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[silver-crescent]

His father was a mage, and so is/was his sister, whom he got along with extremely well, if the f/r bar is to be believed. Both of them were perfectly healthy and never fell prey to demons or whatever even though they were both apostates.

Then you have Anders and Merrill, the first one used his powers to save the lives of tons of people, the second one does do blood magic, but seems perfectly harmless otherwise.

Also, Flemeth, a mage, is the one who made it possible for him to escape Lothering.

So yeah I'm playing as a pro-templar warrior on my second playthrough and honestly I don't see why my Hawke would act this way at all, given his background. Feels like he's just doing it to please Fenris or something.

[theangryllama]

I found the same thing really. Up until the whole mother thing and hostage/kaboom stuff in act 3 your really pushed to be pro mage. I mean theres obviously good templars who want to simply do there job and only step in if a mage goes all demony but the only ones you get introduced to are the ones that want to kill them or make them tranquil for sneezing to loudly (except thrask)

[silver-crescent]

theangryllama wrote...

I found the same thing really. Up until the whole mother thing and hostage/kaboom stuff in act 3 your really pushed to be pro mage. I mean theres obviously good templars who want to simply do there job and only step in if a mage goes all demony but the only ones you get introduced to are the ones that want to kill them or make them tranquil for sneezing to loudly (except thrask)

Yeah, towards the end of act 2 and in act 3 it's like they keep hitting you in the head with the "MAGES R EVILZ" hammer 

It would have been better if both sides of the conflict were represented more homogeneously throughout the whole game I think.

[Vhalkyrie]

I think that really is the point, and how the story is leading you. I think you are meant to sympathize with the mages, then be like WTH with Quentin, and start doubting it. I wasn't truly able to get into the Templar mindset until my second playthrough when I had stronger convictions about it.

However, if you have Bethany, she tells you throughout Act 1 that she sort of wishes she had been in the Circle and not an apostate. She wanted a sense of belonging and being around others like her.

I have always been anti blood mage, and there is plenty of blood mages dancing about in Act 1. I definitely got the sense something was wrong because I ran into way more blood mages and abominations than in Fereldan, and it was only year 1.

It was very OOC for me to be taking Merrill around the city because of her blood magic, that's my main beef.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 12:35 .

[silver-crescent]

That's a good point, but I at least don't think there's anything inherently wrong about bloog magic, as long as it's not used to control people's minds or something. Basically blood is just a different energy source.

But still, my main point is that yes Hawke is given reasons to be pro-templar/anti-mage as the game progresses, he really has no reason to be that way from the get-go, even though the dialogue options are there.

[Vhalkyrie]

If you think blood magic is ok in certain circumstances, then it would be harder to side against them or see they are doing something wrong. My Hawke, however, thinks blood magic is never justified

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 12:58 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

My second mage came up with plenty of reasons. First of all, magic cost her and her siblings a childhood, second she was bloody terrified of her own power and it leading demons to her. Bethany was dead, so she didn't have to worry about her being caught anymore, She was basically laying low by the time they reached Kirkwall simply to appease and protect her mother. She thought the Circle couldn't be any worse than living in a prison of fear of herself and everyone around her.

Might be harder to justify for a non-mage, but for a mage I found it surprisingly easy.

[Knightly_BW]

One of my current playthroughs is with a red response warrior Hawke who don't like/hate mages.

I have two starting points for this character, one is Fenris and other is Carver. (As you don't have him with a warrior his mindset lives on my warrior Hawke)

Reasonings:

- Just like Carver, Emmett Hawke (name of my character btw) thinks he is neglected by his parents because of his mage sibling. Having an apostates in family shaped his life. Always trying to keep a low profile and hiding because of mages in his family.
- He uses mages on party but like Fenris he keeps them on close watch. He knows mages are usefull but you can't trust them fully, especially in later stages of Act 1 after seeing what mages can achieve (blood mage/abomination including missions) his distrust for mages turned into a little paronia.
- He always admired Templars but couldn't join the order because of his father and sister. He knew in his heart he couldn't turn on them. Learned their way during his time on Kirkwall tho' (Templar speciality)
- Because of his early years in a family he did him a great injustice he was a bitter person. After loosing his brother he became more ruthless/merciless while dealing with mages.

So, I found many reasons to make my Hawke hate mages.

[Sabriana]

My mage Hawke blames the weak willed mages who turn to blood-magic and demons for the plight of the other mages. It's their fault that she and her sister (and Dad) had to run and hide most of their lives.

Running into a virtual nest of blood-mages in Kirkwall made her very, very anti-blood-mage. Especially because they seemed to have a collective single mind to kill her and her friends/brother.

[Wulfram]

Outright anti-mage is difficult to justify, but there's no requirement to be anti-circle either. You may still think that - for example - a young mage plagued by dreams of demons would be best off under observation in the circle, even if your sister shouldn't.

[Aelia]

silver-crescent wrote...

theangryllama wrote...

I found the same thing really. Up until the whole mother thing and hostage/kaboom stuff in act 3 your really pushed to be pro mage. I mean theres obviously good templars who want to simply do there job and only step in if a mage goes all demony but the only ones you get introduced to are the ones that want to kill them or make them tranquil for sneezing to loudly (except thrask)

Yeah, towards the end of act 2 and in act 3 it's like they keep hitting you in the head with the "MAGES R EVILZ" hammer 

It would have been better if both sides of the conflict were represented more homogeneously throughout the whole game I think.

This ^

I pretty much always play the mage, and have been sympathetic to their plight since Origins.  My personal philosophy in DA2 was that mages should be allowed to police their own.  But it was almost painful siding with them by the end because it seems that unless the mage was my warden or me playing Hawke, it's inevitable that they WILL go demonic at some point...

In On the Loose I have to kill two of the three escapees (the back stories for both painting them as selfless individuals) after they wig out and kill or attempt to kill their loved ones.  The one I was able to let go was not a shining example what a mage can be.
 
I lied for the circle escapees in Act 1 ony to have Grace in Act 3 go demonic on me after I tell her Meredith has to go.

I resolve to help Merril thinking, fine if she can't handle it, then I honor her wishes (we have to police our own), which instead leads to the death of Marethari and the destruction of Merrill's entire village.

Anders, the spirit healer who maintains a clinic in Darktown, decides to become a terrorist and I have to kill him even though I love him (at which point I was heart sick).

But I stick it out and side with Orsino.  We DEFEAT Meredith's first wave at which point, for reasons I can't really understand, he chooses this moment to dispair and resort to blood magic and Demonic possession <sigh>

I thought the whole point of the Harrowing was to ensure that mages had the internal fortitude to resist these sorts of things.  Apparently, the mages I play are the only ones in Thedas that understand there are fates WORSE than death.

[Kaylord]

Yeah, the story had quite some forced moments, without need. Apparently you are supposed to go the "pro mage" route, and later be confronted with more and more demonic possessed mages.
When I sided with the mages and Orsino finally turned monster, I was thinking "oh ****, the templars were right all the time, this circle is totally blood magic and demon infested!" My only justification was that I wanted to save my sister, along with maybe one or two other innocent mages in the circle. As long as Bethany goes to the circle, I simply cannot chose templar side. Maybe a playthrough with Carver could yield different choices, but then, how is it even possible to be a mage-Hawke in Kirkwall???? (the latter is my biggest gripe about the story)

[Kaylord]

Aelia: What you said, isn´t that the wonderful dark fantasy about this game? I mean, you know you are right, mages should be kept like prisoners whithout any procedural rights. But all the mages in Kirkwall make it almost impossible to proof and stand to your opinion? Do you even feel in the end yourself, that you did the wrong decision, even though it should righfully be the right decision?
IMO this is the greatest element of this game´s story!!! So dark fantastic!

[Aelia]

Kaylord wrote...

Aelia: What you said, isn´t that the wonderful dark fantasy about this game? I mean, you know you are right, mages should be kept like prisoners whithout any procedural rights. But all the mages in Kirkwall make it almost impossible to proof and stand to your opinion? Do you even feel in the end yourself, that you did the wrong decision, even though it should righfully be the right decision?
IMO this is the greatest element of this game´s story!!! So dark fantastic!

I assume you meant "should NOT be kept like prisoners without any procedural rights."  And yes I felt like I made a bad decision... there is idealism and then there's practicality.  I didn't find it fantastic, it made me sad. I play high fantasy to see good prevail, real life is dark enough for me.

*Edited to correct a spelling error.

Modifié par Aelia, 28 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[Talladarr]

My Hawke is a mage, and ergo sympathizes with mages. She's never feared her power as her father seemed to think she had better control than her sister and best friend. As the years progressed Kerrigan(my Hawke) was content to simply stay hidden, mask her magic and make sure her sister didn't get too angry(Her sister accidentally froze things when she was angry)However, When they had to get out of Lothring form the blight she realized how complacent she'd gotten and believed it had cost her her sister's life. when her mother said it was her fault Bethany had died, she believed her.

Since the day Bethany died, she believed that Blood Magic could have saved her, but wasn't brave enough to use it herself. Endeavoring to become more powerful, in the attempt to keep those she loved from dying, she almost lead her brother Carver to his death in the Deeproads, though thankfully she'd brought Anders with her, so they'd gotten to the Grey Wardens in time. It was then that she decided that she had to get over her fears and pick up Blood Magic, asking Merrill to teach her to do it properly so that she doens't get possessed, and if she did, for Merrill to kill her. In the end, she realized how dangerous it was, and set it aside, but couldn't blame anyone for using it, it had power after all; but she would not stand by and suffer evil Blood Mages to live. If they could control it, as Merrill could, and had no true evil intent, didn't use it control anyone, or summon demons, she had no problem letting them live. But then Mother died at the hands of a Blood Mage. She had conflicting feelings about them for a time and even took a step back from Merrill, her lover, for a time; having a hard time not seeing all mages as evil, herself included. But as time passed, she and Merrill grew close once again, and she no longer hated Blood mages. She attributed the large numbers of abominations to mages turning to Blood Magic without knowing how to control it. But then Orsino, a friend of hers for neigh on three years, became a horrible abomination. She couldn't stay any longer in Kirkwal, and decided it was time to leave, and Merrill, having nowhere else to go, her Clan having turned on her and being forced to kill them all to save her own life, followed.

^ ^" I'm so sorry, I just kinda... got carried away?
I like making actual stories for my characters, weather they for this or other games. It also helps in my writing Ido ^ ^

[nateobean]

I was torn between the two sides and didnt know what to do so i sided with the mages. this all could have been avoided if anders hadnt gone insane and blew up the chantry, and in my opinion they were innocent people it would be like terrorists blowing up the vatican! and to top it all off the leader of the mages resorts to blood magic and tries to kill everyone. i feel for the mages but there does need to be some control. it would be nice if they could police them selves but i dont feel that is possible because it wouldnt work in the real world because you have stupid and evil people who would take advantage.

[Arppis]

And just because it was a mage who killed your mother, wouldn't make all mages the same. It's like blaming it all on people who wear dresses, just because the killer happened to wear one.

[Kaylord]

Talladarr, really nice description about character motivations. Without those, the game would just be boring, right?

Aelia; sorry for the typo, you understood what I meant. All in all, it is perhaps a failure to not show the dark sides of blood magic to the player. Neither Merril nor the player have negative demon influence, so it is difficult to understand why these mages fail. OTOH, blood magic is not required to turn into an abomination, it can affect every mage, before and after the Harrowing. The latter is just a test and no insurance. Yes, it is sad, but I think it is very fitting if you see this game as the dark and sinister middle part of a triology, like, "Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back" is.

I could imagine a third part where the hero of Ferelden and Hawke play a major role together with a new player character, and overhaul society in a dramatic way and sort of resolve the things which got out of hand. Not without further sacrifice, of course...

And it is a nice change that you don´t get the "good" served on a silver plate by slaying some archdemon, instead you have to fight for it and have sacrifices which are deeper that "just" having a partymember getting killed permanently. For example, in my playthrough, Merrill got "killed" psychologically by having to slaughter her entire clan. That is far worse than even dying in a "just" fight against darkspawn. She got sacrificed on her way to do something "good", and she is betrayed by her own hopes and thus she fails. This is drama!

Modifié par Kaylord, 28 mars 2011 - 03:09 .

[nikkylee]

I have to agree with the OP. It's taken some serious, intensive pre-game imagination on my part to justify my Hawke, who loves her sister and father, siding with Templars. I've boiled it down to a bit of resentment for all the hiding and moving, and the fact that she trusts her sister (and father)... but that's about it. Bethany has proven she won't fall prey to demons, blood magic... but my Hawke has seen what people can become. So maybe it's a bit of arrogance and blinded-by-emotion on her and Bethany's part like, "Oh... MY sister is too good for that."

It does feel like you really have to shoehorn Hawke into it, though. I've heard people say the same of the pro-mage viewpoint however, I guess it's all in how you look at things.

[Addai]

You can justify it on the basis that daddy Hawke started out in the Circle and you/ Bethany were trained by him, but not every mage has that opportunity and thus can represent a danger to themselves and to society.

[Kaylord]

Well, I think you must either be the black sheep of the family by resenting your family, or you are a mage who either wants to be some sort of templar-mage or who scemes to destroy all other mages for his own gain of power. How you ever could join Meredith in the rite of anulment when your sister is in the circle, is, given the forced friendly relation to sister and mother, beyond me. Maybe if Bethany is a grey warden, the decision to kill the circle falls easier, if you are convinced that the circle has completely fallen to demons. But sadly, the game does not support the latter conclusion until you have already made your decision. Annoying, but sometimes, that´s life and you can be only wrong. Nice lesson.

[LobselVith8]

I don't think anything gives that impression initially. Going further into the story, there seems to be no clear cut answers. We see more mages abuse their powers, but we also see templars doing the same. We encounter templars willing to rape, torture, and murder people, and we encounter mages who have turned into abominations or are abusing their powers to harm others. We do encounter good people on the templar and mage side of the debate, though.

[KAAurious]

silver-crescent wrote...

His father was a mage, and so is/was his sister, whom he got along with extremely well, if the f/r bar is to be believed. Both of them were perfectly healthy and never fell prey to demons or whatever even though they were both apostates.

Then you have Anders and Merrill, the first one used his powers to save the lives of tons of people, the second one does do blood magic, but seems perfectly harmless otherwise.

Also, Flemeth, a mage, is the one who made it possible for him to escape Lothering.

So yeah I'm playing as a pro-templar warrior on my second playthrough and honestly I don't see why my Hawke would act this way at all, given his background. Feels like he's just doing it to please Fenris or something.

Carver found enough justification to at least be slightly anti-mage at times. You just have to pretend that Hawke is more of a dick than he comes off as.

[ReallyRue]

Most of the decisions aren't 'anti-mage' in Act 1 anyway. They are more like 'anti-extreme-mage'.

Bethany was a run-of-the-mill apostate with a good heart and doesn't even seem to want her powers, let alone use them to dominate others. Meanwhile in Act 1, you meet Feynriel, who seems very at risk from possession, and more blood mages/demon summoners than you can shake a stick at, such as Grace's group. And Hawke also might choose to turn them in so that attention is brought to the fact that he/she is harbouring an apostate.