51 réponses à ce sujet

[Camenae]

First of all, I have a problem that the ideal of Justice can be corrupted by a single person.  A selfish, self-righteous piece of ****?  That, I can see being "corrupted."  Which brings me to my next point.

Play your "But I'm a SPIRIT, not a DEMON" card all you want.  Sure you'll say that merging was Anders' choice, but it was hardly an informed decision.  Seriously, you saying you're not a demon is like EA saying the DRM they put on DA2 is totally not SecuROM.  Both make me lol.

How are you not a demon if you purposefully overcome a host's will and make the host do things he doesn't want to do?  The fact that you only do it *sometimes*....If a serial killer kills someone every day and skips a day here and there, is he all of a sudden NOT a murderer?  You only act just like a demon SOMETIMES?  That makes me feel so much better.

And disapproving of Anders' relationship with Hawke?  Wow you're really making yourself at home there aren't you?  Shut the hell up and just be grateful that Anders even allowed you to continue existing in this world.  I'm pretty sure that when you talked about this whole merging thing with Anders, you made him think that he'd still retain full control and be his old self.  Bet you didn't say that you're going to be busybodying over his every decision, personal or not, like you're his Asian mother or something.

Where are you, Father Merrin?  I need you.

[Maria Caliban]

Being angry at Justice is like raging at a can of Coke or being angry at a keyboard for making clickity sounds.

Camenae wrote...

...like you're his Asian mother or something.

classy.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Grissium]

They have said several times in the lore that the difference between demons and spirits is demons lust after the "real world" where spirits are content doing their thing in the fade. In Awakening Justice mentions several times that the real world has much more going on with it than he realized. So basically in short at some point Justice has crossed that line between spirit and demon because Justice doesn't really seem to want to go back to the fade and be what it was. Anders is, straight up, an abomination now. The only difference is whatever Justice has become still likes to think it's not a demon, so most of the time it kinda lets Anders do what he wants.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Didn't Justice say he'd never possess someone?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 28 mars 2011 - 03:56 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

He did say he'd never set up roots in a living host, however. If you're a spirit of Justice living in a rotting corpse with no way to get home and a friend invites you into his body to wage an unending crusade against injustice.. I figure it's pretty obvious why Justice chose to do it. Maybe he believed he was capable of maintaining a balance with Anders or maybe being outside of the Fade so long affected his better judgement.
Either way. Bad plan obviously.

And i always differentiated Demons and Spirits by their hungers.. Demons feed of the darkest sins humanity has to offer.. Spirits embrace and embody the greatest virtues. So i consider Justice to be a demon now, as he's feeding off Anders with his hate and desire for freedom.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 28 mars 2011 - 04:01 .

[Camenae]

Maria Caliban wrote... 

Camenae wrote...

...like you're his Asian mother or something.

classy.

Haha I'm Asian myself, and it's just how Justice disapproved of Hawke reminded me of how my own mother disapproved of just about every boyfriend I've ever had. 

[SirLysander]

Grissium is right - watch how Merrill refers to the entity aiding her as "Spirit" and "Demon" nearly interchangeably.

There's a two-step test for determining if something's a Spirit, it seems. First, location: if in the Fade, it MIGHT be a Spirit, so check it's motive. If the motive includes "get out of the Fade," no mater how tangentially; that's no Spirit, commence nuking from orbit.

[Saboteur-6]

I like the theory of Justice being influenced by Anders as a result of The Joining ritual Anders underwent becoming a Grey Warden. It's the only way I can swallow the bitter "plot pill" that decided to magically turn Justice into Vengeance.

[hoorayforicecream]

I thought of it more like Justice isn't necessarily the entire driving principle, it's just the one that it identifies most with.

[dahoughtonuk]

Actually my theory is Justice was already on the downward slide in Awakening, for he lacked mercy. And wasn't willing to admit he was. Anders should have known better when Justice said he couldn't become a demon. When the correct answer would be yes he could. 

"Demon's are spirit's perverted by their desires."

"So you could become a demon?"

"No."

But Justice was already linked to pride and rage, thus he was already Vengeance.

[ReallyRue]

I imagine the blame is equal parts Anders and Justice. As a mage, he's hardly uninformed about the dangers of the Fade and its residents.
If Justice told Anders he couldn't become a demon, and Anders didn't realise that there was obviously more to it (especially with the 'perverted by desires' thing), then he would have to be incredibly naive.

[Grissium]

Well from Justices point of view he is correct. He was not interested in the mortal world.... at first. Remember Justice thinks he is a good guy, and that he is not a demon. He is like an addict that at first uses his kick recreationally, he sees the hard core junkies (demons) and goes "I'm not like them." But as he has spent more time in the mortal world he has used his kick more and more often. So to him he can look at demons and go "See i'm not like that." Even when he is more or less completely acting like a demon. The only line he really hasn't crossed yet is the full blown take over of the body, but as we see as the story progresses that gets more and more put to the side as things progress.

I guess what I'm trying to say is Justice didn't really lie to Anders, he just wasn't aware of what he was becoming, and what he would become by joining with a living body.  I don't really blame the both of them for making that decision, I blame the both of them for what came from that decision.  It's not really fair, but thats life.

Justice is a tragic figure it's sad... and in all honestly I should have killed him at the end of my play through, the only reason I spared him was I needed a healer. He was more useful to me alive rather than dead... at that time. And if they did a DLC where I could track Anders down as Hawke and pass a "final judgment" on him when the world is not about to end, I would so buy it and kill his stupid face.

Modifié par Grissium, 28 mars 2011 - 07:08 .

[Camenae]

I like your junkie analogy.

I also think Justice knew he was becoming more and more like a demon. That's why he bristles and gets so defensive when you do call him out for being a demon. He [possibly] kills Ella just because she unknowingly called him a demon. Jeez, defensive much?

[Sarah1281]

Vech24 wrote...

I like the theory of Justice being influenced by Anders as a result of The Joining ritual Anders underwent becoming a Grey Warden. It's the only way I can swallow the bitter "plot pill" that decided to magically turn Justice into Vengeance.

Of course Justice is influenced by Anders when they merge. Anders is very open about that. Why does the fact that Anders is a Grey Warden factor into this at all? 

[LobselVith8]

I never saw Anders or Justice as selfish or self-righteous. Plenty of people disagree about what "he" ultimately did, but Justice thought the mages should be freed from the Chantry. Anders wanted to be free from the Chantry. I suppose you can argue about the methods, but Justice's goal is ultimately the same as it was when he discussed it with Anders in Amaranthine - ending the plight of the mages of the Circles.

[dahoughtonuk]

What Grissum said is very much my thinking. Except that the reason he isn't aware is because he can't admit it even to himself.

[Medhia Nox]

Well - given that the "not narcissistic" Anders says: "When I die I'll be famous!" (my paraphrasing) - I think keeping him alive is the best thing.

As for Justice - I am beginning to dislike fantasy immensely. If "Justice" were meant to be a metaphor - something not separate from Anders, and he converted it as a "morality tale" about how men get blinded by their actions - I could appreciate his story.

But IF Bioware were trying to tell that tale - they've confused it by making Justice a "spirit". That leaves people confused and thinking that it, not Anders, is to blame for Ander's actions.

It is, in my opinion, a failure the genre is embracing. Way too much magic junk destroying the ability to actually discuss the topics in the medium.

---

Anders, to me, is a man completely blinded by his cause. He believes that any action, no matter how debase, is worth "mage freedom."

The only way it would become tragic (as the Greeks understand it) is if the very result he seeks "mage freedom" is destroyed by his actions. If his zealous terrorism destroys the freedom of mages - and he watches as mages everywhere suffer even more because of what he did - that is genuine literary tragedy.

The Twinkie Defense Anders - that's just fantasy junk.

[LadyJaneGrey]

@ Grissium  Good answer.

Justice's conversations always made me more than a little nervous in Awakening.  It especially hit when my Warden could convince him to leave Amaranthine to burn.  If he truly embodied Justice or was committed to it, his objection should not have been overcome in one line.

[Beerfish]

You should be complaining that the stupid cat person corrupted Justice. If Anders was a dog person all of these problems could have been avoided. Hawke, a dog person and he/she is awesome. Anders a cat person.....and well he took on the personality of a cat!

[Medhia Nox]

@Beerfish - this make speaks profound wisdom.

It's a scientific fact that dogs > cats.

[Camenae]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never saw Anders or Justice as selfish or self-righteous. Plenty of people disagree about what "he" ultimately did, but Justice thought the mages should be freed from the Chantry. Anders wanted to be free from the Chantry. I suppose you can argue about the methods, but Justice's goal is ultimately the same as it was when he discussed it with Anders in Amaranthine - ending the plight of the mages of the Circles.

I apologize if I wasn't being clear in my OP, but this thread is not about mages vs templars and I would hate to see it evolve into one such, because it seems like every other thread already does. 

"Justice is in denial about being a demon" and "Justice/Anders is justified in what they did later" are two different topics, and for this thread I'm only interested in the former.

[Camenae]

Beerfish wrote...

You should be complaining that the stupid cat person corrupted Justice. If Anders was a dog person all of these problems could have been avoided. Hawke, a dog person and he/she is awesome. Anders a cat person.....and well he took on the personality of a cat!

: ( But I love my twin cats...

[Ivers0803]

I have noticed that Justice tends to become completely absorbed in one injustice at a time. In awakening it was the Darkspawn DA2 the templars.

[Torax]

I do like how the 2 warrior spirits that you come across between Origins and DA2 take great offense at your accusing them of being demons. Valor gets angry at the implication. Justice considers himself in the right about as much as the Qunari do. Justice is blind, not perfect and is completely fallible. It's his belief that he is in the right and can do wrongs to get his goals complete which turned him into Vengeance the Demon.

Modifié par Torax, 28 mars 2011 - 10:22 .

[Silveryne]

I'm with my homeboy Thucydides on this one. Not with you.

There is no universal justice. Nature does not have an idea of justice. The Spartans are not going to sail to your sad little island to defend it. The gods are not going to drop out of the sky and punish someone who wrongs you. Justice is something that is made by people -- and more specifically, the powerful -- not a thing that exists in the world as an actual force.

Do you think that the archaic version of justice, "an eye for an eye" as per the Code of Hammurabi would stand today? Many would consider ripping the eyes out of a man who blinded your slave an act of vengeance, not one of justice. Today, justice might mean standing trial instead of being blinded.

That's the distinction that the game tries to make here. There is no universal ideal of justice, beyond what the majority of a culture or people have in their heads. Anders' idea of justice was hurting the templars when they hurt others. That was why justice became "corrupt", because the ideal changed.