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[Medhia Nox]

The Kirkwall Killer should have been the main plot of the game - get rid of this Chantry, Anders, and big war foolishness. People 'claim' they want a down to earth story - that's the one I would have told.

Chapter 1: A day in Lothering - signs and portents - the fall of king Cailin - refugees - Lothering destroyed - flight from the Darkspawn - sacrifices (the choice between losing an ally or some "advantage" in Kirkwall) - and flight. Cover Bethany, Carver, Wesley, Aveline, and Leandra. Make it clear that going to Kirkwall and contacting your uncle is "the goal".

Chapter 2: Refugee - gaining entry - servitude - life at the bottom - secrets of the families past - ambition - making allies - rise to power. This is where you first come in contact with the terrible Kirkwall killer - his "reign of terror" is causing strife between the Templars and Mages because his acts are clearly "occult". However - this whole big "UBER BATTLE FIGHT!" will never happen.

You introduce new characters - Varric, Fenris, Merryl, Donnic, Cullen, Sebastian (remove Anders entirely). Develop characters that have been with you from Chapter 1. Cut out ALL useless quests - except for character development for Hawke and characters. This could even include starting a family.

Chapter 3: Develop your connections with your friends. Have their quests come to dramatic "endings" based on your assistance. Some leave having their quests concluded. Have more family time with the siblings, the mother, and perhaps the LI (now married potentially) and even a "twins" - forging an even deeper connection with your siblings.

The Kirkwall killer case comes to a head with "one" of your family members disappearing. A brutal quest through the streets of Kirkwall that challenges many of the contacts you made through Chapter 2 and beginning of 3 - some you'll lose - some will grow closer - none would be unaffected.

The conclusion is the fate of the Kirkwall Killer - your family member - and whether the madness consuming the Chantry/Templars and the Mages subsides or ignites.

====

People really do want epic - they want big 'splosions and world altering events. I would have been insanely happy about the story I just detailed. All about character - all about Hawke - and the ending doesn't blow up the world. It's just the story of a man, his friends and family, and his life (or woman).

[Reinveil]

Lithuasil wrote...

While I agree that a little more change (so the merchants on the market haven't moved for seven years?) would have been nice, having those breaks inbetween is imho a lot better, then having everything happen within a few month of time.
We can assume (without the game forcing past time activities on us), that Hawke actually gets to live, like persons do, rather then playing the plotfix for every problem in the entire world, which all conveniently happen around the same time. Hawke lives in Kirkwall for a decade, and we get to watch, when stuff actually happens. Filling those gaps would have been possible, with a number of nonviolent activities, and everyday dialogue with the companions, but then you'd build a few entirely new mechanics, and half the players would ****, because watching hawke visit the mine or go fishing is totally not epic enough.

You could assume that.  Or that it's a somewhat dishonest means of selling DLC, which is the more likely scenario.  And I only say "dishonest" because the game's timeframe was hyped quite a bit before it came out, and never with a disclaimer that read: * Entire decade's worth of story sold seperately.

I've no issue with worthwhile DLC (I'm just about to jump back into Shadow Broker).

It's good to know that not every defender of this game is blind to it's faults and can engage in intelligent discourse without getting bent out of shape over it, btw.  I wish more users on either side of the issue would follow your example.

Modifié par Reinveil, 29 mars 2011 - 10:53 .

[Lithuasil]

Reinveil wrote...
You could assume that. Or that it's a somewhat dishonest means of selling DLC, which is the more likely scenario. And I only say "dishonest" because the game's timeframe was hyped quite a bit before it came out, and never with a disclaimer that read: * Entire's decade's worth of story sold seperately.

I've no issue with worthwhile DLC (I'm just about to jump back into Shadow Broker).

It's good to know that not every defender of this game is blind to it's faults and can engage in intelligent discourse without getting bent out of shape over it, btw. I wish more users on either side of the issue would follow your example.

I actually didn't think about those gaps as room for dlc. If that indeed happens, that's actually a very valid point to get angry. Problem is, for every post on constructive criticism, there's five posts labeling the series dead, and DA2 the worst game ever made, often enough for the wrong reasons even. Which (much to my own annoyance, and much like Knight Commander Soul edge) forces me to take a side I might not totally agree with, at times.

@Medhia Nox
Interesting line of thought actually. But people complain about the lack of epicness as it is, world war and magic nukes included. Imagine the whole game was about finding one murderer :|

[Medhia Nox]

@Lithuasil - I feel that's why it "lacks focus"

It tries to be "down to earth" and "sweeping epic" - I feel it fails are both. It should have just chosen one - and a story totally about the Kirkwall Killer would have been great I believe.

[Reinveil]

Lithuasil wrote...

Interesting line of thought actually. But people complain about the lack of epicness as it is, world war and magic nukes included. Imagine the whole game was about finding one murderer :|

If done well, I would quite enjoy something like that.

[Lithuasil]

The story is about a down-to-earth person, caught up in sweeping epic events, and succeeds at both (imho). Now, the execution of said story, that's a different thing. A brilliant novel, written on butcher paper is dam hard to read, but you need to blame the guys who printed it, not the guys who wrote it.

Which is kind of my biggest bother, because I genuinely fear they might abandon the great track
they're on, story wise, when the games flaws are entirely seated in lackluster gameplay, and more importantly, the massive gap between both.

[Lithuasil]

@Reinveil
So would I - but the three of us don't purchase enough games to warrant being catered for. (which I find rather unfortunate at times)

[Foolsfolly]

Lithuasil wrote...

The problem is, we have an excellent writing staff, and a dev team with way too much to do, in way too little time. So it ends up being *here, have some codex entries, with all the stuff that would've been in the game, if we had another 18 month to make it*

I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.

The idea of the game isn't a bad one, it's actually quite great. It just was present in such a slapdash way. Had they had more time....

And to DreGregoire, of course the plot is the Mage/Templar fight. Go to page one of the thread and look for my first post. I don't want to take the conversation backwards but I really see no argument that the plot isn't what the third act and the climax of the game revolves around.

[FubarCFSnafu]

I just wished they improved the plot more or quests, I mean here are some possiblities:

I though the main plot idea was a good idea. However, the story seemd to be a bit hollow and full of holes which left your story and your companions a bit hollow. This is especially true after supposedly knowing them for 10 years.

Hawke's Family:
I am not sure what our history was or of my background. We are running from Ferelden (Lothering) but I am not sureif I was a farmer, merchant, etc. It may be possible that I missed this, but it is hard to pin down. This could have been done so much better then what we received. You do get some bits and drabs through some conversation though.

1. Finding out the business that the Hawkes used to do. This could have been tied to the Bone Pit whose owner isHubert. A sub-plot could be getting it back either civilly (buyng it out or partnering) or underhanded (killing himor forcing hm to sell.

2. Going into the basement of the Hawke Estate: This was a good start but there was not much else to be found, it would have been nice to find other things of the past other than a portrait. The slavers used it, then there could have been secret rooms built into it for the use of slaves, etc. This would allow further explorations or other quests to find out the family history since apparently they live in Kirkwall.


3. Leandra. As you are aware of what happens to her, there is not much to go on with your character's mother. This could have been explored alot more and opened new insight in regards to your family. After you come back, she is now in the Hawke estate, saying a few things, but not much else. How about a quest to find a a possible husband for your mom. Your companions could have even helped, by keeping any eye out for one during their travels and they could talk to you about in a conversation cut scene. Picture each of the personalities involved, Aveline, Fenris, Merill, it could ahve provided foe some humorous moments. Afterwards, a wedding could take place where it would allow thecompanions to talk to one another during the reception and have the character dance or flirt during this time. Again, it allows immersion and story telling. The plot could still be followed and allow what happens to her in the end, but it would have been even more of an impact because you could now connect with her.

The Bone Pit:
This could ahve been a good jumping off point to provide some solid quests and reasoning behind it. Clearing the area of bandits, establishing a supply route, clearing out the monsters. And guess what, you now have a meaningful reason to go there on quests because you now have a motive to do so. You can also receive income from it once this has been done. You could receive several letters from Hubert with money in it.
This could also be taken a step further, you get it from Hubert, you now have a say on the merchant's guild because this mine supplies Kirkwall (with what, I ahve no idea what they are mining though). Now oyu ahve a further stake in Kirkwall and some quests or interaction can be done in regards to this, you can hire the Ferelden's this was touched upon, but nothing else was really done with it, instead it was left flat and empty. I mean, you could have a mining town grow around it where you ahve to protect it from bandits/darkspawn in another act or year.

Character Growth:
There isn't any other than by saying you are a noble with an estate or champion after Act II. How about the character eanring his nobility and be knighted in a ceremony after doing important work, such as the following:

1. Mage: Creating a new magic item that helps the city somehow, you ahve to do quests and move up the ranks next to the First Enchanter and the city recognizes this. Or you help try yo keep the peace by rooting out Blood Mages and abominations, finding lost texts of magic in the undercity when it was part of Tevinter. Create a new office in the Circle called First Artificer or something. Once completed you could have Merill or Anders could assist you or be your second in command. Afterwards You are part of a cermeony where you are recognized for your efforts. Again, allows for more party interaction. After a few years the office becomes larger and more people work there. this would pit you against Meredith and the Templars.

2. Warrior: You do work for the guards and Aveline or purchase yourself a comission in the Guards (this was done in Medieval times) and you use your party to do this. Such sub-plots could be the clearing of bandits of supply routes to Kirkwall. Creating a fort to protect the cleared area, howrever, this would involve speaking to the Dalish, finding a suitable site, creating a supply route, exploring/mapping the area, fend it off from attack. You can rise through the ranks and be knighted in a ceremony attended by your friends. Fenris and Aveline could take over the command of the new fort. After a few years, it becomes bigger and better. Again, allows for more party interaction. This could pit you agianst the Seneschal.

3. Rogue: You can find out a note in your basement which leads to a slaver guild within the city, you can fight totake it over or destroy it, if you take it over, you can get added income from it, but now you have to contend with your companions who are against slavery. This would allow for interesting dialog or once it is destroyed you then have to ake out other rival gangs and become the spymater of Kirkwall. Isabella and Varric could take this over.

Companions:
There are some that are done well, but again, you are suppsoed to be friends for seven years and not much is actually known about them.

1. Aveline was done well enough, but it was not really tied to anything, by making her a part of you character growth, it could be taken to a new level.

2. Merill: Other than the mirror and some dialog not much else is found, you can romance her but if this si someone you cared about, how about embarking on another quest to find out more about her such as finding out about her family.

As you can see much could have been added to tie everything together but unformatuntely this was not done. These were just some ideas I ahd in my head for about an hour and decided to write them down. I am not saying this is the best but if I could ahve come up with these ideas, surely DA2 could ahve had something similar. In addition, it would allow a better flow of meaningful quests that make sense to do instead of the current ones.

[Foolsfolly]

AlexXIV wrote...

The game loses focus at the end of Act1.

Simply when Hawke comes to Kirkwall as a refugee his/her motivation is survival and protecting the family. Hawke succeeds to make a fortune, and at the same time loses all of the family. That's the end.

What comes now is a forced story plot that never sufficiently explains why things are the way they are. For some reason the Viscount burdens Hawke with dealing with the Qunari. Whether Hawke likes them or not, respects them or not, it's Hawke's problem. Only reason I can see is that the game demands Hawke to be the Champion which requires to end the Qunari thread.

At this point Hawke has made a fortune and lost the family, so what's the motivation? To be a hero? Why? People claim DA2 is more about  a 'normal' person rather than the Hero of Ferelden who's purpose in life was to end the blight and kill darkspawn. So why would Hawke be bothered to help out the Viscount or the city guards or whoever?

In Act3 it gets even worse. People come to Hawke for help because he/she is the 'Champion'. Obviously being the Champion means to help everyone and their mom to fix their problems. And in the end take part in the templar vs. mages conflict even though Hawke may not be either templar nor mage, and may have lost the last sibling by now. So what's the point?

Sorry but 'solving problems' doesn't qualify as focus. That's basically what every game out there is about. Thing is you don't understand why Hawke is getting involved in so many things that wouldn't be his/her business. So is Hawke the hero type or the normal type?

The difference between a good story and DA2 is that in a good story you are not so obviously forced on the main story without much explanation. In a good story the characters do what makes sense and not what they need to do to push the story forward. The only motivation after Act1 is there because it is a game, and people are used to go from quest to quest until all are solved and then on to the next Chapter. But what is Hawke's motivation to risk his/her life after Hawke is rich and lost the family? There is just alot to be lost and nothing to be gained.

Just look at the companion quests. Why is Hawke helping everyone? What does Hawke gain? Companions for other errands for other people? At the end of Act2 Hawke is the Champion, Kirkwall nobility and spent the last 4 years to solve everyone's problem, but of course that isn't enough to be fit for Viscount or any position of true power. Only the 'Champion' title which basically means that Hawke must help everyone some more. Well thanks, as a reward for helping everyone Hawke gets a title that requires him/her to help more?

Sorry, but I have never played a game that had so little common sense and logic in their story. If Bioware had in mind to make a 'more realistc' character than the Hero of Ferelden, then they only proved that they have no clue how it is to be done.

Quoting this for truth.

And again the story's not a personal story about Hawke. The whole 'it's personal' arugment seems to be PR by the defenders of the game. Hawke has no motivation, no quest that Hawke feels strongly for, and the game strips away all the family members too early. Once they're gone Hawke becomes this uninteresting character with no stake in the larger plot.

And if Hawke's a mage, then there is a personal stake...but the game fails to recongize your class (and in a game where being a mage is the whole point). Meredith just does an empty threat.

Although, if Carver was a Templar and you get him to side with you they have great dialogue for that scene. But the game has great dialogue all throughout the problem is the lack of motivation, plot, and how the major players of the game are shallow and unexplored characters controlled by plot devices. The dialogue's great.

[Lithuasil]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Although, if Carver was a Templar and you get him to side with you they have great dialogue for that scene.

What they should have done, is put mage-hawke in the gallows. With Carver as a templar. There's literally no better opportunity to develop the sibling relationship they come from, imaginable. (and it'd have saved me the trouble of writing it up myself)
Other then that, I find the "this is my home now, I have nowhere else to go, so I want to protect this city" line of thought pretty acceptable though.

[Foolsfolly]

Lithuasil wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Although, if Carver was a Templar and you get him to side with you they have great dialogue for that scene.

What they should have done, is put mage-hawke in the gallows. With Carver as a templar. There's literally no better opportunity to develop the sibling relationship they come from, imaginable. (and it'd have saved me the trouble of writing it up myself)
Other then that, I find the "this is my home now, I have nowhere else to go, so I want to protect this city" line of thought pretty acceptable though.

I agree. I fully agree.

The whole family is a big wasted opprotunity. You had a mage sister and an anti-mage brother, that's loads of tension and potential and one of them is axed for no reason after they hit level 2. Your mom stops whining about the death of her child being Hawke's/Her fault and might actually start living again when she's killed and turned into a Bride for Dr. Frankenstein. And your last remaining sibling is taken from you regardless of your actions at the end of Act 1 only to get two cameos afterward and no real development.

Wasteful. You had two siblings each one on a different side of the big plot decision and both of them can be dead years before Hawke has to choose.

[Lithuasil]

To be fair, I can see *why* they took the siblings away. Personally, if I was in charge of the game, I'd have them taken pretty early on (how about a hidden counter on bethanys magic, once it rises too high she gets taken by templars, carver blames you, joins templars to protect her, where you failed - malcom is the one that sacrifices himself to get rid of the ogre). And then have the ability to visit them, and have them matter to the plot.

But still, as playable companions they needed to be removed pretty early on - why would you ever want to go adventuring with some random dude you picked up on the street, when you can have your bro and sis with you?

[Morroian]

Lithuasil wrote...

I actually didn't think about those gaps as room for dlc. If that indeed happens, that's actually a very valid point to get angry.

I don't see why. Unless  you have unrealistic expectations of the length of the game, a game covering 10 years is always going to have gaps that can be filled with dlc.

[Lithuasil]

Where I come from, dlc is supposed to add things, not fill holes in the original game. If they released dlc that gave the warden a motivation to do what she does, or that would fix the mess of an third act - that wouldn't be dlc, it'd be patches

Seriously though - the gaps work as they are, because we can assume nothing interesting happens. If it does, that should have been in the game in the first place.

[Foolsfolly]

But still, as playable companions they needed to be removed pretty early on - why would you ever want to go adventuring with some random dude you picked up on the street, when you can have your bro and sis with you?

Debatable. I'd end up leaving Carver behind most of the time and Bethany's just not a healer like Anders is. At worst I'd spec Merrill and Bethany as opposites and switch them out whenever I need the other's kind of magic.

[Reinveil]

Morroian wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

I actually didn't think about those gaps as room for dlc. If that indeed happens, that's actually a very valid point to get angry.

I don't see why. Unless  you have unrealistic expectations of the length of the game, a game covering 10 years is always going to have gaps that can be filled with dlc.

Because the gaps constitute a vast majority of the time that's passed.  Why even bother with this concept or make such a big deal about it if it's implemented so poorly?  It just gives the impression that the game is unfinished, and I don't appreciate having to fill in the blanks when I've already given them 60 dollars.

Hell, Fable III did a better job portraying a living, breathing city that changes with time with Bowerstone than Dragon Age II did with Kirkwall, and the entire game takes place there.  Bowerstone is one of many locations you visit in Fable III (none of them repeated, I might add).  And unlike Dragon Age II, the choices you make actually do carry weight and influence the way people interact with you, from main characters all the way down to the most insignificant of NPCs.

I never thought in a million years I'd say a design or gameplay element of a Bioware game was outdone by freaking Peter Molyneux, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

Modifié par Reinveil, 30 mars 2011 - 01:23 .

[Lithuasil]

At no point, the game was anywhere near challenging enough to warrant choosing who's effective over who I like. The game definitely aims to engage you to your siblings, and the better it is at this, the more likely people are to bring along their sibling(s), rather then some pirate they picked up in a bar. They should have been more involved in the story, I totally agree, but as npcs, not as companions. (unless the game catered specifically for that, leaving you and your siblings as permanent party members, where everyone else is an npc and joins your party temporarily, for quests they have business being on - that would've worked too)

[Reinveil]

Lithuasil wrote...

At no point, the game was anywhere near challenging enough to warrant choosing who's effective over who I like. The game definitely aims to engage you to your siblings, and the better it is at this, the more likely people are to bring along their sibling(s), rather then some pirate they picked up in a bar. They should have been more involved in the story, I totally agree, but as npcs, not as companions. (unless the game catered specifically for that, leaving you and your siblings as permanent party members, where everyone else is an npc and joins your party temporarily, for quests they have business being on - that would've worked too)

Agreed.  The family element seems to fall off once you start doing fetch quests in act 1, so much so that by the time everything goes down with Hawke's mother in act 2, it had very little impact on me.  None of them are fleshed out particularly well, and with the exception of Bethany, are really even that likable.  A missed opportunity, to be sure.

[Statulos]

Lithuasil wrote...

The story is about a down-to-earth person, caught up in sweeping epic events, and succeeds at both (imho). Now, the execution of said story, that's a different thing. A brilliant novel, written on butcher paper is dam hard to read, but you need to blame the guys who printed it, not the guys who wrote it.

Which is kind of my biggest bother, because I genuinely fear they might abandon the great track
they're on, story wise, when the games flaws are entirely seated in lackluster gameplay, and more importantly, the massive gap between both.

I love tragedy: from Sophocles to Sartre, I really appreciate the "doomed from the beggining" stories. However, the problem is that DA2 is not that nor an epic story. It gives you a false sense that you´re important and an a false epic where you´re not capable of changing a lot.

Sometimes, the middle ground is not the answer.

[Lithuasil]

Upon reflection, having only your siblings for permanent companions, and everyone else track along temporarily, depending on the quest, and then, at the end of act two, having all three of you go to the gallows, would have been much, much better

[Foolsfolly]

At no point, the game was anywhere near challenging enough to warrant choosing who's effective over who I like.

True, but I like getting groups that work well together in combat. I like switching up members and listening to them talk and all. I mean if it really came down to people I liked then I'd never have change from having Varric, Aveline, and Merrill on my team.

Upon reflection, having only your siblings for permanent companions, and everyone else track along temporarily, depending on the quest, and then, at the end of act two, having all three of you go to the gallows, would have been much, much better

Except there's no reason for a Warrior/Rogue Hawke to go to the Gallows. And I like having a group of companions to choose from. Just would have been nice if the siblings weren't temporary. They're position in the overall story would have added depth to your choice later, do you side with Bethany or Carver...can you talk the other one to joining with you out of sake of family? That would have been nice.

[Morroian]

Lithuasil wrote...

Where I come from, dlc is supposed to add things, not fill holes in the original game. If they released dlc that gave the warden a motivation to do what she does, or that would fix the mess of an third act - that wouldn't be dlc, it'd be patches

Seriously though - the gaps work as they are, because we can assume nothing interesting happens. If it does, that should have been in the game in the first place.

If its about the main stories perhaps, but we have Sebastian and he is extraneous. I don't see why they would do DLC that advances the main plots. Even if they aren't well done they are complete within the game IMHO.

[Lithuasil]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Except there's no reason for a Warrior/Rogue Hawke to go to the Gallows. And I like having a group of companions to choose from. Just would have been nice if the siblings weren't temporary. They're position in the overall story would have added depth to your choice later, do you side with Bethany or Carver...can you talk the other one to joining with you out of sake of family? That would have been nice.

There actually is if you do it right - joining the templars not out of spite, but to protect your sibling. (Though admittedly, I personally regard apostate hawke canon).
And I'm not quite sure about having a whole group to choose from - if the game specifically catered for it, there'd be great immersive potential, if for each quest you could only bring characters that have business being there, and involve those in the quests at hand.

[Morroian]

Reinveil wrote...

Because the gaps constitute a vast majority of the time that's passed.  Why even bother with this concept or make such a big deal about it if it's implemented so poorly?  It just gives the impression that the game is unfinished, and I don't appreciate having to fill in the blanks when I've already given them 60 dollars.

 
The game feels complete to me even if the implementation is flawed, Like someone said earlier having all these events occur in a few months would be more unrealistic and IMHO if they spread the events over other years within the 7 year period that the main action covers it would end up being too disjointed. The biggest issue related to this is not giving the player the feel that time has passed in the intervals especially between Acts 2 and 3. I don't see why the dlc shouldn't be other events that Hawke has participated in during the period that are relatively extraneous to the main plots. 

Reinveil wrote...

I never thought in a million years I'd say a design or gameplay element of a Bioware game was outdone by freaking Peter Molyneux, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

I haven't played the Fable games but it should be remembered that Molyneux was the brains behind the great series of games Bullfrog did. I'd love another Magic Carpet and Syndicate.