41 réponses à ce sujet

[Ingu]

Okay, Anders/Hawke started a war, that much has been established. To some extent, the whys and hows and 'whether it should've's don't really matter any more, because it's happened, so inevitably, it will come to come to an eventual end.

What I'm curious about is the consequences, which people seem to generally agree won't be pretty.

In the short term:
1. There's definitely general chaos  (Chantry on the brink of collapse, according to Varric)
2. Civilian lives will be lost in the crossfire (as in all wars)
3. People being forced to take drastic measures (to stay alive...)
     - in this sense I can't help but think that more mages are just going to turn to fade demons/spirits and blood magic because they don't have much of a choice.
4. People are forced to pick sides (for survival)
5. Chaos, death, destruction


In the mid-term, wars are ones of stamina, how long one side will last over the other, aside from raw military power, what else will influence the outcome?
1. Raw military might (templars stronger or mages stronger? guerilla warfare? strategy/recruits?)
1.1 Personally I think this is a huge unknown, in the past, events such as these in Thedas (and even in history) seem to just depend on one person (the Warden) to come and turn the tide - that is, when there's actually a deadlock. This could be where our Hawke's importance will finally emerge. He may decide how the world is changed.
1.2 How is the fighting happening? I'm invisioning resistance movements and guerilla warfare after initial explosions of conflict around circles as mages flee,
1.3 Noted that the mages revolt is one against the Chantry, which is damn influential all across Thedas, what sort of impact will this have?
1.4 Nations. Alistair, if king, seem to sympathise with mages, how will the stance of different countries - Tevinter, Ferelden, Orlais, impact events?

2. Public opinion
2.1 Which in this case seem to be general fear of mages, if Anders is what we go by. Or general dissatisfaction as to the state the mages are in.
2.2 Either direction can have a great influence on the power of either side when it comes to support, resources, and recruits.
2.2.1 Mages will not be alone as there will be warriors and rogues who sympathise (non-mage/pro-mage Hawke for example).
2.2.2 Similarly, if people all think the Templars are in the right, then more people will join the Templar/Chantry's cause...


In all I have the impression that it's quite a evenly matched battle either way, as it obviously continues for years, and the Chantry is nearing collapse from what Varric says at the end/start of DA2. The details of this war will also likely be either glossed over through narration or left up to the third game to address.




So my real question is, what will be the long term impacts of this war (left up to Hawke/Warden/Third protagonist to decide)?

A. An alternate/new Tevinter Imperium (predicted by Fenris)
Support: The real way for there to be any guaranteed 'fairness of government' or 'freedom from opression' is if mages are ruled by mages. Normal humans fear mages for their power, and if left to rule over mages, we get the Chantry/Circle/Templars as we see them now.

The alternative is something like the Dalish clans, mages ruled by mages. Though it appears it also leaves a lot of room for corruption if the balance of powers is imperfect. Arguably, this new self(mage)-governed state will not be as terrible as the Tevinter Imperium is made out to be - mass blood sacrifices for example, slavery for another. Society, for a start, is a lot different... that is, if the Tevinter magisters don't step in and start taking in refugees and try ruling the world again... (Think modern Israel)

B. Complete Mage Freedom (Anders' idealistic world)
This would definitely require state support, and possible a complete 180 of the Chantry's attitude. Think the Enlightenment + civil rights movement - a massive shift/evolution in public opinion/attitude towards mages as a whole. General peace where everyone tolerates each other and any apparant discrimination or abuse is highlighted and judged by all. Considering the medieval society-state of Thedas, this would be quite a challenge without some damn strong public opinion and/or propaganda influence. Guards could be the new templars, so instead of specialist military forces, we just get new guard divisions - like modern police.

C. Return to the old ways, but with definite reform
The old way is not completely rejected, but simply evolves as idealogoies change and new rules are introduced to prevent the same from occuring. This could either mean more, serious suppression (unlikely imo), or more mage freedom. Er... think Protestant Reformation?

Like the Circle is now Hogwarts instead of Prison/Boarding School for Life. There could be a mage representative in the Chantry/Governments, more voice/freedom for all. But the degree of 'templar' oversight would still be present, and the Chantry may still hold significant influence.

D. Other ridiculous? world-changing outcome 
Sandal's prophecy is quite interesting. If something else happens which distracts attention from this mage.templar conflict then... well. Similarly, if everyone in Thedas (or all newborns) suddenly gets magic powers, then the whole war would be automatically resolved. If that happens, despite its awesomeness, I'll be supremely dissapointed.  That's just lazy, then what was the point of DA2 if you're going to end the war as soon as it's started? Maybe it's the war which leads to mass-awakenings of power, lord knows. Maybe the Forgotten One will rear up and end it all.



Personally I think the third is more likely, though I think the whole outcome would make a fantastic third game (since the second game pretty much is missing an entire resolution). Hawke (or someone) could juggle the Chantry's interests (think Leliana/Sebastian), Tevinter interests (it's such a mysterious place), Mage-rebel interests (Anders! Merrill! Bethany!), national interests (Alistair/Anora/Warden, Orlais, Antiva) and even civilian interests, to decide on the future of mages in Thedas. Now that's a game I'd want to play... instead of this thirty-hour origins story, which now I that think about it was pretty much always advertised as such. 'Rise to power' indeed, you neverlet us play when we actually 'have the power'.

Musings aside, what do the rest of you think?

Modifié par Ingu, 28 mars 2011 - 09:28 .

[OldMan91]

Er... think Protestant Reformation?

You mean like the religious wars that spread throughout Europe in the 16th and 17th century?

[Ingu]

OldMan91 wrote...

Er... think Protestant Reformation?

You mean like the religious wars that spread throughout Europe in the 16th and 17th century?

Yes. Essentially people started to disagree with the things traditional Catholicism (in this case, Chantry and Templars) worked and made a new religion of their own which suited their new-world views a lot more. Except in our world it was more the general public, while in Thedas those who were most unhappy were the mages.

In the end Protestants/Catholics agreed to disagree... more or less. But there were changes for Catholicism, and Protestants became an established religion. In Thedas, Chantry changes its ways, but the plight of mages (need for new system) does get established, and an alternative system to the current Circle (the way that it operates at least) is implemented.

It's a messy analogy/metaphor.

[TheLastAwakening]

What of the demands of the Qun?


Edit: of,hmm.
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I think the implications of this war are uncertain. There are certainly legends being born in this age of dragons. 

If I had to guess on the outcome I would certainly go with D, and if asked to be more realistic I would cross out B.

In the long term, I think the end result might certainly be two more polarized opposites regarding both Mages and Templars. Public opinion on this topic I think would differ from race to race and perhaps regions all across Thedas. If the incident at Kirkwall did anything it was that it showed that the Templars could be defied. Now this might or might not mean anything for the Dalish, but if Varric is right and the Templars have abaddoned the Chantry...The Templars hunting mages without the authority of the Chantry in "of" itself is a problem.

Modifié par TheLastAwakening, 28 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[Ealos]

I worry that I can't see any way this won't just make the mage/antimage split more polarised. Basically, Anders has proven all the Merediths and Alriks right, and the Thrasks/Cullens out there are discredited. And now all mages are the enemy, all mages will have to become involved to survive. The winners would end up being homicidal Templars with no compassion for mages, or mages bent on "Justice". Mind you, who controls the Templars? They've "abandoned the Chantry to hunt mages" - the Divine presumably doesn't want war? Do we know how many mages there are out there?

[Ealos]

I worry that I can't see any way this won't just make the mage/antimage split more polarised. Basically, Anders has proven all the Merediths and Alriks right, and the Thrasks/Cullens out there are discredited. And now all mages are the enemy, all mages will have to become involved to survive. The winners would end up being homicidal Templars with no compassion for mages, or mages bent on "Justice". Mind you, who controls the Templars? They've "abandoned the Chantry to hunt mages" - the Divine presumably doesn't want war? Do we know how many mages there are out there?

[Ingu]

Arguably that's just one possibility, do we know for a fact that there isn't much sympathy to mages in Thedas as a whole? I think understanding would be rare and hard to achieve, but do we know that they're really generally feared/hated from the very start?

If they are then it'd be all downhill for their cause, most definitely. = = Unless... everyone turns into mages overnight. THAT would solve things. (I'm looking at you Sandal)

[The Angry One]

Eh if everyone became mages that'd just be more fuel for the fire; Templars would be furious and claim mages have cursed everyone and continue the war. Others might agree and join them.
Ultimately it would probably end up in a Tevinter like world, with the most powerful mages climbing on top and enslaving the rest.

[IanPolaris]

I am going ot go with option D realistically.  What is very important to realize is that the Templars have rejected the Chantry and that removes the one fig-leaf that they once had.  In many places (most notably Kirkwall) the Templars as the military arm of the chantry had become the tail wagging the dog.

Moreover, while I despise what Anders did (and I would have killed him immediately as an abomination anyway had I the option), his basic point is essentially correct and overlooked.  It's not really the Templar's fault that mages are oppressed.  The primary blame belongs to the Chantry who oppresses the Templars nearly as much (by addicting them to Lyrium amoung other things).

I note that in war, the two sides get to know each other quite well and neither likes the Chantry very much at this point....and it's precisely that which has the Chantry Seekers soiling their drawers. 

Ultimately after a lot of bloodshed and animosity on both sides, I actually expect that both will eventually merge.  Magic will be regulated and regulated quite vigorously, but it will be done by an organization that is as much mage as templar....and indeed in this new organization, I could easily see mages and templar-like warriors working together to control and regulate magic for the public good.

In short, both sides breaking away from the Chantry is probably the best thing that could have happened, and I see a somewhat optimistic ending....but a LOT of blood is going to be shed to get there.

JIMHO.

-Polaris

[Ingu]

@ Angry One

Hahahaha true! I can definitely see that happening. Though I'm wondering about Sandal's 'prophecy' and if it will have any real impact on the future games. Bioware is damn cryptic.

Modifié par Ingu, 28 mars 2011 - 11:40 .

[Ingu]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am going ot go with option D realistically.  What is very important to realize is that the Templars have rejected the Chantry and that removes the one fig-leaf that they once had.  In many places (most notably Kirkwall) the Templars as the military arm of the chantry had become the tail wagging the dog.

Moreover, while I despise what Anders did (and I would have killed him immediately as an abomination anyway had I the option), his basic point is essentially correct and overlooked.  It's not really the Templar's fault that mages are oppressed.  The primary blame belongs to the Chantry who oppresses the Templars nearly as much (by addicting them to Lyrium amoung other things).

I note that in war, the two sides get to know each other quite well and neither likes the Chantry very much at this point....and it's precisely that which has the Chantry Seekers soiling their drawers. 

Ultimately after a lot of bloodshed and animosity on both sides, I actually expect that both will eventually merge.  Magic will be regulated and regulated quite vigorously, but it will be done by an organization that is as much mage as templar....and indeed in this new organization, I could easily see mages and templar-like warriors working together to control and regulate magic for the public good.

In short, both sides breaking away from the Chantry is probably the best thing that could have happened, and I see a somewhat optimistic ending....but a LOT of blood is going to be shed to get there.

JIMHO.

-Polaris

Ah, I see, I wasn't quite as clear on the state of templar/chantry relations as I should've been. But I really have doubts as to the extent which the Chantry can and will be shaken. It appears to me that most of Thedas would be quite devout Andrastians... (or is it just my understanding of European history clouding my judgement orz)

Templars and mages... I think I agree with your opinion also. Though extremists will always exist, the two sides will eventually understand each other. There are templars who feel sympathy for the mages and mages who understand the dangers of blood magic/fade demons. But it would take a damn long time for them to see past their prejudices.

What I can really see in the short term is guerilla warfare and major oppositions, and in the long term, heavily regulated, but free, mages. I don't think anything like the circle will be possible again for a long time.

[Foolsfolly]

I honestly do not think the Mages stand a chance with a prolonged war. Public opinion will be against them, the nobles (stewards of the status quo that they always are) will be against them, the Chantry will be against them, and the Templars have gone rogue to take them on.

The mages will be divided among the fraternities of magi and lack a central command. Not to mention that they have no experience in fighting wars, something generals and Knight-Commanders will have a complete advantage over.

Also, apparently if they get stressed they can go Abomination. When facing another army you're going to be stressed, you can't have mages trying to assault or defend against another army go Abomination and tear into each other.

I mean, really, I don't see how this war can benefit them at all. Maybe some other event will happen and the two will need to join forces against a larger threat. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before the mages are put down.

[Ingu]

Hm, I can see this outcome as well...

Are you suggesting the basic genocide of mages? Or an alternate Tevinter. From what I can see abominations have a LOAD of power and can't easily be put down.

Basically, should they gain a central command they would be a more powerful force? And how about the templars? I'm sure not all of them chose to break away from the Chantry...

It's almost like a slave revolution. Huh.

[Halo Quea]

TheLastAwakening wrote...

What of the demands of the Qun?


Edit: of,hmm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the implications of this war are uncertain. There are certainly legends being born in this age of dragons. 

If I had to guess on the outcome I would certainly go with D, and if asked to be more realistic I would cross out B.

In the long term, I think the end result might certainly be two more polarized opposites regarding both Mages and Templars. Public opinion on this topic I think would differ from race to race and perhaps regions all across Thedas. If the incident at Kirkwall did anything it was that it showed that the Templars could be defied. Now this might or might not mean anything for the Dalish, but if Varric is right and the Templars have abaddoned the Chantry...The Templars hunting mages without the authority of the Chantry in "of" itself is a problem.

I disagree, I think we will find that the Chantry is behind it.  Sister Patrice was not a lone wolf in my view, there are probably many like her.   Maybe even the Divine herself approves, she's just not supporting it openly.  This way it can be claimed that the Templars are acting on their own, that they aren't following the Chantry's edict anymore. 

The Templars clearly aren't fighting to force the mages to return to their Circles,  this is like a witch hunt.  Mages will be killed, captured, tortured and murdered.  Their families or anyone harboring mages will suffer the same fate.  The Chantry can't officially support that, but they may be trying to control just how bad it gets, hence the search for Hawke and the living Warden.  

If the Chantry can get the Champion who was at the start of the Templar-Mage War, and the Warden who ended the last Blight to take up it's banner,  then they may believe that they would be capableof bringing the conflict to an end once the mage uprising has been surpressed.  

Anders was right about one thing, there's no way to go back.  The mages are not going to accept anything less than total freedom,  the Chantry will never agree to that.  One side is going to have to have an outright win in order for this to end. 

[Foolsfolly]

I'm not suggesting anything other than the mages have a much harder fight than the templar do. The mages are not generals or battle hardened like the people of Thedas and the Templars are. They lack a central command structure entirely because all the Circles are so far apart and all the fraternities disagree all the time.

It's going to be really tough for the mages, neigh impossible, to win this.

And the game offers us no insight on what a mage victory would hold for the future. What's their plan on civil rights, economics (since the Chantry controlled the most profitable business in the world: lyrium), social reform, or rights of government/nobles?

As far as we've seen, the mages have no leadership, no experience (stuck in a tower your whole life will do that to you), no plans...and yet they're rebelling.

It's going to be hard for mages.

[Ieldra]

Here's a question overlooked so far:

Which role do mages play in general? For what are they needed and appreciated? That will determine public opinion to a big degreee. As I see it, almost any mage can learn a few basic heal spells that can do a lot more than a regular medic. I can see that being a big plus. We don't have a lot of information about what mages can do outside of combat, but manipulating elements must have a lot of useful applications, even more so in the absence of certain types of technology.

And to get to another point: if mages are kept in the Circles, what do they do there? If they're not rebelling, anyway. What's the everyday life of a mage? Again, I can't see the Chantry spend a lot of resources on it all if they weren't useful in some way.

As for the war, mages are at a disadvantage. They can't just recruit more mages, for the supply is limited, and they're starting out as the minority in the first place. To get any kind of fair treatment, they'd need to keep public opinion firmly on their side. To that end, they'll have to deal harshly with any kind of out-of-control behaviour in their own ranks. I see only very few possibilities for this ending well for them.

Here are my long-term projections:

(1) Best possible ending: reformed Circles. Everyone agrees that mages need special training. Training in a Circle is still mandatory, but it is also temporary. The Circles come to be more schools than prisons, and are mostly regulated by their own. Normal "mundane" law would apply to mages' actions, not laws made by a hostile power like the Chantry.

(2) Most likely ending: mass emigration to Tevinter. Arguably it isn't much better to live under the rule of more powerful ruthless mages than to live under the rule of templars, but at least mages are somewhat privileged there and won't be made Tranquil. Maybe there's also some other mage-friendly nation out there whose rulers are expedient enough to offer them protection in return for some services.

(3) Worst-case scenario: attempt to eradicate all magical bloodlines. This would essentially mean the templars and the most radical elements of the Chantry win.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mars 2011 - 12:44 .

[Halo Quea]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm not suggesting anything other than the mages have a much harder fight than the templar do. The mages are not generals or battle hardened like the people of Thedas and the Templars are. They lack a central command structure entirely because all the Circles are so far apart and all the fraternities disagree all the time.

It's going to be really tough for the mages, neigh impossible, to win this.

And the game offers us no insight on what a mage victory would hold for the future. What's their plan on civil rights, economics (since the Chantry controlled the most profitable business in the world: lyrium), social reform, or rights of government/nobles?

As far as we've seen, the mages have no leadership, no experience (stuck in a tower your whole life will do that to you), no plans...and yet they're rebelling.

It's going to be hard for mages.

Well leadership always emerges, even in the most messy rebellions.   But you are absolutely right, if the mages get into an up and down war with the Templars they would lose.   BUT,  if the mages enage in a war of attrition, they could reek havoc against the Templars hroughout all Andraste nations. 

There's already evidence that the Templars have been infiltrated or at least have lost some in their ranks to sympathizers.  The mages COULD win as long as their struggle remains a struggle for freedom.  You know, "we're not the enemy, we're your brothers, sisters, sons and daughters"    If it becomes a campaign of terror and vengence like what Anders did in Kirkwall then they will lose.  

Which is what has me so put off with Anders.  What he did plays right into the hands of Chantry zealots. 

[Halo Quea]

Ieldra2 wrote...



(3) Worst-case scenario: attempt to eradicate all magical bloodlines. This would essentially mean the templars and the most radical elements of the Chantry win.

Oh my..................an Inquisition would be needed for such a solution.   

[MrTijger]

Halo Quea wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...



(3) Worst-case scenario: attempt to eradicate all magical bloodlines. This would essentially mean the templars and the most radical elements of the Chantry win.

Oh my..................an Inquisition would be needed for such a solution.   

Eh, technically they have already got that, more or less, the Seekers are supposedly the watchers of the Templars but are also called in when the Templars lose control of the mages and they're supposedly highly resistant to magic and more than willing to eradicate mages.

[Halo Quea]

MrTijger wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...



(3) Worst-case scenario: attempt to eradicate all magical bloodlines. This would essentially mean the templars and the most radical elements of the Chantry win.

Oh my..................an Inquisition would be needed for such a solution.   

Eh, technically they have already got that, more or less, the Seekers are supposedly the watchers of the Templars but are also called in when the Templars lose control of the mages and they're supposedly highly resistant to magic and more than willing to eradicate mages.

But an Inquisition wouldn't just be about killing mages.  It would be about wiping out WHOLE families with any history of magic in their ancestral line.   Such an event could also be used to kill off political and social rivals, even if NO magic existed in the line.  Entire families could be put to the sword just on accusations alone, even mage sympathizers in the Chantry could be falsely charged.

[White_Buffalo94]

One thing you forgot to mention or rather misunderstood is that the Templars are not on the Chantry's side. Varric says that even the Templars have rebelled.

[White_Buffalo94]

I would like to have the option to establish a sort of triumvirate similar to the Qunari.
There should be a military leader, a societal leader, and a spiritual leader (As much as I dislike the Chantry, people will always have a religious belief on the whole). Each member of the triumvirate has an assistant or what the Dalish call a First I guess that ensures corruption is non-existant or otherwise very difficult to conceal.

Military leader leads the militaries and puts down rebellions and keeps the peace in the designated lands of this new world.

Societal leader leads the economy and keeps up with the demands of the people such as architectural overseeing, civil rights (of sorts), supply-and-demand, etc.

Spiritual leader leads the church and whatnot obviously.

Each branch is in charge of its own and the only way the other two can interfere is if one goes out of control. All three must agree to changes, not a 2/3 vote, but all three. War with a foreign nation must be authorized by the societal branch and war to ensure religious power is not allowed.

Mages are allowed every right that non-mages are granted, including rights to property. Circles will be in place, governed by a 2nd triumvirate per Circle, which may only take mages as children up to a certain amount of time to teach control. Abominations are still executed if they create a hostile environment.

[RobRam10]

I would say that the templars might have a shot on this but mages are powerful I mean they can summon demons so thats a backbone on they're army and they have the Imperium to aid cause I definitely believe that the Imperial Circle didn't rebel since they're the ones on power. But the outcome I believe would be Tevinter gaining power.

[IronWolf1987]

If the cut scene of the templar-mage fight is any indication, then the mages are in for the beating their life. Hell Meredith was gracious enough to give Orsino and his mages time to prepare themselves and come up with a plan, and the best they could come up with was to attempt to block the templar's swords and shields using their soft, pasty mage flesh.

[Benchmark]

Only one outcome is possible to a mage/templar war. Any mages not remaining allied to the Chantry getting completely wiped out by a combined army of Thedas.

Here is an excerpt of a post I made that explains the reasons.

*You can try to make arguments that disagree, but any nation facing this choice would side with whoever most guaranteed the survival of the nation as a whole. Templar's are really good at killing magic user's, they are just normal knights if they are faced with non magic using soldiers. Once the mage/templar conflict is over, they can't contest the army of the nations that helped them. Mage's are good at killing anyone *except* Templar's, help them kill off the Templar's and you just guaranteed they can take your country from you.

Also people tend to forget the fact that no one chooses to be a mage. There are no requirements or tests. It doesn't require you to be moral or socially acclimated. Without a system of control in place like the Circles, it is just as likely to have some random crazed blood mage pop up and destroy a few towns as it is to have some kind healer curing lepers.

Templar's are the opposite. It isn't random. They share a belief in a greater good. They join and survive hardships in order to be able to support those beliefs. It was obvious in DA2 that most of the Templars were very moral and forthright. They showed repeatedly that the average Templar struggled with their own conscience to follow orders from overly oppressive leadership.

Regardless, if you were the leader of a nation, which would you feel safer having around? A controllable group, filled with volunteers that believe in a greater good. Or a group that is made of people with completely random moral character and are uncontrollably powerful?*

As bad as I feel for mages, if they won't submit to a system that allows non-mages to live in security; non-mages will probably make sure they aren't a problem.