169 réponses à ce sujet

[allankles]

This is a solution that has to begin at the heart of all this mess, the Chantry. Their anti-magic doctrine doesn't do much to help the situation. Mages find themselves with no sanctuary. Restrained and imprisoned in the natural world, and wary of demonic influence from the Fade.

In a better set up, where you have Mage Grand Masters, they'd be the knights, instructors and hunters of their own people. If a mage became Malifecarum, they'd be hunted by mages.

You have to build a healthy tradition, it doesn't just happen overnight.

Modifié par allankles, 30 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[Rifneno]

DrGulag wrote...

The fact that these Kirkwall mages were susceptible to demons is more a reflection of their instruction as well as the barbaric policies of the Templar overseers. Mages should be controlled by mages. I wise experienced mage is better than a Templar, with regards to oversight over mages.

That worked really well in Ferelden.

And it takes only one demon inside one young boy to bring an entire village down to its knees (RedCliffe). So no, mages can't and won't have freedom when it comes to my save-game.

Except when you consider that the reason Connor wound up like that is because the templars' extremist methods make it so many parents won't give their children to them and the children can't be taught properly.  I mean Lady Isolde is pretty much sharing the throne on a castle and surrounding villages and the best she can manage to teach her son is JOWEN.  I wouldn't trust that nimrod to feed my fish.  If the Chantry ruled over mages with open arms instead of closed fists, there would be far fewer ill-taught apostates running around.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Instead all we're given is multiple "Grace" style characters time after time. "Oh I would never use Blood Magic, it's wrong and bad!" *few minutes later* "RAWR Blood Magic demons gooooo!"

It's because they become abominations a few minutes later. The Veil is thin: the demons are constantly whispering to them. They resist as they can, but abuse and torture by the templars makes it difficult. In their isolated cells, demons are their only company. Then, when pushed to the brink of death and already half crazy, is it any wonder they say "ok fine, I accept your deal!" when they have nothing left to lose?

I don't know why people continually insisting on blaming the innocent mages for all this. Anders is insane, but that's because he's already an abomination.

allankles wrote...

The Tervinter Imperium is hardly a model to follow regarding free mages. Their whole culture is ancient and influenced by ancient ideals which cared for nothing but power. No human rights, no restraint. Magic is used as a weapon, a very blunt weapon more often than not. Such men would be dangerous even without magic.

However, in saying that, we should note that not every mage in Tervinter is evil, if everyone there was evil that empire would have imploded centuries ago.

Is there something wrong with being ancient? Tevinter's great antiquity is why its culture is profoundly worth preserving. The Chantry has already ruined enough. Elvhenan is gone. Would you destroy the last traces of the past?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 30 mars 2011 - 04:26 .

[langelog]

All of this proves how well written DA2 is. Everyone is starting to think differently about mages and Templars. Simply put there is no black and white, this is one giant grey area.

[The Angry One]

So again, what's Decimus and Grace's excuse?
They came from Starkhaven where presumably the veil isn't thin, and hell they're arguably worse than abominations because they're in full control of their own actions.

[The Angry One]

langelog wrote...

All of this proves how well written DA2 is. Everyone is starting to think differently about mages and Templars. Simply put there is no black and white, this is one giant grey area.

Well written up to the point where the plot implodes in act 3, certainly.

[Camilladilla]

The Angry One wrote...

So again, what's Decimus and Grace's excuse?
They came from Starkhaven where presumably the veil isn't thin, and hell they're arguably worse than abominations because they're in full control of their own actions.

Decimus... I'm not going to touch him.

But Grace? She was willing to turn over and be a good little apostate on the run when Hawke let her go, unfortunately she got caught and was subjected to happy templar fun times in the Gallows for a bit. Guess that was enough to push her over the edge.

[Lewie]

Well, playing a blood mage isn't about recognition in game its about 'being' that character is it not? Freely you would converse with a demon if needed? That sort of thing. Hence free all blood mages and kill anyone who says otherwise.

The dwarves 'controlled' the lyrium, which mages needed, which templars got addicted too. The templars control over the mages increases, blood magic rises up, demons controlling mages and now infects templars also.

I was going to say i support anyone who isn't addled but i would trust sandal with my life. 

Modifié par louise101, 30 mars 2011 - 04:47 .

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

So again, what's Decimus and Grace's excuse?
They came from Starkhaven where presumably the veil isn't thin, and hell they're arguably worse than abominations because they're in full control of their own actions.

I was unaware that if a few members of a minority are monsters, it justifies punishing all of them.

[The Angry One]

Camilladilla wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So again, what's Decimus and Grace's excuse?
They came from Starkhaven where presumably the veil isn't thin, and hell they're arguably worse than abominations because they're in full control of their own actions.

Decimus... I'm not going to touch him.

But Grace? She was willing to turn over and be a good little apostate on the run when Hawke let her go, unfortunately she got caught and was subjected to happy templar fun times in the Gallows for a bit. Guess that was enough to push her over the edge.

And holding an unreasonable grudge against Hawke the whole time.
Plus, she admits she learned blood magic from Decimus so she was a blood mage right from the moment you caught her.

Rifneno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So again, what's Decimus and Grace's excuse?
They
came from Starkhaven where presumably the veil isn't thin, and hell
they're arguably worse than abominations because they're in full control
of their own actions.

I was unaware that if a few members of a minority are monsters, it justifies punishing all of them.

Except it's not a few. It's almost all of them.
I'm just pointing out that two of the worst examples of murderous blood mages in the game aren't even from Kirkwall.

Modifié par The Angry One, 30 mars 2011 - 04:32 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

langelog wrote...

All of this proves how well written DA2 is. Everyone is starting to think differently about mages and Templars. Simply put there is no black and white, this is one giant grey area.

I hated templars since Origins. My views haven't changed at all: only become stronger.

The Angry One wrote...

So again, what's Decimus and Grace's excuse?
They came from Starkhaven where presumably the veil isn't thin, and hell they're arguably worse than abominations because they're in full control of their own actions.

Decimus is your DA:O style blood mage: unhappy with the Circle and desperate to get out using whatever means necessary. Those still exist, it's just that the vast majority of blood mages in DA2 aren't of that type.

Grace was his lackey, but it wasn't until her time in the Gallows that she went nuts.

[Ryzaki]

I'm still miffed I can't kill Grace from the jump. Complete bull that was.

Stupid Grace. >_>

Both sides are idiots but I rather take the side of the idiots that don't cause mass destruction and havoc with just one person.    

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 04:34 .

[langelog]

The Angry One wrote...

langelog wrote...

All of this proves how well written DA2 is. Everyone is starting to think differently about mages and Templars. Simply put there is no black and white, this is one giant grey area.

Well written up to the point where the plot implodes in act 3, certainly.

I agree

[DrGulag]

I was unaware that if a few members of a minority are monsters, it justifies punishing all of them.

That's what being human is all about.

"Not all m........ages are abominations but all abominations are mages."

It doesn't matter if only the minority turn into monsters. The very possibility gives society little options. Containment or extermination.

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 04:44 .

[Alelsa]

Having the game mostly only show us the mages we had to fight, rather than the many innocents stuck inside the Gallows, doesn't help.  I'd have liked a scene or two where we got to hear more tales of woe about how they were being treated by the Templars.  It was touched on a couple of times, but not enough for my liking.

The thing I always keep reminding myself is - they never asked to be born Mages.  If they are fighting out of a sense of self-preservation, I can't really blame them if they turn to Blood Magic.  

The thing with Anders and the Chantry was a little disturbing.  Okay, more than a little at first, until I thought about it more.  He isn't exactly stable, so expecting him to follow the same ethics as anyone else is perhaps asking a bit much.   He was driven to what he did by the behaviour of the Templars.   Given the choice though, I'd rather have seen him direct that at the Templars themselves rather than the non-militant aspect of the Chantry.

I really didn't have much sympathy for the Chantry though.  They seemed rather ineffective and pointless, when they could have been doing a lot more.   Plus they managed to produce Sister Petrice.

By the time it came to make a decision, I'd already made up my mind to side with the mages.  I didn't see any reason to execute Anders on the spot, and Sebastian had made enough of an idiot of himself that I really didn't care about going up against him.  While Anders can't ever make up for killing innocent people, he could at least save some other innocent lives, so I kept him alive for that reason.  Had I killed him or allowed someone else to do so, I might as well have taken those innocent lives myself.

[Emperor Iaius I]

DrGulag wrote...



"Not all m........ages are abominations but all abominations are mages."

Not true.

It doesn't matter if only the minority turn into monsters. The very possibility gives society little options. Containment or extermination.

Some people turn into criminals. Let's wipe out humanity.

Oh, wait, that's stupid.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 30 mars 2011 - 04:47 .

[Chuvvy]

One in every three mages in DA2 is an abomination, an insane bloodmage, or a combination of the two. Bloodmagic was a greyish area in and rare DAO. In DA2 it's ****ing everywhere and it's been reduced to lol evil. Everyone that does it is insane or gets turned into an abomination besides Hawke or Merrill. If I hadn't played DAO and hadn't seen that mages can be stable, I'd have sided with the templars. Also for a city of templars they do a terrible job of watching out for demons, abominations and bloodmages. They're everywhere every other quest has you fighting some form of demon.

[DrGulag]

The thing with Anders and the Chantry was a little disturbing. Okay, more than a little at first, until I thought about it more. He isn't exactly stable, so expecting him to follow the same ethics as anyone else is perhaps asking a bit much.

He was quite stable and had a logical reasoning for his actions as well.

If I was a in a similar situation I would also fight against people who favoured containment. For example, I would probably shoot rockets towards Israel had I been born in Palestine.

There really is no diplomatic solution to this whole issue concerning mages and templars. Since the game made me choose one or the other, I opted for templars.

ps. Had I the choice, I would have killed everyone and sided with the Qunari though.

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 04:51 .

[Kartikeya]

Remember that Eveline was a Circle mage before she came to Kirkwall. She ends up in Kirkwall because of the Blight, she was originally from the Ferelden Circle. She voluntarily turned herself in, and then she goes bat****. If that's not an indication that something is very very wrong in the Kirkwall Circle, I don't know what is.

Remember that mage prison mentioned in a codex entry in DA:O? Remember how it specifically involves a location where the veil is very very thin, so that demons are ever-present to tempt mages? And how mages are pretty much locked in there, then summarily executed when they finally give in to the demons? Now, consider that the veil is very very thin in Kirkwall, especially in areas where a whole lot of slaves died (and thus, especially in the Gallows, where it's said executions and torture happened daily, sometimes hourly, and every slave had to pass through it when entering the city, so they could see what they were in for). What moron decided to not only place one of two Circles in the Free Marches in a veil torn city, but in a location in the city that specifically saw some of the worst veil-thinning offenses of the Tevinter Imperium? There's a giant pride demon bound right beneath the city, for pity's sake. It would be like locking up all the local Jedi in that creepy dark-side energy cave in KotOR 2, and then acting shocked when they eventually start cracking.

That said, it absolutely isn't everyone who goes abomination or blood magic crazy. The vast vast majority of the mages the player sees, yes, and it would've been nice to see more non-crazyface mages, but it's stated right at the end that, if you side with the mages, 'many' of the Kirkwall Circle escape and spread to other Circles. People seem to forget about that scene where Orsino is telling them to flee (presumably through Anders' tunnel? I don't know). All Hawke and the remaining mages are doing is providing cover for the retreat, so they can get away without the Templars biting at their heels. If the majority of the Kirkwall Circle exploded into crazy abominations, they certainly wouldn't have been able to flee to the other Circles in Thedas. And the...I don't know, four, five, six? However many mages the Templars burst in and just cut down, those didn't seem to be popping into abominations or resorting to blood magic.

At that point, the Circle in Kirkwall is the only remaining Circle in the Free Marches. There are a TON of mages in there. We really do only see a fraction of them. It would've been very nice to be able to walk into the Circle tower and see exactly what was going on.

[Chuvvy]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Some people turn into criminals. Let's wipe out humanity.

*the plot of every AI movie ever made ever.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Except it's not a few. It's almost all of them.
I'm just pointing out that two of the worst examples of murderous blood mages in the game aren't even from Kirkwall.

What we as players see is not an accurate representation of the amount of any type of person.  It's a combat-based video game.  We see more dragons than farmers but I'm relatively certain that there's more people who produce food than there is animals so rare they were thought extinct.

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm still miffed I can't kill Grace from the jump. Complete bull that was.

Stupid Grace. >_>

Plot armor for the win.

Hawke:  Maker!  That's blood magic!
Merrill:  But I got it from the nicest demon.  He gave me a fresh cinnamon bun even.
Hawke:  Are you a moron?!  I'm not joining forces with you!  Die!
Princess from Dragon Warrior 1:  But thou must!  Doth thou love me?
Hawke:  W-what the hell?
Princess from Dragon Warrior 1:  But thou must!  Doth thou love me?
Hawke:  This blood magic is making me hallucinate!
Princess from Dragon Warrior 1:  But thou must!  Doth thou love me?
Hawke:  Fine, fine, just make it stop!
Merrill:  Kawaii!

DrGulag wrote...

That's what being human is all about.

"Not all m........ages are abominations but all abominations are mages."

It doesn't matter if only the minority turn into monsters. The very possibility gives society little options. Containment or extermination. I was still ok with the first one but after another blood mage turned my mommy into a walking zombie, I kind of changed my stance on the whole issue.

See, this is the biggest problem with the storytelling in DA2.  We see the mages' atrocities, but we only hear about the templars' atrocities.  The former has much more effect than the latter.  People wind up with a skewed view, often solely because of that awful, awful zombie mom quest.  Seriously, if there was an equally horrifying templar version...  let's say you come to check on Bethany and find her brutally beaten and being raped by a templar, but when you apprach to attack him the camera zooms in on her face and all you see is the terror in her eyes as he slits her throat, then afterwards you find evidence his superiors knew and let him keep murdering...  would you still have the "I'm with you templars, those mages killed my mother!" attitude?  I doubt it.

[DrGulag]

Some people turn into criminals. Let's wipe out humanity.

Oh, wait, that's stupid.

If every human was a walking nuclear device, I would actually advocate killing most of our species to safeguard earth.

Seriously, if there was an equally horrifying templar version...  let's
say you come to check on Bethany and find her brutally beaten and being
raped by a templar, but when you apprach to attack him the camera zooms
in on her face and all you see is the terror in her eyes as he slits
her throat, then afterwards you find evidence his superiors knew and let
him keep murdering...  would you still have the "I'm with you templars,
those mages killed my mother!" attitude?  I doubt it.

Yes I would.

It's not about the actions of individuals but the power at their disposal. Templars are simply adept at killing mages and you always have bad apples inside the army. Rape happens, deal with it. Sentence the perpetrators to death.

Mages can potentially destroy entire towns. They are too dangerous to be left to their own devices.

All things considered, the Chantry has been too lenient on the whole issue. Magic practitioners are constantly escaping from the Circle and cause destruction everywhere. Everytime we come across a free mage in Dragon Age, tragedy ensues lol. 

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 05:06 .

[Lewie]

DrGulag wrote...

The thing with Anders and the Chantry was a little disturbing. Okay, more than a little at first, until I thought about it more. He isn't exactly stable, so expecting him to follow the same ethics as anyone else is perhaps asking a bit much.

He was quite stable and had a logical reasoning for his actions as well.

If I was a in a similar situation I would also fight against people who favoured containment. For example, I would probably shoot rockets towards Israel had I been born in Palestine.

There really is no diplomatic solution to this whole issue concerning mages and templars. Since the game made me choose one or the other, I opted for templars.

ps. Had I the choice, I would have killed everyone and sided with the Qunari though.

A voice of reason, or clarity amidst the madness. It was well placed in the story, great writing again. (The arishok)

Modifié par louise101, 30 mars 2011 - 05:09 .

[Janus382]

I ended up going pro-mage, as Meredith invoking the Rite of Annulment was unwarranted.  "The people will want retribution!".  Fine... it's been 5 minutes... at LEAST wait for the people to voice that opinion... I still wouldn't have agreed with it though.  Or publicly execute Anders, or something.   She's corrupted anyway... bad lyrium idol, blah blah.

As to what to do with mages in the future (since obviously the Circle doesn't work, as evidenced by the epilogue)... I can think of three options.

• Thedas-wide Rite of Annulment.  That is, if the ability for magic is truly and solely passed on through families.  I don't remember hearing about that at all in DA:O, but Hawke's mom said something to that effect this time around.  No more mages = no more mage kids.  Problem solved forever... minus whatever problems a gigantic genocide causes.
• Island Isolation.  Round them up and send them all to Seheron or something (it's the only island I can think of).  Sure, there might be qunari there... but the Arishok already used that treaty as toilet paper, so you might as well strike first (...or second).  After that little hurdle, let the mages build their own sandcastle kingdom far away, and deal with their own problems.  Any mage encounted on the mainlands will be killed.  EDIT:  Mages are free on the island... no templars there... so, free as they can be with an island as a prison.
• Templar Handlers.  For every mage, at least one templar.  Mages get their freedom... though they may dislike the idea of having a templar or two leashed to them at all times.  Templars could strike them down at the first sign of trouble.  The best solution, I think.  Although, problems include templar manpower (although I don't think we've been given any real data on the amount of mages and templars), and templar mistreatment of mages and the resulting anger that might cause to the mage's family and loved ones... but still beats the Circle, in my opinion.

Total freedom would just be madness... even with just a few bad apples, the power they can potentially wield is too great to ignore.

Oh, and abandon Kirkwall... make it a ghost town.  That place is bad news for everyone involved.

Ugh... wait... there's still the "anything goes, we live by different rules" icky Tevinter Imperium, which can potentially muck up all three of those.  My head hurts.

Modifié par Janus382, 30 mars 2011 - 05:15 .