169 réponses à ce sujet

[Alelsa]

DrGulag wrote...
ps. Had I the choice, I would have killed everyone and sided with the Qunari though.

Ha! Me too.  The depressing thing is that I could actually see the Arishok's point so much of the time.  The mindset necessary to follow the Qun is somewhat alien to us, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.  It might be wrong by our values, but who are we to decide?  And lets face it, Kirkwall was a mess - I say give the Qunari a chance and see how they would run things before judging them!

[Rifneno]

DrGulag wrote...

Some people turn into criminals. Let's wipe out humanity.

Oh, wait, that's stupid.

If every human was a walking nuclear device, I would actually advocate killing most of our species to safeguard earth.

*cough*  We're dangerously close to passing the line from "gross exaggeration" to "flat out lie."  What has a single mage done to cause the equivilent of about ten million tons of TNT?  The only thing that even compares in DAO is unleashing the darkspawn, and the chances that the Chantry's story is true is only slightly higher than the chance we'll find out canon Isabela is a virgin.  Even then, it was a lot more than one mage.  The blasts at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the earliest models, made in a rush for the war, and are barely sparklers compared to the more powerful ones built only a few decades later.  No mage could begin to compare to the destruction of even those miniscule ones, let alone the "worldwide enviormental disaster" versions that we've never seen used.

[DrGulag]

It took one abomination to bring down an entire village like RedCliffe. If your omnipotent Warden decides not to interfere, everyone dies.

And Thedas seems to be a rather small place in all honesty.

I'd say one pride demon (DA2 version) in all its glory is comparable to a rather big explosion when you consider what kind of destruction it can cause.

If there was way to "nuke the fade", that would be the best thing to ever happen.

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Demons can possess regular people as well. They can even possess corpses (see: Revanants).

Your solution is extreme and unnuanced.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 30 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[Camilladilla]

DrGulag wrote...

It took one abomination to bring down an entire village like RedCliffe. If your omnipotent Warden decides not to interfere, everyone dies.

And maybe if the system wasn't so lopsided and oppressive towards mages and their families, Isolde wouldn't have been so desperate to keep Connor away from proper training? Don't get me wrong, I'm not in the camp of "MAGES SHOULD BE ABLE TO WONDER FREE", but that entire Redcliffe situation was a product of the system as well.

[DrGulag]

Demons can possess regular people as well. They can even possess corpses (see: Revanants).

Haven't seen it happen with normal people altough desire demons have been known to corrupt individuals from the outside (Templar in the circle tower, that little girl and her cat etc).

Destroying all the corpses should remove the Revenant problem. I always wondered why that wasn't a common practice considering how powerful those beings were. Annoying demons, always trying to stop me from getting that best loot. 

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[Camilladilla]

DrGulag wrote...

Demons can possess regular people as well. They can even possess corpses (see: Revanants).

Haven't seen it happen with normal people.

Destroying all the corpses should remove the Revenant problem. I always wondered why that wasn't a common practice considering how powerful those beings were.

They can possess trees as well.

[DrGulag]

They can possess trees as well.

Burn the forests.

Altough that might pose a problem as far as housing is considered. Should provide more work for dwarves though.

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 05:51 .

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

Catt128 wrote...

It's more of an education problem. Blood magic is there, it's like drugs or sex. They should give mages information about the risks it entails or ways to deal with demons.

Unlike Uldred, most of the blood mages in Kirkwall turned to blood magic as a mean  to survive. I know i'd do the same if my life is in danger.

Templars are lazy. "Oh, when **** gets nasty, just call for the right of anulement" that or make them all tranquil. How is that any better than blowing up a chantry? The crime is still there.

bonus: this is what a templar sees with his eyes closed: www.youtube.com/watch

No, the Templar's aren't lazy.  Just your reasoning.  '**** gets nasty, just call for the right of annulment'.  How's that better than blowing up a chantry.' you said.

 Well, a couple dozen mages getting out of control can kill hundreds of people.  So, 24 mages fighting for the right to summon demons and traffic in the occult dying versus hundreds of people going about their day to day lives getting slaughtered in the crossfire?  Sorry, mages got to die.  How's it worse than blowing up a chantry?  Well, the people in the chantry are reading and praying and have no potential to hurt anyone.  The mages have the power to level a city block and are under temptation of possession at any given moment.  Do the math.  Give up the moral relevancy and try being a human being. 

[Kartikeya]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

Catt128 wrote...

It's more of an education problem. Blood magic is there, it's like drugs or sex. They should give mages information about the risks it entails or ways to deal with demons.

Unlike Uldred, most of the blood mages in Kirkwall turned to blood magic as a mean  to survive. I know i'd do the same if my life is in danger.

Templars are lazy. "Oh, when **** gets nasty, just call for the right of anulement" that or make them all tranquil. How is that any better than blowing up a chantry? The crime is still there.

bonus: this is what a templar sees with his eyes closed: www.youtube.com/watch

No, the Templar's aren't lazy.  Just your reasoning.  '**** gets nasty, just call for the right of annulment'.  How's that better than blowing up a chantry.' you said.

 Well, a couple dozen mages getting out of control can kill hundreds of people.  So, 24 mages fighting for the right to summon demons and traffic in the occult dying versus hundreds of people going about their day to day lives getting slaughtered in the crossfire?  Sorry, mages got to die.  How's it worse than blowing up a chantry?  Well, the people in the chantry are reading and praying and have no potential to hurt anyone.  The mages have the power to level a city block and are under temptation of possession at any given moment.  Do the math.  Give up the moral relevancy and try being a human being. 

From the codex entry:


Three months later, the mages summoned a demon and turned it loose against their templar watchers. Demons, however, are not easily controlled. After killing the first wave of templars who tried to contain it, the demon took possession of one of its summoners. The resulting abomination slaughtered Templars and mages both before escaping into the countryside.
The grand cleric sent a legion of templars to hunt the fugitive. They killed the abomination a year later, but by that time it had slain 70 people.

70 people in a year is horrible, but it's not 'hundreds', and this is the situation that was bad enough to come up with the Rite to begin with. Mages are dangerous enough without exaggerating the hell out of their capabilities.

[DrGulag]

70 people in a year is horrible, but it's not 'hundreds', and this is the situation that was bad enough to come up with the Rite to begin with. Mages are dangerous enough without exaggerating the hell out of their capabilities.

That's probably more people I ever saw in Kirkwall (and according to the guard in Act 1, it was supposed to be full of people) or Denerim.

Thedas needs to have more Isabelas and less Alistairs I suppose (or perhaps just a new engine that can be used to design better cities) <_<

Modifié par DrGulag, 30 mars 2011 - 06:15 .

[Kartikeya]

It's probably more people than I saw in the Imperial City in Oblivion, and definitely more than I saw on the Citadel in Mass Effect, but I don't really expect video games to render the actual population of cities on-screen.

[thebrute7]

Of course we never see the population of the gallows. Look at it. It's HUGE. We see dozens of blood mages in DA II but hundreds if not a couple thousand mages must live in the gallows. I just can't see my way through supporting the wholesale slaughter of hundreds of mages on account of teh actions of 1 man (Anders). Of course I play mages almost exclusively and agree with Anders, but honestly, Meredith is blaming the wrong people. Kill Anders, not Annul the whole Circle.

[rwscissors702]

Hmm... I'd have listed Alain with the dubious mages. He helps kidnap someone close to you, his regret seems to be something along the lines of sorry it's you I'm crossing. I'm all for second chances, I'm a little iffy on thirds... I tell Cullen "put 'em all to the sword". Kirkwall needs a good Sacred March, too much blood magic and demon summoning going on.

[FedericoV]

You know, I've reached the ending quest just yesterday and I've got a very difficult time taking sides. I must have realoded the dialogue before the confrontantion with Anders almost 10 times and I've changed my position every time. Yes, it's hard to be pro mage because of the blood magic issue... but at end even one of my best friend is a blood mage. And I've studied it too, even if I never practiced it.

But playing as a mage it's really out of charachter to be pro templars. I mean, my parents lived on the run all of their life because of templars and the chantry. And more over it's clear that mage circles are not working as a solution to the problems the presence of magic brings and that the Chantry is based on superstitions and false myths that causes only misery (imho, Andraste was a "good" abomination).

I know that there are many templars who have good inclination like Cullen, but I could not side with a crazy **** like Meredith. I could not trust Orsino and Kirkwall circle as well. I know that Orsino was somewhat linked with the killer of my mother (see the letter signed with a O. in the killer warehouse) and I've seen that 2 mages out of 3 in Kirkwall have ties to blood magic. But I could allways solve the inner problems of the circle on a second moment, while it was impossible to do the same with Meredith.

The rite of annullment was not justified because there were many innocents in the circle (if you play the templar side, even Cullen point out that the situation in the mage circle of Thedas was worst and that they have avoided it). The only one who has to pay for Elthina's death was Anders and I choose to put him out of his misery. Mind, I have not do it at cold blood. He was a victim of the system, a victim of Justice and a victim of the struggle between Orsino and Meredith too. Still, he has to pay for killing the only good person in Kirkwall (uneffective, but still good).

The only problem I have with the final is that takind sides was really out of charachter for me and that it was not consequent with how I've played my charachter. I mean, DA2 was the first RPG in my life where playing the neutral charachter was actually fun and rewarding just like the other options if not more so. And the final just do not aknowledge it in any way. There should have been a neutral option. Tragic, sad, unhappy, as you like. But still, another option.

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 mars 2011 - 07:26 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...
 How's it worse than blowing up a chantry?  Well, the people in the chantry are reading and praying and have no potential to hurt anyone.  The mages have the power to level a city block and are under temptation of possession at any given moment.  Do the math.  Give up the moral relevancy and try being a human being. 

The Grand Cleric has the power to order all the templars to execute every being in Kirkwall. Clearly she ought to be executed. So should any other person who has the potential to do anything awful.

I mean, mindless mass murder is pretty much the definition of being a "human being," right?

Sigh. How is the answer to the problem that "these people could potentially kill people" killing them? I mean, good grief. Maybe they're all just exploding bodies to you, but this is psychotic.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 30 mars 2011 - 08:16 .

[elearon1]

Haussier wrote... in kirkwall both blood magic is prevelant and the veil is thin.

This is the issue right there - the special circumstances of Kirkwall make running into blood mages and abominations far more likely ... hell, the Tevinters had purposefully weakned the veil in the city for some nefarious purpose and ancient Tevinter tomes were being found in the undercity and sold on the streets by clueless merchants.  So, there you have the veil so thin the demons are already scratching through the walls, the tempation of forbidden magical texts floating around the city, and all the pressures being put on the circle by the Templars.  (not to mention the very real possibility another, outside influence, is attempting to stir things up in the city of chains - according to Leliana)

Kirkwall's mages are by no means meant to represent the normal behavior of a circle, but a circle fighting many extreme influences. 

[Mnemnosyne]

By the time I met Meredith in the courtyard of the Gallows, even as a mage, I really just wanted an option to go, "You were right! I'm sorry, I was wrong! KILL THEM ALL!" Because after having to fight Orsino, then fight my way through a whole bunch of abominations and demons, without ANY mages backing me up or helping me, I was finding it really hard to believe that there were more than two or three good mages in this entire bleeding city, and they were all in my party.

Doesn't necessarily extend to any other cities or Circles of Magi, but Kirkwall?  Hell yes, they seem to be ready for the Rite of Annulment.  Whether that was because of Meredith and her oppression doesn't matter by that point, they're all crazy and need to be ended.

Modifié par Koyasha, 30 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[NamiraWilhelm]

Its near impossible to encounter a good mage who doesnt go batsh!t and reveal blood mage demon dabbling qualities. Okay they've been pushed but it seems very deliberate that we see so much bad in the mages. And Anders... why did they have to make him a terrorist? i romanced him so stuck by him but i didnt agree with what i had to say to keep him by my side. And just when you thought you could admire Orsino! If i could have my own way i probably would have sod off since i dont agree with either of them.

Cant wait to find out whats due to occur next though....

[FedericoV]

Koyasha wrote...

By the time I met Meredith in the courtyard of the Gallows, even as a mage, I really just wanted an option to go, "You were right! I'm sorry, I was wrong! KILL THEM ALL!" Because after having to fight Orsino, then fight my way through a whole bunch of abominations and demons, without ANY mages backing me up or helping me, I was finding it really hard to believe that there were more than two or three good mages in this entire bleeding city, and they were all in my party.

It's meant to let you feel that way. No matter what you do, IT'S WRONG. Try the other way and you'll feel the same especially as a mage. I tried the templar solution and arrived at the Gallows. By the time I heard Meredith speech about magic I decided that no matter what Kirkwall circle is, she was plain wrong and one of the sources of the problem. As a mage, I could not be her ally or the ally of the chantry.

Honestly, I think that the writers have gone too far in the last phase of the game. They wanted to make a literal/philosophical point and not to give us the chance to play the game how we wanted. In the "Anders/Chantry scene", the options I had felt like I was not free anymore to play my charachter.

Mind, the story is good and nuanced and all, but still, it felt like in that point is not MY game anymore and it becomes the game of the writers.

Personally, I would have never sided with anyone of the contenders. Kirkwall templars/chantry were beyond redemption (see act. 2). Kirkwall circle mages were beyond redemption. My charachter was too smart to believe in a peacefull solution. I would have killed both leaders and everyone that gets in my way, in the style of Ellric of Melnibone. If all my friends would have lived me because of my choice, if I had to die because of them, I would have accepted it gladly.

Instead, I'm forced to eat a crap sandwich and I can only choose if I want tomatoes or onions as condiment... the problem is not the crap sandwich in itself at the end but in MY RP GAME I want to choose the condiment.

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 mars 2011 - 10:10 .

[Rifneno]

Kartikeya wrote...

70 people in a year is horrible, but it's not 'hundreds', and this is the situation that was bad enough to come up with the Rite to begin with. Mages are dangerous enough without exaggerating the hell out of their capabilities.

Well geez, just tie their hands why don't you?  
Seriously though, they have nothing but vague descriptions of extraordinary cases and the point of view of the Warden/Hawke who are on pre-made video game gauntlets.  There is no actual scientific data telling us the danger mages actually pose.  So we get laughable analogies involving nuclear bombs and stuff.  Taking the Chantry's fearmongering propaganda seriously is just silly.  Pointing out the dangers of a mage that killed 70 people is like pointing out the danger of emo high schoolers by pointing out a few psychos who shot up their schools.  Yeah, ok, it happens... but how often and how much do various outside factors effect the chances?  Sorry but I think more than a religion's word is needed to justify oppressing and abusing a minority.

[MICHELLE7]

As to the OP...I think that how you play the game really determines exactly what you find out about each character whether they be mage or templar and what direction they might go. I didn't know until way later that Gascard DuPuis was an associate of the guy who kills your mother...4th time I think. I noticed on my pro-templar playthrough and my more neutral playthrough I found more evil templars than on my pro-mage playthrough. Alain even said something about the templars "making them (the mages) do things. I only got that line one time. And one of Anders conversations talks about the templars raping the mages and that he(Anders) had gotten off lucky in that department. I think it takes multiple playthroughs to get a full picture.

[KodiakAsh]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Instead all we're given is multiple "Grace" style characters time after time. "Oh I would never use Blood Magic, it's wrong and bad!" *few minutes later* "RAWR Blood Magic demons gooooo!"

It's because they become abominations a few minutes later. The Veil is thin: the demons are constantly whispering to them. They resist as they can, but abuse and torture by the templars makes it difficult. In their isolated cells, demons are their only company. Then, when pushed to the brink of death and already half crazy, is it any wonder they say "ok fine, I accept your deal!" when they have nothing left to lose?

I don't know why people continually insisting on blaming the innocent mages for all this. Anders is insane, but that's because he's already an abomination.

I don't know why people continually think these people are innocent.  Being tortured doesn't give you a free pass to do whatever you want.

The world is a harsh one, you don't have to play a mage to have awful things happen.  Look at Hawke and his story.  Sister/Bro dead.  Mama down.  How much other suffering does he go through constantly under the stress of dealing with al lthese things.  Same goes for any number of other people and the trials and tribulations of those people.  The difference is these people have no terrible power to turn to when the chips are down.  You wouldn't kill a whole population if someone is a murderer because they can't just /wrist and unleash demon apocalypse #862341.

On a more real note, there are countless examples throughout our own history of corrupting influence of having power over individuals.  One only has to open a history book to see the results of what mismanaged power can do.

That all said, I don't like the templars nor do I care for them as a solution.  Yes, they can take things to the extreme.  Yes, there are bad elements in their ranks that further the problem.  However at the same time every time a blood mage pops out and goes on a killing spree it's hard to not see their purpose.

Worse, when you see EVERY mage turn to blood magic with zero redeemining characters it's really hard to be pro mage when they give you absolutely nothing to be pro about.  Ella in the caverns being made tranquil and we intervene, hey here we go!  An innocent mage under duress from an insane templar and doesn't summon demons or do blood magic to defend herself.  I can get behind that mage and be pro mage for a mage like that.  There just aren't enough redeeming characters in the game to get behind to really take the pro mage stance.  Clearly by design the game intended to have awful elements in both sides, and really I think everyone can agree there's horrible elements in each camp that are furthering the problem.  However there were, sadly, far more redeeming qualities to the Templars this game than the mages.

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...
I may be confusing you with someone else, but didn't you argue in one of the qunari threads thats you would rather be free and live like **** than have a nice/comfortable life and have choice taken away from you?

Cause it sounds like you're going down the comfy/choice-free route in that quote, and I'd like to know what the difference is.

You're not confusing me. There's two mayor differences though -
1)The templars, for better or worse, do not care what I think, and to an extend even what I say, as long as I can restrain myself enough to not light anyone on fire. In a circle, a compared to the average thedas citizen relatively happy life of scholarship is possible. Being brainwashed by the qun (i.e abandoning the very things that make you different from animals) is, at the very best of times, a fate ten times worse then death.

2) The Qunari do it to everyone, for no other reason then to fuel their selfrighteous, moronic Hubris. As an untrained mage however, I run a very real risk of a) getting possessed and lighting everyone I like on fire anc c) getting murdered by templars. I like neither of those things, and unlike the Qun, the circles work to an extent, and said training is actually necessary.

[Suron]

If nothing else the circle should exist to TEACH THE MAGES to control themselves, the dangers, and weed out the "evil" ones when possible (which won't be always or even most of the time but stopping 1 out of even 100 can save many times more lives.)

once they "graduate" they are free to go about their lives. Policed by other Mages and the Templars.

And of course even when they're in the Circle they have more freedoms..and not treated like criminals. The Circle should be a teaching platform.