169 réponses à ce sujet

[Karnor00]

At the start of the story, and most of the way through my stance was that it is wrong to oppress mages.  The fact that they can be tempted by demons doesn't mean that they all will be.  And its unfair to condemn the innocent majorty for the actions of a few abominations, no matter how destructive those abominations are.

By the end of the story I found myself thinking that the templars don't go nearly far enough and that the Qunari have the right idea.  The reason is that practically every mage I meet in the game is evil or an abomination.  And note that I don't regard blood magic as inherently evil here so I'm not writing people off simply for being blood mages.

Good mages:

Hawke (if Hawke is a mage)

Bethany

Alain - one of the apostates hiding in a cave in Act 1.  Doesn't turn into an abomination or kill people.

Ella - the mage that Anders/Justice tries to kill.  Has a very small part but no evidence of evil or demonic posession.


Dubious mages

Merill - while she doesn't technically turn into an abomination or intentionally massacre people (her clan start the fight if you do down that route) she did still spend most of the game listening to demon whispers and falls prey to the demon promises in the fade.

Feynriel - if you help him out then he doesn't turn into an abomination.  On the other hand hes already losing to 2 demons when you enter the fade to save him, and the only reason he isn't an abomination yet is that they are both fighting over him.  And you can easily sacrifice him to Torpor without him objecting.  I can't see him staying demon free for long even if you do save him.


Evil mages - everyone else.  I've noted a few below

Orsino - My great anti-abomination hope turns into a disgusting fleshy heap at the end.  While this techincally may not have been demonic in origin its still pretty evil, plus there's the fact that he immediately turned on me rather than just killing templars.

Anders - Kills an innocent unless you stop him.  Plus blows up the chantry including a lot of people who aren't directly responsible for the mages plight.  If he had blown up the gallows then I might have understood.

Grace - even if you save her in Act 1 rather than turning her over to the templars she still turns evil and tries to kill your brother/sister in Act 3.


So basically, aside from Hawke's immediate family and a couple of minor characters (where there isn't anything to indicate evil/abomination status), every mage in the game is either an abomination or a murderer.  I found it pretty hard to defend freedom for mages at this point.  Although that said, the Circle clearly isn't working either.

[heretica]

So Anders is an evil mage? In my opinion things are much more complex than "good" or "bad".

Modifié par Catt128, 28 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[Arppis]

Anders is abomination! He must be destroyed!

[Nodscouter]

Catt128 wrote...

So Anders is an evil mage? In my opinion things are much more complex than "good" or "bad".

Yep. It would be a better idea to rate it by a ''renegade/chaotic and paragon/lawful'' scale.

[Dussan2]

OP: I understand your feelings. In DA:O it was clear that it was a conscious effort or by seduction that a demon would possess you, least of all it took TIME. But here, either the Free March Circle has pitiful training, or there are demons just waiting to jump in your brain at all times. There was plenty of subplots flowing around and anyone of them could have been linked to some cabal of demons looking to subvert the Chantry. This could have explained the reason for mages loosing their cool and turning to abominations. Much like the events in the DA:O.

But this, it felt like it was a matter of time and a mage would just flip out and go Abominable.

[Haussier]

well in kirkwall both blood magic is prevelant and the veil is thin.
Opression and desperation can lead to some horrible actions.
Honestly I don't think they did enough with the mage templar theme.. I didn't see merediths madness until the very end, I didn't even 'know' Orsino at all.. I just didn't understand my involvement with circle politics at all. Had to roleplay a bit to make sense of it.

[Karnor00]

Catt128 wrote...

So Anders is an evil mage? In my opinion things are much more complex than "good" or "bad".

To my mind, blowing up the Chantry puts a big tick into the evil terrorist box.  He may have had his reasons, but they don't justify mass murder.

The Chantry are walking a difficult line between the rights of mages on one hand and protection for the general populace on the other hand.  The fact that pretty much every mage you meet in the game is either a demonic abomination or a mass murderer very much underlines the fact that simply freeing all mages wouldn't be an acceptable solution.

[Curlain]

One thing I was disappointed was with the depiction of mages and templars in DA2. In DA:O through the game, and particularly within the Mage origins and Mage Circle quest you met a wide variety of mages and templars from all parts of the spectrum and various mage groups (different mage fraternities and the mage's collective for example). You meet rational templars who do believe in Circle's purpose but aren't rabid zealots (Greagor and the templar the Deremin Allienage), and rational mages of different perspectives Irving (who seems to be a skilled poltical operator when you read some the letters involving him), Wynne, Morrigan etc, Anders in Awakening. Even blood mages are not monolith evil moustache twirling villains (there is the lady you meet in the Cirlce quest that turned to blood magic to fight for freedom but is shocked by Uldred's betrayal, and asks you to spare her), Jowan, and idiot but not evil, and then Calladurus (sp?) (who is your typical evil blood mage).

There were mages in the tower who thought there magic was a curse from the maker, those happy with their life in the Circle, fearing the life outside, and those who strained against it's hold. There was even a account written by a Tranquil describing how he found peace as a Tranquil as he had spent his entire life scared of his magic and falling prey to demons that he was glad (or as close as one without emotions now could come) to being Tranquil. It was thought-provoking even though I disagreed extremely with the idea of making mages Tranquil.

But this complexity is largely gone in much of DA2, as most mages who get free or who are under threat from anything turn into abominations or resort to demons or blood magic, and the only reasonable templars are those who question the Circle's exist (apart from Cullan somewhat at the end). This is particularly disappointing as in Origins, the Mage-Templar issue is a part of the background to the world, important yes, but not the focus of the story. But in DA2 it is, and I was expecting to go into far greater depth, but it didn't really do it.

[heretica]

It's more of an education problem. Blood magic is there, it's like drugs or sex. They should give mages information about the risks it entails or ways to deal with demons.

Unlike Uldred, most of the blood mages in Kirkwall turned to blood magic as a mean  to survive. I know i'd do the same if my life is in danger.

Templars are lazy. "Oh, when **** gets nasty, just call for the right of anulement" that or make them all tranquil. How is that any better than blowing up a chantry? The crime is still there.

bonus: this is what a templar sees with his eyes closed: www.youtube.com/watch

[Arppis]

Catt128 wrote...

It's more of an education problem. Blood magic is there, it's like drugs or sex. They should give mages information about the risks it entails or ways to deal with demons.

Unlike Uldred, most of the blood mages in Kirkwall turned to blood magic as a mean  to survive. I know i'd do the same if my life is in danger.

Templars are lazy. "Oh, when **** gets nasty, just call for the right of anulement" that or make them all tranquil. How is that any better than blowing up a chantry? The crime is still there.

bonus: this is what a templar sees with his eyes closed: www.youtube.com/watch

It's always easier to kill everyone. Violence can solve any problem in the world!

And Ducktales music is awesome.

[Asdara]

The best way to be "pro-mage" is to adopt Anders's view that mages only turn to dangerous magic because traditional magic is controlled and monitored by the Templars - and has (we know from DAO) some countermeasure developed by Templars for control. To escape the controlled existence mages turn to blood magic or demons to gain powers the Templars can't combat as effectively to become free. It has some merits, but it also has a lot of moral issues tied up in it that make it confusing.

Freedom is good. Danger is bad. Freedom of Dangerous things then is ? Good or bad? Can something as dangerous as a mage control themselves? We know that some can, but we also know that some cannot. What is to be done about this then? Do we let those who can control those who cannot? Is the ability to fend off temptation static, something you always have forever - or does it work on a sliding scale over time - this week you're strong against the evil ideas and next month you could be courting a demon because your baby drowned and you want to reanimate them. So, letting the group police itself might - as Fenris always happily points out - be the wrong idea, but locking the good controlled people away with the weaker, possibly already corrupt people is not really a solution either. Mainly because it seems to be pressure, stress, and a feeling of helplessness that provokes mages to seek "alternative means" of survival.

If you can untangle that, you either come out with a pro-mage stance or a pro-Circle stance. It's easy to be pro-mage if you recognize the fact that, as an adventurer of some prominence you encounter far more deviant situations than the average citizen would.

[Suron]

it's just part of the problem with DA2. On their own each reason behind blood mages n whatnot is understandable if not excusable. But it's like BioWare knew most would be pro-mages so they went waaaaay too far out of their way to turn 99% of the mages in Kirkwall to Blood Mages, Abominations, and/or murderers (like your mothers killer.) In the end it feels forced and trite. They tried too hard to blur the lines by turning 99% (yes an arbitrary % but it feels damn close) of mages to the very thing that JUSTIFIES the Chantry keeping them locked up.

DA2 really fell apart in Act 3 because of this. It was just too forced (yes I keep repeating it because it needs repeated)

[tom.bleaker]

I did kinda feel they went more out of their way to make mages less sympathetic than they did to make Templars more sympathetic. 

[Nukenin]

There's no excuse for blood magic. It's icky and gross!

I think a lot of folks still think of Anders as he was in Awakening—an Anders that died with Ser Pounce-a-lot. The Anders we see in DA2 is not that Anders, nor is it the spirit of Justice, nor is it some cheery hybrid of the two.

My suspicion is that when Anders realized how many levels he lost in the transistion from DA:A to DA2, he went bats and took Justice down to bats-town as well.

[Buckarama]

Then there is the thought that the Templar's iron grip caused the mages to seek more power for a way out. When your mother dies the note you find is signed O. Which is the first enchanter, Orsino,so there was another twist that he was responsible for allowing your mothers death. Feneris was only turned to my side by pointing out the Templar's were just like the slavers he hates, not that he was a magic supporter of any kind.

[Aelia]

Asdara wrote...

The best way to be "pro-mage" is to adopt Anders's view that mages only turn to dangerous magic because traditional magic is controlled and monitored by the Templars - and has (we know from DAO) some countermeasure developed by Templars for control. To escape the controlled existence mages turn to blood magic or demons to gain powers the Templars can't combat as effectively to become free. It has some merits, but it also has a lot of moral issues tied up in it that make it confusing.

Freedom is good. Danger is bad. Freedom of Dangerous things then is ? Good or bad? Can something as dangerous as a mage control themselves? We know that some can, but we also know that some cannot. What is to be done about this then? Do we let those who can control those who cannot? Is the ability to fend off temptation static, something you always have forever - or does it work on a sliding scale over time - this week you're strong against the evil ideas and next month you could be courting a demon because your baby drowned and you want to reanimate them. So, letting the group police itself might - as Fenris always happily points out - be the wrong idea, but locking the good controlled people away with the weaker, possibly already corrupt people is not really a solution either. Mainly because it seems to be pressure, stress, and a feeling of helplessness that provokes mages to seek "alternative means" of survival.

If you can untangle that, you either come out with a pro-mage stance or a pro-Circle stance. It's easy to be pro-mage if you recognize the fact that, as an adventurer of some prominence you encounter far more deviant situations than the average citizen would.

For me, the problem here is means... I don't believe that they justify the ends.  As I said in another thread, there are fates worse than death (like surrendering yourself to a demon for the sake of survival, I mean, after that, win or lose, you're gone anyway, right? Only us demons here!)

I couldn't condone Anders' actions and as a result I had to kill my love as part of the price of wanting to live in a world where we mages police our own.  While my warden would have an easier go of it, it's going to be hard for my champion to side with the mages in the coming war, since her only experiences come from DA2.  The love of her life, conned her into helping commit a grievous atrocity, her mother was taken out by a blood mage, and the head enchanter wigs out  for some unknown reason right after we've DEFEATED Meredith's first wave. Let alone the many OTHER betrayals by mages she witnesses or participates in throughout the course of the game (please don't get me started on Merril which we can also lay at the door of consorting with demons).

Other than my own actions as a mage champion, I don't recall any redeeming actions by any mage in the game (even Anders' use of spirit healing in the slums of Kirkwall are cheapened by his terrorist activities).

What makes me so sad about this whole thing, is that I WHOLE HEARTEDLY believe in personal freedom and individual responsibility.  The problem here is that each of these individuals is a nuclear weapon, so when things go wrong, the consequences are extreme.  Kudos to Bioware for creating such moralistic dilemna, they do law school professors proud... but curse you for taking my gaming experience and making it a law school exam <sigh>

-A

[LobselVith8]

Karnor00 wrote...

At the start of the story, and most of the way through my stance was that it is wrong to oppress mages.  The fact that they can be tempted by demons doesn't mean that they all will be.  And its unfair to condemn the innocent majorty for the actions of a few abominations, no matter how destructive those abominations are.

By the end of the story I found myself thinking that the templars don't go nearly far enough and that the Qunari have the right idea. 

Why? Out of the hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children in the Gallows Prison, we encounter only a fraction of them. In fact, we encounter two mages for Meredith's quest who were sane before they went to the Gallows Prison, and mentally unbalanced when they came out. (On the Loose) We also know that a mage like Alain is getting raped by a templar who threatens him with tranquility if he talks, based on what we says in Act II, so the enviornment of the Gallows Prison is a toxic one.

Karnor00 wrote...

I found it pretty hard to defend freedom for mages at this point.  Although that said, the Circle clearly isn't working either.

I didn't find it difficult, personally. The mages we encounter don't address the multitude of mages in the Circle or outside it, and condemning all mages and apprentices to execution for the actions of a man who isn't a Circle mage didn't endear the Order of Templars to me, either.

[shinyelf]

It might be either brilliant storytelling, or just a bad idea, i mean look at the problem, the mages are opressed, that is clearly a problem, but also they posses much power, and most of them dont temper it with wisdom, this make for an interesting dilemma, do we free the opressed regardless of past crimes? or do we judge every one a danger and kill them for their own sake. It's not meant to be easy, i mean what if the mages were just opressed, hated, and never did anything wrong? there would be no conflict, we just had to reason with the templars/chantry.
i think it's brilliant story telling, and a good way to make contrast.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why? Out of the hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children in the Gallows Prison, we encounter only a fraction of them. In fact, we encounter two mages for Meredith's quest who were sane before they went to the Gallows Prison, and mentally unbalanced when they came out. (On the Loose) We also know that a mage like Alain is getting raped by a templar who threatens him with tranquility if he talks, based on what we says in Act II, so the enviornment of the Gallows Prison is a toxic one.

Well you know, it's the epitome of lazy design that we never see this.
Instead we see a few mages standing around outside complaining about it. If they really wanted to depict a grey area we should've been able to go inside the Gallows prison or see scenes in there instead of hearsay and assumption (for all we know those two mages became unstable because of the Hellmouth alone).

[Karnor00]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why? Out of the hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children in the Gallows Prison, we encounter only a fraction of them. In fact, we encounter two mages for Meredith's quest who were sane before they went to the Gallows Prison, and mentally unbalanced when they came out. (On the Loose) We also know that a mage like Alain is getting raped by a templar who threatens him with tranquility if he talks, based on what we says in Act II, so the enviornment of the Gallows Prison is a toxic one.

I agree that the Gallows is a terrible environment and probalby contributes to the mages going bad/turning into abominations.  The big unknown in the game is how much impact that is having and how many would have gone bad/turned into abominations anyway.

My point is that virtually every mage we meet in the game is either a murderer (mass murderer often) or a demonic abomination.  Even the ones who had nothing to do with the Gallows.

It's so pervasive that the Gallows isn't a case of imprisoning mainly innocent mages to stop the destruction of the few that turn bad.  It's more a case of imprisoning one or two innocent mages because everyone else will turn bad.  At that point I would say practical considerations outweigh the morality issues.  Or they would if the Gallows were evenly remotely effective at preventing abominations.

That may not be the wider lore position of the DA world in general, but it's certainly the impression you get from this game.

[Aelia]

shinyelf wrote...

It might be either brilliant storytelling, or just a bad idea, i mean look at the problem, the mages are opressed, that is clearly a problem, but also they posses much power, and most of them dont temper it with wisdom, this make for an interesting dilemma, do we free the opressed regardless of past crimes? or do we judge every one a danger and kill them for their own sake. It's not meant to be easy, i mean what if the mages were just opressed, hated, and never did anything wrong? there would be no conflict, we just had to reason with the templars/chantry.
i think it's brilliant story telling, and a good way to make contrast.

Actually, i'm with Angry on this, at least if I understood her post right.  The story seems lazy and forced to me.  We need to see more balance between the good and evil of BOTH sides to force the difficult choices.  Like I said above, based on DA2 alone, by the end it's hard for me to be on the mage's side, and I come to the game pre-disposed to support them.

-A

[Aelia]

Karnor00 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why? Out of the hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children in the Gallows Prison, we encounter only a fraction of them. In fact, we encounter two mages for Meredith's quest who were sane before they went to the Gallows Prison, and mentally unbalanced when they came out. (On the Loose) We also know that a mage like Alain is getting raped by a templar who threatens him with tranquility if he talks, based on what we says in Act II, so the enviornment of the Gallows Prison is a toxic one.

I agree that the Gallows is a terrible environment and probalby contributes to the mages going bad/turning into abominations.  The big unknown in the game is how much impact that is having and how many would have gone bad/turned into abominations anyway.

My point is that virtually every mage we meet in the game is either a murderer (mass murderer often) or a demonic abomination.  Even the ones who had nothing to do with the Gallows.

It's so pervasive that the Gallows isn't a case of imprisoning mainly innocent mages to stop the destruction of the few that turn bad.  It's more a case of imprisoning one or two innocent mages because everyone else will turn bad.  At that point I would say practical considerations outweigh the morality issues.  Or they would if the Gallows were evenly remotely effective at preventing abominations.

That may not be the wider lore position of the DA world in general, but it's certainly the impression you get from this game.

+1

[Miashi]

I'm convinced that it's something in the water. After drinking it for a while, any oppressive thoughts will drive you insane and turn you into a super-sayain blood mage.

Modifié par Miashi, 28 mars 2011 - 04:34 .

[Economist21]

It was easy for me to side with mages until the very end. During the last battle I must have encountered what felt like 50 abominations before I made it to the gallows. I was thinking; "My god! Meredith was right! Blood Mages and abominations everywhere!".

[LobselVith8]

Meredith isn't right, though. The Knight-Commander wants the genocide of every mage for the actions of a Grey Warden who was standing right in front of her. Since there are likely hundreds or thousands of mages of all ages in the Gallows Prison, encountering only a handful of abominations doesn't mean that every mage fell prey to abominations. We can't condemn every mage for the actions of the few we encounter.