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[The Angry One]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Skulls of thousands of others? It's worth noting that Fenris says that blood magic is practiced in secret, and I imagine they rarely perform the rituals that require people to die. It's an open secret, but it's still very far from the pre-Chantry days.

And yet when Hadriana needed a little extra power, bam. Slave sacrificed.
This also includes the many other mages they enslave, and the rivals they battle to the death.

[mesmerizedish]

The Angry One wrote...

And yet when Hadriana needed a little extra power, bam. Slave sacrificed.
This also includes the many other mages they enslave, and the rivals they battle to the death.

Battling rivals to the death is hardly something to condemn. I'm sure both parties entered into the arrangement with the understanding that one of them would die. It's more on the up-and-up than many of the battles to the death my character has engaged in.

[allankles]

 Pfft! Dragon Age is the only universe I can think of where Mages are locked up and restrained. It would be like locking up force sensitives in Star Wars. It's not a policy that was ever going to last the test of time. Locking someone up because they have a powerful and unique gift is short sighted.

Mages have the potential for anything, they can become demi gods with the right mix of talent and knowledge.

Restraining such beings would only lead to conflict in the long run.

A more progressive approach, where they are raised and taught proper values by other Mages (like a council of wise Magi) is a better way to go, and will yield greater results. Because magic is treated as taboo, the greater mysteries of the gift are never discovered, or are mistreated e.g. blood magic.

[DrGulag]

This "slave state" is also the only place where elves possess any potential at social advancement: they can become magisters. Everywhere else in Thedas, they reside in ghettos, and they ARE enslaved in Orlais, they just don't call them that.

That's like comparing the circumstances surrounding an average African American living in a poor neighbourhood to some poor girl who was chosen as human sacrifice. Tevinter Imperium is evil, no two ways about it.

Besides when **** starts to happen mages are completely useless to do anything about it. Apparently it takes only one crazy mage to bring an entire Circle down...before templar reinforcements eventually arrive to save the day.

So mages can't police themselves, they can't be trusted, they are walking bombs just waiting to explode and they refuse to be contained.

[The Angry One]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And yet when Hadriana needed a little extra power, bam. Slave sacrificed.
This also includes the many other mages they enslave, and the rivals they battle to the death.

Battling rivals to the death is hardly something to condemn. I'm sure both parties entered into the arrangement with the understanding that one of them would die. It's more on the up-and-up than many of the battles to the death my character has engaged in.

Except they do it in the middle of streets. Canonically spells are friendly-fire off so I hope those poor slaves know when to hit the deck..

[mesmerizedish]

allankles wrote...

 Pfft! Dragon Age is the only universe I can think of where Mages are locked up and restrained. It would be like locking up force sensitives in Star Wars. It's not a policy that was ever going to last the test of time. Locking someone up because they have a powerful and unique gift is short sighted.

But... that's totally what the Jedi do... they even go so far as to try to usurp other Force traditions, much as the templars would just love it if they could stick the Dalish mages in the Circle towers.

[DrGulag]

It would be like locking up force sensitives in Star Wars. It's not a policy that was ever going to last the test of time. Locking someone up because they have a powerful and unique gift is short sighted.

No, it's the only logical choice to safeguard the society as a whole.

Lets not compare Dragon Age to Star Wars, because force users were not suspectible to demonic possession at any random moment nor did they have the power to summon monsters to destroy entire villages.

And besides, Jedis are also contained. They are taken away from their parents.

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[allankles]

The Tervinter Imperium is hardly a model to follow regarding free mages. Their whole culture is ancient and influenced by ancient ideals which cared for nothing but power. No human rights, no restraint. Magic is used as a weapon, a very blunt weapon more often than not. Such men would be dangerous even without magic.

However, in saying that, we should note that not every mage in Tervinter is evil, if everyone there was evil that empire would have imploded centuries ago.

[LobselVith8]

DrGulag, your speculation on the issue doesn't really fit with the lore we know. Abominations have been killed long before the Chantry or its templars were ever in existence. Arlathan is reputed to have been a nation of elven mages, the nation of the Dales had mages in positions of authority with no templar oversight, the Chasind tribes and the Dalish clans have mages, the nation of Rivain has had it's seers for generations, and Haven stood for over 900 years with mages living alongside non-mages. Your theory about mages doesn't seem to stand up to what we lore about mages in Thedas.

[allankles]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

allankles wrote...

 Pfft! Dragon Age is the only universe I can think of where Mages are locked up and restrained. It would be like locking up force sensitives in Star Wars. It's not a policy that was ever going to last the test of time. Locking someone up because they have a powerful and unique gift is short sighted.

But... that's totally what the Jedi do... they even go so far as to try to usurp other Force traditions, much as the templars would just love it if they could stick the Dalish mages in the Circle towers.

The Jedi have co existed with other force traditions. The only difference is their tradition was expansionist, while most of the others were more isolationist.

[DrGulag]

DrGulag, your speculation on the issue doesn't really fit with the lore we know. Abominations have been killed long before the Chantry or its templars were ever in existence. Arlathan is reputed to have been a nation of elven mages, the nation of the Dales had mages in positions of authority with no templar oversight, the Chasind tribes and the Dalish clans have mages, the nation of Rivain has had it's seers for generations, and Haven stood for over 900 years with mages living alongside non-mages. Your theory about mages doesn't seem to stand up to what we lore about mages in Thedas.

The codex entries are nothing but useless text, speculation from random scholars who may or may not be trusted. What we see and hear during gameplay is what matters to me.

The Templars are doing good work protecting the common man from destruction and mayhem. And they have cool looking armor as well so that's a bonus. 

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[allankles]

The idea that every mage is a possible abomination is way off to me. The tradition of the Harrowing is not there for nothing. DA 2 just tells me that if you try to push guys who can fry you with their minds, you'll get burned.

The fact that these Kirkwall mages were susceptible to demons is more a reflection of their instruction as well as the barbaric policies of the Templar overseers. Mages should be controlled by mages. I wise experienced mage is better than a Templar, with regards to oversight over mages.

To me it just shows me that the Chantry is short sighted with regards to magic and because it has deemed it taboo, mages are not being nurtured in a healthy way for the most part. Apostates like the Hawke's are the lucky exceptions.

[DrGulag]

The fact that these Kirkwall mages were susceptible to demons is more a reflection of their instruction as well as the barbaric policies of the Templar overseers. Mages should be controlled by mages. I wise experienced mage is better than a Templar, with regards to oversight over mages.

That worked really well in Ferelden.

And it takes only one demon inside one young boy to bring an entire village down to its knees (RedCliffe). So no, mages can't and won't have freedom when it comes to my save-game.

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 03:55 .

[The Angry One]

You can blame the regime at Kirkwall all you want, and yet it's the Starkhaven circle which nobody ever speaks of having been particularily bad that produced Decimus and Grace, two of the most psychotic and malicious blood mages in the game.

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...

I pretty much agree with the circle being one of the best places to be. In any case, it's not as bad as being constantly on the run, or getting murdered by templars.

I may be confusing you with someone else, but didn't you argue in one of the qunari threads thats you would rather be free and live like **** than have a nice/comfortable life and have choice taken away from you?

Cause it sounds like you're going down the comfy/choice-free route in that quote, and I'd like to know what the difference is.

[Joy Divison]

allankles wrote...

 Pfft! Dragon Age is the only universe I can think of where Mages are locked up and restrained. It would be like locking up force sensitives in Star Wars. It's not a policy that was ever going to last the test of time. Locking someone up because they have a powerful and unique gift is short sighted.

Mages have the potential for anything, they can become demi gods with the right mix of talent and knowledge.

Restraining such beings would only lead to conflict in the long run.

A more progressive approach, where they are raised and taught proper values by other Mages (like a council of wise Magi) is a better way to go, and will yield greater results. Because magic is treated as taboo, the greater mysteries of the gift are never discovered, or are mistreated e.g. blood magic.

Mutants in X-Men are treated the same way.

It is precisely why mages are different and a threat that society locks them up and restrains them.  I'm not an expert on anthropology, but there are many examples of societies across the globe that have isolated/exiled/killed people they deem "possessed" and imbued w/ supernatural powers.  This trend continued even after the Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution when it was thought that racial and political enemies could infect/injure society.

I doubt your progressive approach centered on education would yield greater results.  It is a very noble idea that dates back to the Renassaince that with the proper education the best will be brought out in humanity, but educating crooks does not make them virtuous, it merely makes them better criminals.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 30 mars 2011 - 04:02 .

[allankles]

Guys, magic isn't being explored in an open nurturing environment in DA. It's taboo, and the study of divergent disciplines like blood magic is even less open. So it is surprising when the few that delve into blood magic do it from a starting point of ignorance? It's not like they can openly investigate the discipline and come up with proper facts about it.

With regards to demons they are just part of the world. They are a constant threat and will pop up in any place that ignorance is rife. The Earl's son in Redcliffe wouldn't have been in that situation if he's mother had any faith in the Circle. The fact that the Chantry has restricted mages and then by extension restricted the study of magic within said circle means that situations like Redcliffe are even more likely. If Mages were free to study their gift in peace, the Redcliffe boy would have had plenty of mage instructors without the added restriction of being restrained in the Circle.

[langelog]

Mages "can be" dangerous, but you can't paint them all with the same brush. What the Templars do goes too far, so siding with mages was an easy choice. Anders is a good guy, plus he has Justice inside him, who knows what's truly just better than Justice? I will say that the salute you get from Knight Captain Cullen and the Templars in the end was absolutely epic, and it's a shame it doesn't happen if you side with the mages. It should happen regardless as a sign of respect for what Hawke did, since he also saved the Templars from Meredith. I'd like to see that changed.

[allankles]

The Angry One wrote...

You can blame the regime at Kirkwall all you want, and yet it's the Starkhaven circle which nobody ever speaks of having been particularily bad that produced Decimus and Grace, two of the most psychotic and malicious blood mages in the game.

Bad people can become mages too. I don't really see how this changes anything. With people susceptible to that kind of obsession, the Templars are just another excuse, another justification. 

If it wasn't the Templars it would be something else. Evil people and evil mages exist in other fantasy universes too. The Kirkwall circle doesn't have a monopoly on bad mages.

I just see the Circle as an impediment to the full understanding of magic in DA. You're better off teaching the Mages how to restrain themselves through sound nurturing rather than treating them like prisoners for the rest of their natural lives, just because they were born with a powerful gift.

[DrGulag]

Anders is a good guy, plus he has Justice inside him, who knows what's truly just better than Justice?

For some reason I don't have much sympathy for fundamentalists who bomb civilians and speak about martyrdom. But that's just me.

Had I been born in Afganistan or some other hellhole, I might see the other side of the argument though.

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[Lewie]

allankles wrote...

The idea that every mage is a possible abomination is way off to me. The tradition of the Harrowing is not there for nothing. DA 2 just tells me that if you try to push guys who can fry you with their minds, you'll get burned.

The fact that these Kirkwall mages were susceptible to demons is more a reflection of their instruction as well as the barbaric policies of the Templar overseers. Mages should be controlled by mages. I wise experienced mage is better than a Templar, with regards to oversight over mages.

To me it just shows me that the Chantry is short sighted with regards to magic and because it has deemed it taboo, mages are not being nurtured in a healthy way for the most part. Apostates like the Hawke's are the lucky exceptions.

The tradition of the harrowing is supposed to work, yet obviously doesn't. The game tells you this so if the basic instruction for mages is wrong how can you expect them to use magic for the good of others and not themselves? Its not about blame many mages saw what they were becoming and wanted death, others wanted power and others felt it was the only freedom they could have. If the circle fails as it even did in DA1 almost, and most now would rather be on the run than go to the circle, the options are limited to say the least. 

Darn it, i sympathise with both sides yet the bigger picture blooms. 

[Ryzaki]

Honestly the more I play the more anti-mage I become. Too many idiots, too much power, too much greed.

They're powder kegs waiting for a match.

The Circle needs some serious reforms (LIke Templars being called out on their abusive crap) but letting mages roam around freely is madness.

And Anders needs a reality smack if he thinks his "mages should be free!" stick is going to actually benefit anyone other than a few powerhungry mages. 

Because for every other mage that'll become free they'll be one screwed over by someone like Grace. 

And yeah the fact that Grace becomes a bloodmage killed pretty much all my sympathy for mage freedom. They can all burn in a fire for all I care. All of them. Including the mage companions. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[PantheraOnca]

Joy Divison wrote...

  It is a very noble idea that dates back to the Renassaince that with the proper education the best will be brought out in humanity, but educating crooks does not make them virtuous, it merely makes them better criminals.

The idea behind education is to remove the need to use criminal means to attain goals. We haven't reached that point yet in history, so we'll see if it ever happens that way.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Speaking of ancient ideals: what made them crooks in the first place? They were not born that way.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 30 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[KodiakAsh]

Dragon Age I feel is always kinda silly when it comes to Blood Magic.

In DA:O everyone hated on Blood Mages, constantly. What DA:O had going for it was even though there was clearly a tension between the First Enchanter and the Knight Commander, you also could see a healthy amount of respect for one another. More importantly, Mages also knew that Blood Mages were bad and acted as such. You had Niall, Wynne, etc all trying to fight back against the mages who were weak and gave in to Blood Magic (IE: The bad ones).

Here we are in DA2 and it's the same old story, only multiplied by the fact that nearly every single mage in the game you set out to help is some form of abomination, blood mage, or ends up doing something awful for usually some lame-duck reason with no redeeming hope or qualities. Even Ander's crusade (there's simply no better term) is the most ass backwards thing I've ever seen. He's constantly goes on how not every mage is dangerous even in the face of innumerable mages proving him wrong time after time after time. Where is my Irving, Wynne or Niall to prove his point? Instead all we're given is multiple "Grace" style characters time after time. "Oh I would never use Blood Magic, it's wrong and bad!" *few minutes later* "RAWR Blood Magic demons gooooo!"

I hated Fenris, I really did, but damned if he isn't right the whole game.

Also I always found it hilarious how the game conveniently ignores the fact if you are a blood mage. In DA:O I'd be popping open my neck and channeling power of out a gush of blood and no one would say a thing. In DA2 everyone's all "Blood Magic is bad, you made a deal with a demon!" on Merril as I sit there and nod in agreement while I steal some of their HP to keep casting spells. Kinda silly really.