff that would've been in the game, if we had another 18 month to make it*

Exactly, and unless a person meticulously searches every area the full story goes to waste.  I hope those who demanded a game with such limited resources (money, time, etc) have more realistic expectations next time.

I even wondered if the time crunch effected plans for the soundtrack.  Only one companion got a theme whereas all ME2 characters had their own music.

I hope you're inferring that it was the publisher that had the unrealistic expectations and not the fans.  I don't think anyone was clamoring for a rushed, sloppy sequel.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Reinveil wrote...
I hope you're inferring that it was the publisher that had the unrealistic expectations and not the fans.  I don't think anyone was clamoring for a rushed, sloppy sequel.

I promise I'm not blaming "the fans."  Not for that anyway.  

[Addai]

Reinveil wrote...

CaolIla wrote...

Just one comment to sum it up: The most important rule for movies and games is "Show, don't tell" and with this game I get the feeling that nearly everything that could be interesting isn't seen but told, like the first year in Kirkwall, daily problems between mages and templars and the problems between the qunari and kirkwall.

This, this, this.  Foolsfolly very eloquently covered my other gripes with the game's story, and this is the other glaring one.  People keep citing this "rise to power", even claiming that it's evidence of character development or the focus of the story.  And yet this supposed "rise" only actually occurs in-between each act in a cutscene, and basically only because Varric says it did.  You don't actually see or control Hawke as he/she sells the idol (which would of course negate the flimsy "plot twist" at the end), you don't participate in regaining his/her mother's home; it all just happens "off camera", so to speak.  One minute you're a refugee, and literally a minute later you're high society.  Before you become Champion at the close of act 2, you're an errand boy/girl.  After you become Champion, you're...an errand boy/girl, but with a fancier title.  Your various interactions with the people you're supposed to be having this huge impact on change very little.  Really, if that's what the game is supposed to be about, it could not have been executed in a more half-assed fashion.

As somebody else pointed out, the fact that people are even discussing what the plot actually is means Bioware failed.  Also, plot=/=theme.

So you wanted to follow Hawke's exciting adventures of wading through the land registry office to get the estate back?  I'm glad Gaider's in charge of the writing and not you.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mars 2011 - 08:09 .

[Aloradus]

Addai67 wrote...

So you wanted to follow Hawke's exciting adventures of wading through the land registry office to get the estate back?  I'm glad Gaider's in charge of the writing and not you.

 Who pulls the strings in act 2, and act 3-- it isnt Hawke, and the main character should be pulling the strings. 

Psshaa this game isn't bad because there was a rush.  Hawke should have died during the first brain storm when they decided the outcome was about a mage rebellion to setup the next game, and world...  Hawke may play a large role later- but in this one he's pushed around muscle at best.

[Lianaar]

Aloradus wrote...
 Who pulls the strings in act 2, and act 3-- it isnt Hawke, and the main character should be pulling the strings. 

The fact it is not Hawke pulling the strings is exactly what I so loved about it.
There are various sort of people. Some people enjoy playing lvl 1 characters and slowly building up their life. And you certainly can't expect a level 1 character to pull any strings unless he is a musicians and has a lapharp or something.
Other people enjoy playing lvl 20+ characters, who already have a past, a name and power, who can make people listen and thus have the ability to pull strings (though I would caution you, since there are always higher skilled, more powerful people, who can pull through your plans easily).
I do enjoy long time character play which includes low level clumsy search for a place in life too. It has its own entertainment value. Should it grow into a string pulling power in the long run? That's nice too.

[scpulley]

txgoldrush wrote...

scpulley wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

How does this story lack focus? Especally compared to most other WRPGs and JRPGs, and most Rockstar titles.

In fact, it doesn't

Its actually much more focused than most grand game stories, including DAO.

How?

The narrative themes tie almost all the quests together. Far better than most WRPGs. The obvuious main theme is how people have tendencies to esclate or instigate conflicts and situations, no matter how good the intentions may be. The main story especially deals with this theme....Anders, Merrill, Isabela, Varric, and even Aveline's questlines deal with this theme. Most main plot elements do as well...from the mage/templar conflict to Sister Petrices attempts to provoke the Qunari, even Aveline's attempt to force the Arishok to hand over the criminals is an act of esclation...in a situation already at the breaking point. Even the Bone Pit mine quests connect to the main plot through theme. The workers keep digging, running into bigger and bigger monster nests, until they are killed by a High Dragon.

Then there are themes of family, death and loss, madness, and uncertainity. Uncertainty plays a big part in the Qunari quest line, as well as many of the closing conversations with characters, as well as the ending itself.

Also, when isn't a story allowed to change central goals?

If it does, that doesn't mean lack of focus, but change of focus. DAII does this, but the themes always had a central focus.

The only part that really has pacing issues is the first act may be in exposition too long, but still it does introduce all the players that play a role in the story later. But the first act is excusable because it lacks a sense of urgency, so it is reasonable to go around and do jobs for everybody as there is no pressure for time, but there is stil a goal, fund the expedition and get the maps to the Deep Roads. It is so unrealistic when a game allows you to do everything while the plot implies urgency. Its also notable in that if there is a sense of urgency in DAII, they force you to do the quest (outside of All That Remains, although you can't save her anyway).

Its that gamers and game reviews are so used to saving the world plots and stories that have race against the clock moments that they are not used to stories that have different pacing and play by different rules.

And WRPGs will alway shave "focus" problems, that is due to their more open nature...however a good well written WRPG will have most quests tie in with the central theme or secondary themes, and DAII does this splendidly.

You missed the part where.....all the story telling in the game is great. It just forgets to explain one little thing, WHY SHOULD HAWKE CARE. We get that he has a lot of emo things happen to him, but emo sad face type story telling doesn't really work as a plot device unless you are playing Twilight the RPG. This isn't some daytime soap opera, it's a video game, the majority of their audience are synical, and for the most part, males. While some might go for that sort of mellodrama, the majority are just going to be turned off by it. Sad things happening aside, can you tell me any reason at all why the story kept focus or more importantly why Hawke would care about that big decision at the end? There wasn't any, he was just there and the only neutral party wasn't there to decide, so they just picked a random noble? That's what it felt like. It wasn't a lack of focus, it was a complete lack of connecting the main character to the plot of the story. It's writing 101. If the plot moves along with no connection to your only window to the world, it's like you are standing on a street corner and a car flies by. You may notice a few details and thing about it when it's there, but if it goes 10 miles away and gets into an accident, you don't care because it's out of sight and out of mind. That's what the story felt like at the end, it left the main character behind so you heard about all the crazy stuff that happened to the car, but you didn't see it, it's not your car, and you weren't involved. How much are you really going to care about that car?

Did you miss the part where Flemeth basically tells her to embrace destiny? On Sundermount in Act I?

Flemeth: We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment...and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap.

Hawke is acting on Flemeth's advice.

Dude, one line doesn't connect a character to the story. The whole experience was just lacking in any sort of emotional depth or even good storytelling elements in terms of the mage/templar war. The story in Act 2 worked out well and thought that was the highlight of the game. Just the last Act has no connection to Hawke. It's just a random series of events where depending a few people you don't hardly remember come back to do some stuff then 'oh hey we can't settle this debate so we want you to decide'. He has no reason to care, and if he's a mage, he even has less reason to want to decide. It's a terrble set up to that big decision, flemeth making some off comment 'things are changing' great I knew that already, that doesn't mean Hawke should care what she thinks or what he's doing for her. I got what they wanted to do, they just forgot to actually get the player feeling attached to what was going on storywise which is a glaring flaw in a Bioware game since that usually is what they do best.

[DreGregoire]

Reinveil wrote...

People keep citing this "rise to power", even claiming that it's evidence of character development or the focus of the story.  And yet this supposed "rise" only actually occurs in-between each act in a cutscene, and basically only because Varric says it did.  You don't actually see or control Hawke as he/she sells the idol (which would of course negate the flimsy "plot twist" at the end), you don't participate in regaining his/her mother's home; it all just happens "off camera", so to speak. 

Yeah umm Hawke only has the idol for as long as it takes to pick it up and pass it on the Varric who then passes it on to his brother, who in turn sells most of it. Hawke has no other contact with the idol until much later when it's used by another.

The deep roads is a bid to gain wealth to procure the means by which to the Amells/Hawkes could improve their lives. It would have been nice to be able to play some of that scenerio though. Waiting for days on end to be seen by the Viscount might not have been fun but the actual letters and exchanges would have been great.

A huge party to celebrate Hawkes success would have been nice. Personally I like the blanks because I can imagine those events the way I want them to happen.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 mars 2011 - 09:31 .

[Reinveil]

Addai67 wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

CaolIla wrote...

Just one comment to sum it up: The most important rule for movies and games is "Show, don't tell" and with this game I get the feeling that nearly everything that could be interesting isn't seen but told, like the first year in Kirkwall, daily problems between mages and templars and the problems between the qunari and kirkwall.

This, this, this.  Foolsfolly very eloquently covered my other gripes with the game's story, and this is the other glaring one.  People keep citing this "rise to power", even claiming that it's evidence of character development or the focus of the story.  And yet this supposed "rise" only actually occurs in-between each act in a cutscene, and basically only because Varric says it did.  You don't actually see or control Hawke as he/she sells the idol (which would of course negate the flimsy "plot twist" at the end), you don't participate in regaining his/her mother's home; it all just happens "off camera", so to speak.  One minute you're a refugee, and literally a minute later you're high society.  Before you become Champion at the close of act 2, you're an errand boy/girl.  After you become Champion, you're...an errand boy/girl, but with a fancier title.  Your various interactions with the people you're supposed to be having this huge impact on change very little.  Really, if that's what the game is supposed to be about, it could not have been executed in a more half-assed fashion.

As somebody else pointed out, the fact that people are even discussing what the plot actually is means Bioware failed.  Also, plot=/=theme.

So you wanted to follow Hawke's exciting adventures of wading through the land registry office to get the estate back?  I'm glad Gaider's in charge of the writing and not you.

No, I wanted the much-touted "rise to power" to feature a little more heavily than in a pair of minute-long cutscenes.  But hey, if needlessly being rude when I was trying to offer a civil critique helps you remain convinced it's a good game, more power to you. 

And come to think of it, that DOES sound more exciting than the first and third acts.

Modifié par Reinveil, 29 mars 2011 - 10:30 .

[Addai]

scpulley wrote...
Dude, one line doesn't connect a character to the story. The whole experience was just lacking in any sort of emotional depth or even good storytelling elements in terms of the mage/templar war. The story in Act 2 worked out well and thought that was the highlight of the game. Just the last Act has no connection to Hawke. It's just a random series of events where depending a few people you don't hardly remember come back to do some stuff then 'oh hey we can't settle this debate so we want you to decide'. He has no reason to care, and if he's a mage, he even has less reason to want to decide. It's a terrble set up to that big decision, flemeth making some off comment 'things are changing' great I knew that already, that doesn't mean Hawke should care what she thinks or what he's doing for her. I got what they wanted to do, they just forgot to actually get the player feeling attached to what was going on storywise which is a glaring flaw in a Bioware game since that usually is what they do best.

Funny, I hear the same argument in the forums about Origins.  "I don't like the Wardens, I don't want to be a Warden, I want my character to go to Orlais and forget Ferelden, why should I decide the ruler of Ferelden."  Because those are the parameters of the story.  You can go off on a pirate cruise with Isabela after the story is done, but in this story you're champion of Kirkwall left to deal with a growing mage-templar crisis which does affect you because your family has magic in its line and your whole life has been shaped by the mage-Chantry divide.  If the writers held your hand any more to show you why that should be important to your PC, it wouldn't be a roleplaying game at all.

[Reinveil]

DreGregoire wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

People keep citing this "rise to power", even claiming that it's evidence of character development or the focus of the story.  And yet this supposed "rise" only actually occurs in-between each act in a cutscene, and basically only because Varric says it did.  You don't actually see or control Hawke as he/she sells the idol (which would of course negate the flimsy "plot twist" at the end), you don't participate in regaining his/her mother's home; it all just happens "off camera", so to speak. 

Yeah umm Hawke only has the idol for as long as it takes to pick it up and pass it on the Varric who then passes it on to his brother, who in turn sells most of it. Hawke has no other contact with the idol until much later when it's used by another.

The deep roads is a bid to gain wealth to procure the means by which to the Amells/Hawkes could improve their lives. It would have been nice to be able to play some of that scenerio though. Waiting for days on end to be seen by the Viscount might not have been fun but the actual letters and exchanges would have been great.

A huge party to celebrate Hawkes success would have been nice. Personally I like the blanks because I can imagine those events the way I want them to happen.

Well they couldn't really go into detail regarding the idol, or the "twist" at the end with Meredith wouldn't be so shocking.  Well, shocking when you realize the "plot" has been brought full circle with a deus ex machina you dealt with for a combined half hour during the course of the game.  One that's never adequately explained or developed.  But I kinda doubt that's what they were going for.

And while I appreciate your willingness to use your imagination to fill in the blanks, please understand that from the perspective of someone that feels the game was poorly written compared to past Bioware games, that appears to be an excuse or a cop-out.  The game was advertised and hyped as taking place over a decade's time, not "a few months and you fill in the rest".  Kirkwall and it's citizens are so static, the only reason you'd know time passes at all is because the narrator says it does.

[Lithuasil]

While I agree that a little more change (so the merchants on the market haven't moved for seven years?) would have been nice, having those breaks inbetween is imho a lot better, then having everything happen within a few month of time.
We can assume (without the game forcing past time activities on us), that Hawke actually gets to live, like persons do, rather then playing the plotfix for every problem in the entire world, which all conveniently happen around the same time. Hawke lives in Kirkwall for a decade, and we get to watch, when stuff actually happens. Filling those gaps would have been possible, with a number of nonviolent activities, and everyday dialogue with the companions, but then you'd build a few entirely new mechanics, and half the players would ****, because watching hawke visit the mine or go fishing is totally not epic enough.

[ZombiePowered]

Curlain wrote...
As for Meredith and Orisinio, I just have to agree with Foolsfolly, it would have been far better if they had been given more depth as characters and hadn't (given the story) been pushed by possession by either idol or spirit (in the case of Anders) to do their actions, but were rather complex characters with understandable rationales (such as Loghain). It was rather sad to see the final enemy being the villain from many more generic 'save the world' stories particularly as the story wasn't a 'save the world' plot. The Arshok and Sister Petrice were actually allot more compelling then Orisinio and Meredith (or even Anders to an extent), it's rather a shame the game didn't expand on the story of Act 2 and those to characters instead.

You cite Loghain as someone with an understandable rationale, but he was the most confusing character in Origins. His motivations made sense, but the way he acted upon those motivations was nothing short of insane. He abandoned Cailan at Ostagar because he believed the Darkspawn couldn't be defeated, but then claimed he could gather the armies of Ferelden together to defeat the Blight. He did loads of terrible things (poisoning Eamon, selling elves into slavery, letting Cailan and half the army be slaughtered as Ostagar for no reason), and we were expected to believe he was a sane, rational man because he did it all to save Ferelden, and the really bad things he did were all a result of Howe's influence? And then, on top of that, he yielded once you beat him in single combat, and said "man, I haven't been whupped like that since Maric, I was wrong about you and you are capable of saving Ferelden", what kind of basis is that to judge generalship and courage on? And you can't forget that if you don't kill him, he just 'sobers up' and is a reasonable man who explains his actions to you and follows your orders. Loghain is one giant stain of character inconsistency and nonsensical actions. I liked him as a villain, but when Bioware suddenly tried to portray him as anything but the insane power-mongering warlord that he was, it was just unbelievable. Please, if you are going to accuse characters of being unbelievable, don't use one of the most agregious examples of unbelievable character inconsistency, especially in an attempt to insinuate the game's predecessor did things better.

But yes, I would've liked to have been introduced to them earlier. They are interesting characters, and I really would've liked to see them before they were fundamentally at each other's throats, and especially before Meredith went insane under the influence of the lyrium idol. It would've added a further layer of depth to the development of the Mage vs Templar issue.