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[Sarah1281]

Ivers0803 wrote...

I have noticed that Justice tends to become completely absorbed in one injustice at a time. In awakening it was the Darkspawn DA2 the templars.

Clearly he has a short attention span since he never finished with those darkspawn.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silveryne - I suppose it would depend on how you define "justice".

Nature might be the greatest arbitrator of "justice" - "It rains upon the just and unjust alike."

Nature is concerned only with the "Natural Order" - which, being far greater than the relevancy of all men let alone, one man - it simply does that which it was "designed" to do. (Loaded word, not interested in a discourse on if there was a designer.)

I believe that "justice" of a form can be ascertained by nature.

[Ivers0803]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ivers0803 wrote...

I have noticed that Justice tends to become completely absorbed in one injustice at a time. In awakening it was the Darkspawn DA2 the templars.

Clearly he has a short attention span since he never finished with those darkspawn.

The mother sent the darkspawn to kill kirstoff and the mother is dead, and honestly what else does he have to do? Play eye spy with Anders?

[Kriselia]

You know who you should really be angry at? Nathaniel.
He's the one that put the idea in Justice's head in the first place.

[Camenae]

Kriselia wrote...

You know who you should really be angry at? Nathaniel.
He's the one that put the idea in Justice's head in the first place.

Really?  How does this happen?  I don't remember too much about Awakening's party banter.
 

[Kyriani Agrivar]

Not for nothing but I think many people just don't understand the fact that there really isn't a Justice/Vengeance to blame. Anders and the Spirit of Justice merged. They are one being. Anders isn't "possessed". He even says so in one of his dialogues with you. They aren't separate beings anymore.

The very essence of justice became vengeance when it merged with Anders because of his own anger and pain over what happened throughout his life. When you see "Justice" come out its not Anders suddenly "going away" and someone else is at the wheel. What you see is Anders losing control of his own anger and resentment. The essence of Justice/Vengeance is merely fueling that anger making far more overblown than it might have been if they were not merged.

I'm a big Anders/Mage advocate but I would never let Anders try to blame anything he does on Justice and I truly believe he never would because he knows they are one and the same now. You have to understand that even though Anders may refer to Justice in the third person he knows (and states) they are one. "Justice" not approving of the relationship (if there is one) is Anders really saying "there's a part of me that finds you distracting from my single minded goal and doesn't think this is a good idea". He isn't saying "some spirit in my head says being with you is distracting me from my goals".

Anders is never forced by some spirit to do anything he doesn't want (or feels he needs) to do in Dragon Age 2. Even when he almost kills that mage you rescue from the templars... thats all Anders... maybe Anders out of control and angry because he saw her cowering to the templars and begging to not be made tranquil and willing to do anything they wanted... but Anders nonetheless.

I know I am taking liberties here in stating that but I honestly believe it to be true and I'd be willing to bet Anders's writer would agree with my assessment.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 29 mars 2011 - 12:57 .

[Kriselia]

Camenae wrote...

Kriselia wrote...

You know who you should really be angry at? Nathaniel.
He's the one that put the idea in Justice's head in the first place.

Really?  How does this happen?  I don't remember too much about Awakening's party banter.
 

Well, it started like this

• Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
• Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
• Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?

and then ended like this

• Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.

So thanks a lot Nathaniel You can read the full thing on http://dragonage.wik...iel_and_Justice

[Vhalkyrie]

So Wynne is the only abomination that isn't bonkers.

[LobselVith8]

Camenae wrote...

I apologize if I wasn't being clear in my OP, but this thread is not about mages vs templars and I would hate to see it evolve into one such, because it seems like every other thread already does. 

"Justice is in denial about being a demon" and "Justice/Anders is justified in what they did later" are two different topics, and for this thread I'm only interested in the former.

Nothing I said addressed the dicotomy between who is right and wrong regarding mages, it expressed that Justice had the same intent in Amaranthine that he does now that he has a symbiotic relationship with Anders. Furthermore, I never expressed whether he was right or wrong, or even justified - all I said was that his goal honestly hasn't changed since he spoke to Anders in Kristoff's body. If his goals never waivered, I don't see why he's viewed as a demon for having the same goals as he did before he merged with Anders.

[Camenae]

Because Anders is MY boyfriend and I think it's creepy some other dude/spirit/demon/it/whatever is always there.

[Jayphil]

Justice If I recall in Awakening, only arrived when he heard the plight of the people in the fade "trapped by the baroness" now he is a righteous spirit, and his cause is true since these people were trapped byt hat evil witch. and accompanying the warden in his campaign if you did his quests you would know that he thought it was wrong to feel "longing" and a hint of envy for the love Aura had for kristoff the body he now posseses.

The warden, had shown justice that There IS something worthy of looking after for in the Mortal realm, that not all mortals cling on to temptations of demons and evil... had he entered the Warden Justice would have been a force of righteousness, Warden would be a totall badass..

now we move on to the guy he inhabited, Anders, no sense of righteousness, just wants to "exist" , awakenings he was all about free from templars that mages need to live freely, but in convos with him i dont recall him saying anything about being responsible, just being free being able to do what he wants, so IMO its not really entirely justice's fault what happened and how his essence got corrupted its entirely on anders, his experience with the templars (personal) how he labelled EVERY templar bad all based on personal bias..

but if you guys want to talk about t spirits inhabitting mortal beings its gotta be WYNNE vs ANDERS!
Wynne was able to control and not pervert the spirit that has inhabited or has been watching her. and this spirit was with her all her life (her stating that she was being watche din the fade) while it took anders only a year or less to screw up justice..

just goes to show how some of Ander's beliefs and points are so flawed.. I would like a face off between Wynne and Anders

Modifié par Jayphil, 29 mars 2011 - 06:17 .

[Kyriani Agrivar]

Camenae wrote...

Because Anders is MY boyfriend and I think it's creepy some other dude/spirit/demon/it/whatever is always there.

There really isn't anyone else there. If you read my previous post you'll understand, but for a tldr, there is no more Justice. When Anders and Justice merged they became a new individual.

Justice and Anders do not have conversations in Anders's head. Justice does not force Anders to do anything. Anders is responsible for every action he takes. The only thing that Justice affects about Anders is the magnitude of his emotions... particularly in regards to the plight of mages and the injustices he sees being perpetrated upon them.

Being merged with Justice makes Anders more single minded in trying to fight those injustices. It magnifies his anger when he's confronted with those attrocities.

Modifié par Kyriani Agrivar, 29 mars 2011 - 07:43 .

[Infaela]

Kyriani Agrivar wrote...

There really isn't anyone else there. If you read my previous post you'll understand, but for a tldr, there is no more Justice. When Anders and Justice merged they became a new individual.

Justice and Anders do not have conversations in Anders's head. Justice does not force Anders to do anything. Anders is responsible for every action he takes. The only thing that Justice affects about Anders is the magnitude of his emotions... particularly in regards to the plight of mages and the injustices he sees being perpetrated upon them.

Being merged with Justice makes Anders more single minded in trying to fight those injustices. It magnifies his anger when he's confronted with those attrocities.

That's a possibility, but Anders isn't exactly a reliable resource on what's going on in his head.  No one is.  He may describe Justice as being completely a part of him, but that doesn't mean he's correct.  It also wouldn't mean that Justice is necessarily submerged in the way you describe, relegated to the role of magnifying certain emotions. 

The way humans think isn't terribly simple.  The things that we do and say are often a result of a bunch of different impulses, both conflicting and complementary.  How would Anders, or anyone, know if some of those impulses came from a foreign mind trapped inside his?  Merged but still distinct parts of a whole?  There's no reason to think Justice's thoughts wouldn't seem like Anders' own to him, except the ones Justice thoughtfully prefaces with "Justice speaking".

I think one of the interesting (and sad) things about the character is that it isn't really clear how much of what he does comes from him and how much doesn't.

Edit: Also, I completely forgot, but there's that bit in the fade where Justice/Vengeance definitely comes across as a distinct personality.  Maybe part of a larger whole, but definitely still distinct.

Modifié par Infaela, 29 mars 2011 - 08:10 .

[Critical Miss]

Infaela wrote...

Edit: Also, I completely forgot, but there's that bit in the fade where Justice/Vengeance definitely comes across as a distinct personality.  Maybe part of a larger whole, but definitely still distinct.

Are you talking about the fade episode in DA2? I'm wondering what happens to Anders if you take him into the fade to help the half-elven boy because I leave him behind. Does it change Anders in some way for the rest of the game if you take him into the fade?

[Kyriani Agrivar]

Critical Miss wrote...

Infaela wrote...

Edit: Also, I completely forgot, but there's that bit in the fade where Justice/Vengeance definitely comes across as a distinct personality.  Maybe part of a larger whole, but definitely still distinct.

Are you talking about the fade episode in DA2? I'm wondering what happens to Anders if you take him into the fade to help the half-elven boy because I leave him behind. Does it change Anders in some way for the rest of the game if you take him into the fade?

it doesn't change him... but while you are within the fade Anders is permanently in "justice" mode... he has the glowy eyes and voice. He's back to normal once you leave.

[Torax]

Critical Miss wrote...

Infaela wrote...

Edit: Also, I completely forgot, but there's that bit in the fade where Justice/Vengeance definitely comes across as a distinct personality.  Maybe part of a larger whole, but definitely still distinct.

Are you talking about the fade episode in DA2? I'm wondering what happens to Anders if you take him into the fade to help the half-elven boy because I leave him behind. Does it change Anders in some way for the rest of the game if you take him into the fade?

Anders does comment on it later though. I clicked on him and he said how he is afraid to enter the fade again because he has no control there. Justice takes over in the fade. Basically the fade is like his nightmare in the normal world. Make sense?

[Sylvanpyxie]

Despite what Anders kept trying to constantly tell my Hawke, i still consider him to be possessed.. Even more so now that i've finished my Rivalry Romance with him.

Anders constantly losing control of himself due to a Spirit inside of his body, almost killing someone he was trying to protect. Justice taking over and yelling at Hawke when Anders is starting to agree with His/Her argument that his attitude towards Justice and the Templars is wrong and dangerous. Banter between party members also implies it's possession.

Anders might tell you otherwise.. But the entire game you see him losing control of his emotions, his mind and his body, all because of Justice.

I can understand why people see the whole "one being with issues" thing, but i personally don't see it.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 29 mars 2011 - 09:27 .

[Torax]

It's definitely 2 different beings in the same body. Just one is a Spirit who is in denial and trying to hope and believe that the Chantry is right and it's not possible for him to be a demon as well. Which is why Anders is scared as he's losing control.

It's amusing how Wynne asks the Warden about Abominations. Can a person become an Abomination and still retain their humanity? The response is if you still have your humanity then you are not an Abomination. See the difference is Anders actually was losing that Humanity when Justice takes control. Why he's scared as he should be. He basically has a demon in him no matter how much he prays the chantry was telling the truth.

[3zone5]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

So Wynne is the only abomination that isn't bonkers.

If i recall correctly Wynne was living on "borrowed time" since a spirit of compassion possesed her after she died in the circle tower after Uldred went bananas.

Still that doesn't explain why we can't communicate with the spirit the same way like we could talk to Justice in awakening.

[Torax]

3zone5 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

So Wynne is the only abomination that isn't bonkers.

If i recall correctly Wynne was living on "borrowed time" since a spirit of compassion possesed her after she died in the circle tower after Uldred went bananas.

Still that doesn't explain why we can't communicate with the spirit the same way like we could talk to Justice in awakening.

She isn't possessed. She seems a rare case. The spirit protects her from the fade and isn't turly in her body I think. She's never even spoken to the spirit. She believes it was a spirit of faith. Makes sense that it wouldn't speak or even show it's self to anyone. A spirit of faith wouldn't even will anything to being. But what this spirit appeared to do was instead link it's fade self to her link by being a mage.

When Wynne was about to die she felt something envelope her and then she was awake again. She was never out of control of her body. At least as she describes it, there is no entity controling her. Just this spirit of faith shields her from death. It's using it's energy to stop her from joining the fade permanently in death. Using even more of it's life force when she truly needs because in the end, the spirit of faith decided that it would rather die sooner than allow Wynne to not keep on her path of life.

I think it's completely rare and far different. But it could just be because it's a spirit of faith and not a spirit that is more about want and violence?

Modifié par Torax, 29 mars 2011 - 10:03 .

[CLime]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I thought of it more like Justice isn't necessarily the entire driving principle, it's just the one that it identifies most with.

That's how I understood it.  It isn't as if you can come to him and ask whether X is just or not, and get an answer that's is unequivocally true across all time and space.  However spirits become attached to specific abstract concepts, he just chose to/was made to identify with the mortal concept of justice.

Desire demons exploit lust and greed.  Pride demons exploit ambition and hubris.  Justice spirits... exploit indignation and self-righteousness.  I'm with Merrill on this one, demons and spirits alike only really differ in the emotions upon which they feed.

[Torax]

CLime wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I thought of it more like Justice isn't necessarily the entire driving principle, it's just the one that it identifies most with.

That's how I understood it.  It isn't as if you can come to him and ask whether X is just or not, and get an answer that's is unequivocally true across all time and space.  However spirits become attached to specific abstract concepts, he just chose to/was made to identify with the mortal concept of justice.

Desire demons exploit lust and greed.  Pride demons exploit ambition and hubris.  Justice spirits... exploit indignation and self-righteousness.  I'm with Merrill on this one, demons and spirits alike only really differ in the emotions upon which they feed.

What was even more amusing was how both Justice and Valor only seem to understand the term that is Demons but I'm not sure how much entirely they could truly differentiate themselves. Part of me wonders if a mage just once told them about the Chantry's philosophy and so the spirits started to believe it as true. Where the Dalish just treat them as a case by case basis and not some chart that just groups entities like a census.

[sassperella]

Although Anders says a few times he and Justice are now one, I don't think it's that simple. Some of the things he does and says contradicts this. It's more like there's only room in his brain for one entity to live, so some of it has been overwritten by Justice, so they take up the space of one entity, have the brain of one entity, but have two personalities.
He says a few things about Justices feelings - Justice doesn't approve of my obsession with you - if they were one then Anders wouldn't approve either and he clearly does
He switches between "modes" Justice comes out to play in the fade and at various times in the game.

I personally don't think it's as clear cut as they are one and the same being. I do believe though that they are probably inseparable now as by separating them you will end up with two beings who are incomplete.

And if I ever play Awakening again Nate gets instachopped for convincing Justice it was a good idea.

Modifié par sassperella, 29 mars 2011 - 11:24 .

[dahoughtonuk]

I don't entirely blame Justice though I consider him a demon at this point. Anders was before a you have to laugh or cry, so he chose to laugh type of guy. But when Justice offered what Ander's wanted he took it. Trusting his friend,not wasting to admit that his friend was heading down the path of becoming a demon.

[Asdara]

CLime wrote...

That's how I understood it.  It isn't as if you can come to him and ask whether X is just or not, and get an answer that's is unequivocally true across all time and space.  However spirits become attached to specific abstract concepts, he just chose to/was made to identify with the mortal concept of justice.

Desire demons exploit lust and greed.  Pride demons exploit ambition and hubris.  Justice spirits... exploit indignation and self-righteousness.  I'm with Merrill on this one, demons and spirits alike only really differ in the emotions upon which they feed.

This is a very helpful way of looking at the spirit world in terms of what is or is not a demon.  Emotions are what we identify the entities by and the ones we think of as negative - Rage, Desire, Sloth, etc. - are all "demons" because those emotions taken to an extreme are what the entities feed off of and possess humans for.  Justice can, and does, become Vengeance - even Anders agrees with that - and a driving need for Vengeance is something being fed off of by the entity that has possessed him now.