202 réponses à ce sujet

[wintermonk]

I thought Kirkwall felt alive. It had various factions, some legal and some criminal, that were vying for power, and you have a role in the city and a relationship with the various factions that was compelling (relationship with mages, templars, city guard, qunari, criminal groups, former employer (mercs or smugglers) dailish elves, and also with your family and with companions). Somebody mentioned Taris from KOTOR. I though Kirkwall felt much more alive than Taris did!--in Taris you were walking around in identical circles in those towers, and there were few factions that you had any sort of relationship to. Kirkwall had some serious politics going on compared to other games. Despite that, I enjoyed KOTOR because I cooperated with it. I don't expect perfect realism (after all, my fighter was hit with a sword how many times and bled how many bucketfulls of blood, and he still kept on fighting?)

I wouldn't whine about not being able to go into some buidlings. In some video games I thought it silly how you could just barge into people's houses and look around as if this is normal behavior. New York City is a big vibrant city, but that doesn't mean I should be entering people's houses and apartments at random to look at their bookshelves next time I go there on vacation! Maybe a couple more inns would have been nice in Kirkwall, but really, is one inn so much different than the next?

Also, originality can be overrated. It is obvious that this is a medieval European syle city. Hence it looks that way. It could have been made to look like something from a strange planet out of Star Wars, but would that be appropriate? Sorry, but medieval cities probably didn't vary that much from one city to another. Simply coming up with original stuff as an end in itself comes across contrived and forced. I like the familiarity of the city . And it DID have it's own look in subtle ways (as a former slave city).

And on the subject of originality, was DA;O original? Just about half the high-fantasy books out there have a hero of humble origins who makes friends with some people, some less than savory, who become companions and they have to go on long journeys through dangerous environments while fighting hostile creatures so that they may get some holy relic or something to save the world from some big bad dark being. Instead of orcs we have darkspawn. Instead of Sauron we have a demigod. It was NOT original at all, but that was okay. I like the familiarity.

As for characters saying the same thing after ten years, I didnt' really notice it that much, except for vendors perhaps. But people on the street would talk more and make comments about the "hero of Kirkwall" when you'd walk by, greeting you. That didn't happen in Act I. It's a difference. And It is a game, not real life, so you can't expect real-life people. It's a virtual world, and some of you complainers must be willing to use your imaginations a little and fill in the blanks and add a little to the game world. Okay? Do your part. The Holodeck from Star Trek is still a long way off in the future, so I think some realistic expectations are in order.

[Jorrkit]

No, I never played the Baldur's Gate games. Probably should've clarified that in my earlier post. Maybe I should try them out.

[Kimberly Shaw]

It's a virtual world, and some of you complainers must be willing to use your imaginations a little and fill in the blanks and add a little to the game world. Okay? Do your part. The Holodeck from Star Trek is still a long way off in the future, so I think some realistic expectations are in order.

Fair point about our expectations being too high, Bioware usually exceeds expectations and maybe a lot of people hold them to too high a standard.

But, in our defence (we the complainers) this is a game focused on ONE city, not a whole country or continent or world as most RPGs are. And some RPGs in the past have done much more to make a city feel alive and reactive than DA2 does with Kirkwall.

And this city has SEVEN years to evolve in a highly tumultuous time period with Qunari and Mage revolts and Templar opression. But it doesn't. That's just a wasted opportunity and it's a shame.

Have you seen some of the concept art for Kirkwall? I saw one in a post yesterday that was beautiful and made me understand the city so much more than the stylized in game map and the clunky "zones" of Hightown and Lowtown. It was a great concept, just poorly executed (in my opinion).

[Cybermortis]

wintermonk wrote...


Also, originality can be overrated. It is obvious that this is a medieval European syle city. Hence it looks that way. It could have been made to look like something from a strange planet out of Star Wars, but would that be appropriate? Sorry, but medieval cities probably didn't vary that much from one city to another. Simply coming up with original stuff as an end in itself comes across contrived and forced. I like the familiarity of the city . And it DID have it's own look in subtle ways (as a former slave city).

European medieval cities do vary quite considerably, and did throughout history. Although there are stylistic trends for different regions, these trends change over time and only the 'higher-class' structures tend to remain for long periods of time. What you see in all old cities is a mixture of the old and the new - usually mixed together. It can be difficult to tell the old from the new, but the differences are there - it can be in the materials used, the way the bricks are put together or the size and design of the windows.

Cities are not unchanging, sterile enviroments. Indeed cities have always grown in a chaotic way until very recently. Nor do changes only appear over long periods of time. While changes to cities are usually gradual, there are also sudden rapid bursts of change over a very short space of time. For example the skyline of London changed dramatically between 1955-1965 as tower blocks were built. Likewise the Blitiz changed the skyline in the 1940's, and in the 1600's the Great Fire of London resulted in the layout of London being changed significantly in less than a decade.

Now the 'cities' we've seen in games can usually remain the same because we are not 'there' for a long period of time, or in the case of Sci-fi games can be assumed to be pre-planned. Kirkwall however shows no changes at all over the '10' years we are there. My home town's high street changed totally in 10 years, even if most of the same buildings are there the same shops are not. Banks have become bars, bars have become newsagents and estate agents have become boarded up empty buildings.

But in Kirkwall, which has at least one major battle taking place in the streets, nothing changes at all.

[wyvvern]

Weather, and seasons might have been nice. Act one taking place in spring, act 2 in winter, act 3 in summer. Snow on the docks and falling from the sky. Ice on the harbor. Little things like that help make a city feel more alive.

[LocutusX]

Elizire wrote...

I'm surprised to see only one mention of Vizima (The Witcher) in this thread about living cities. I still remember sitting back in awe and amazement when all the town folk went running for shelter whenever it started to rain.You may not have been able to interact with everyone, but there were plenty of people about, constantly in motion. Not a lot of animatronic statues that didn't move from a spot over the course of many years.

Yes, Vizima was great.

Another great one was Khorinis from Gothic 2. The NPC schedules in that game was fascinating. After blokes were done their drinking for the night, they would find the nearest bush and ****** INTO IT! How cool is that? And if you continued to follow them, they would go back to their houses, sleep -- and then wake up the next morning to go to work... all that from a year 2003 game.

[Reule]

Kirkwall hardly changed at all through out the years. I hate to say it but I was expecting more since the entire story takes place in one city. Just seems like lost potential when you narrow your focus on setting but want to enrich it.

I know it's not the same type of game or even technology but to give another example, Mafia II. The entire game takes place in Empire Bay between the 1940s and the 50s. The transition wasn't subtle but it worked. I did feel a sense of growth still in Dragon Age within the narrative and the characters but just felt that didn't reflect well with Kirkwall itself.

[Korusus]

Jorrkit wrote...

Bioware just seems to miss the boat pretty consistently when it comes to designing memorable environments. That's something I've been dissatisfied with in just about all the Bioware games I've played (perhaps with the exception of Jade Empire). Think about it: doesn't Kirkwall remind you quite a bit of Taris from KOTOR? Or the Citadel from Mass Effect? They just feel like ant farms without the ants.

Actually you're not too far off.  BioWare's games have had the same basic area design since their first foray into 3D with Neverwinter Nights.

If anyone doesn't believe that comment...load up vanilla NWN and play through the prologue chapter and then compare the academy to any mansion in Dragon Age 2.  KotOR had it.  ME1 had it.  ME2 had it.  DA:O had it.  JE had it.

That said, Kirkwall is severely lacking in window dressing compared to pretty much all those above games.  Compare just the citadel in ME1 to Kirkwall.  Not only is there almost no ambient activity on the part of the NPCs (which is a seperate issue from not being able to interact with them), but if you take the time to zoom in close to them....you see BioWare didn't even bother given them high res textures. 

Check it out.  Every non-quest/nonmerchant NPC in Kirkwall has a hood/helmet on.  Almost every single one of them.

It's crazy.  You can predict which NPCs will talk to your group as your passing by based on their textures alone.

Modifié par Korusus, 29 mars 2011 - 04:08 .

[addu2urmanapool]

I meant the Imperial City in Jade Empire.

[DungeonLord]

Engine limitations is a load of crap. If the engine isn't up to it, GET A PROPER ENGINE. Seriously, just poor design.

[Stinkface27]

Yeah, I do think Kirkwall kind of missed the mark. The different areas felt very disconnected, nothing really seemed to change over 10 years. Commoners didn't respond to anything, plus as far as I can tell only 20 people live in this massive city. It's a little immersion breaking when everybody is bellyaching about the Alienage being so crowded when you only ever see 3 elves. Also I thought some of the NPCs were silly. (Spoilers!) If Bethany was an exemplary mage and you never got to see her while she was in the Circle, why the heck was Grace free to wander around the Gallows Courtyard?

[Pyrate_d]

 I don't expect a massive thriving city in a game like this, which is why you shouldn't set the entire game in a single city. 

It's pretty much the same quality as Denerim in DAO, although honestly the alienage in Denerim was far better done than any area in Kirkwall. The difference is that Denerim is a very small part of the game.

[neppakyo]

Go and look what an upstart developer did with The Witcher. Now go look at the Witcher 2 vids. Holy crap, why couldnt they make DA2 look as good. its like comparing a 1980's 15" color TV to a modern 60" HDTV. The cities look awesome in TW2..

Perhaps Cd project red is the place to go for dynamic non-linear rpgs?

[addu2urmanapool]

Has anyone here played Red Dead Redemption and seen how alive the cities in there feel?

[Draconis6666]

Dark83 wrote...

Oblivion's Imperial City was bull****. Hell, Oblivion was a step backwards from Morrowind in terms of map layout. Freaking loading zones. Guddam consoles carving up our glorious one-map into crappy bite-sized zones. Imperial City could have been beautiful. We could have flown up and gazed upon the entire city from the tower. But noooooo, crappy hardware clipped our wings.

Morrowind had loading zones too, just less of them, Vivec was a bunch of loading zones disguised as different buildings and Mournhold was almost identical to the Imperial City in the way it was divided into areas surrounding the central palace.

[e1team]

OMG! Not another whiner thread...

[Deylar]

Funny how, Witcher 2's game trailer says "No linear storytelling..." lol.

Now unto the topic.

Kirkwall is dead. And I'm going to use two games to show you how cities work. And you can groan and gripe all you like about my two choices. However, I find these are the best games to share two little things that make a world alive.

First game I choose I choose for the actual development and looks of it. The Fable series, has always always been the best choice and best game to look at cities. Every little building is the same in architect, however, there have always been little details that make each and every little house different.
The people walk around, talk with each other, interact with the hero, drink, dance, children play games in the street. These are the best examples of a city if I ever saw one. Your choices form what these people are going to say to you, do they fear you because you're evil or do they praise you because of your good nature.
They fall in love with you. They are married to one another. They sleep. Shoot sometimes you might forget you're in a game because of the Fable series, especially Fable 2 and Fable 3.

Next I choose TES [The Elder Scrolls] series for its technical uses of the elements. It rains, it snows, and it goes night and day. Water moves, and things live in the water. All though TES isn't always pretty. They show the most beautiful techniques, notice how I say techniques and am NOT talking game design. Techniques, in how to make a world move. In how to make a world feel real. As it snows and rains. As the water moves. How each thing in the world feels organic.

Since these are the games, especially Fable 3, I have been playing a tie over before DA2 and Skyrim. Its really hard to like Kirkwall, when I have seen so many other games bring me a living world of people.

Kirkwall brings me a living world of mannequin dolls standing around.

[Stinkface27]

e1team wrote...

OMG! Not another whiner thread...

What a useful comment.

If you can't abide by critique or constructive criticism, this probably isn't the best thread for you to poke your nose in.

Modifié par Stinkface27, 29 mars 2011 - 04:50 .

[Sidney]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

But, in our defence (we the complainers) this is a game focused on ONE city, not a whole country or continent or world as most RPGs are. And some RPGs in the past have done much more to make a city feel alive and reactive than DA2 does with Kirkwall.

.

The best city I've seen isn't in any RPG - AC does urban spaces better than anyone. They use the odd approach of starting with the map of city and, you know, using it. Bioware could have made Kirkwall feel better if they just gotten a map of medevial port like Lubeck/Lisbon/Cadiz or something and carved the chunks of the city out of real spaces so things felt like streets and alleys and not "areas". Reminds me a bit of Rapture wihc was a cool idea but never felt like anyone could have ever lived in it.

I struggle to think of a really good RPG city - is Baldur's Gate the best? New Reno from FO2? None of them have ever felt all that alive or real.

[Harmless Crunch]

I know KIrkwall could have been on the level of quality of this


Or this


Hell even this

[Sidney]

Reule wrote...

Kirkwall hardly changed at all through out the years. I hate to say it but I was expecting more since the entire story takes place in one city. Just seems like lost potential when you narrow your focus on setting but want to enrich it.
 

You can't compare 10 years of middle ages level tech and change vs modern era - I saw someone reference London in the latter half of the 20thc. Yeah it can change but cranes, steel and bombs can do a lot of urban renewal.

That wasn't the case when basically cities might grow organically but they would re-use old construction for quite some time. I mean there's a reason there are still medevial sections of cities like Toledo, Prague and their ilk. A city like Rome was 35,000 people in 1000 and was 33,000 in 1400 and 38,000 in 1500 so even in terms of expansions you wouldn't have seen much for 500 years, let alone a decade.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

addu2urmanapool wrote...

Has anyone here played Red Dead Redemption and seen how alive the cities in there feel?

Which makes DA2 more depressing when you realize more people live in the desert threatend by a wild puma population.

[Deylar]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Which makes DA2 more depressing when you realize more people live in the desert threatend by a wild puma population.

In the desert puma eats you.

[PSUHammer]

Reading this thread rings true to me. Im on my second playthrough as a mage. I was thinking tonight "why are the Templars and guards just standing there calmly as I hurl fireballs and lightning around??". Also, where are the people??! It feels like a single run in with a gang would deplete the entire population of Hightown.

Bioware needs to rip off the Assassin's Creed city design and make it like THAT! Those cities felt alive!

[PSUHammer]

And, on that note, why do the guards just stand there when a gang of ninjas start dropping from the roof tops??