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[Coldest]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Wow. People are defending Kirkwall and saying it's more alive than other cities in Baldur's Gate2? Honestly?

Look, you can defend the plot and game play and bugs and everything, but please don't spout nonsense about Kirkwall being alive and encompassing.

For a game set in one city, they should have made the city itself Sand-box style with points to fast travel in it if desired. This would have given cohesion to the city instead it just feels like a few small zones that are not at all connected.

They should have made more than a few grand views in the city, instead everything is mile high walls so you feel like you're in a hedge maze with brown/grey bushes that stretch 50 feet high. Nevermind that every single house has the same EXACT layout in hightown.

Remember in Baldur's Gate 2, how if you travelled at night a vampire would come and kill townspeople and guards would try to help you kill them and if you cast spells in front of people the cowled wizards would try to arrest you? That game was 11 years ago. Why has gaming regressed so much since then in terms of cities reacting to the Player Character? Isn't magic use illegal in Kirkwall outside of the Circle? Does anyone notice/care if I cast spells in broad daylight? Nope. Do NPCs die or scatter if I throw a fireball in their midst? Only if they are enemies, the townspeople just keep yawning.

And the game is set over 7 years (don't give me 10 years bull@hit, that's including the 3 years after Varric left Hawke which is not playable), and the town changes imperceptibly in that time. What a frigging waste of a chance to do something DIFFERENT with a single city setting because you've got this great device of time to use. And wasted. Completely. How ANYONE defends the lack of change in the city over 7 years of massive change is beyond me.

The Bioware fanboys are some real peculiar people. And in posting this, please believe that I did not hate the game, I've played through twice and find lots I like about it. But the static city is not one of them.

This.

[gotthammer]

I liked Kirkwall's design, a bit: it was tall, and reminded me a bit of some structures (or the feel of structures) from Warhammer 40,000 art (flying buttresses courtesy of a more gothic look would've been nicer than Kirkwall's rather bare sides, but...  ).
The colours were a bit 'dry', though (mostly the yellowish dust colour and the banners).

Was the city 'dead'? Well, it did feel that way to some extent. Sure it had people, but it didn't feel 'bustling' or 'alive'.
More people and things to do with them (maybe a better way of presenting those FedEx quests: people approaching your Hawke, who is, after his 1st year in Kirkwall, someone who has gained some renown as a smuggler or mercenary, and more so later when he becomes champion), perhaps, would lend to a more 'lively' city.

I also think the lack of transition scenes and establishing shots 'hurt' how many see the city:
re: establishing shot
Compare the intro to Oblivion and Hawke's first entry into Kirkwall. We pass through cliffs w/ the statues w/ chains...BUT we barely see Kirkwall. In Oblivion we at least see all of the Imperial City (w/ great music playing to enhance the mood). If memory serves, I don't get to see more of the city until much later into the game (when the Anders pressed the button...and something awesome happened  ).
A fly by/over of the city during Hawke's entry could've helped establish the place some more.
Example: from the shot of Hawke and company in the hold of the ship bringing them to Kirkwall, pan upwards, looking at the cliffs the ship is passing under, then move camera up, as if flying upwards through the cliffs, the look/pan toward city and environments, then fly over the city, maybe focus on the Chantry, then fly through Hightown, Lowtown, the Docks, and then over the water toward the Gallows and end there.
Something like that. 

re: transition shots/scenes
I liked these in Mass Effect 1 & 2. You know, the short cutscenes when you're landing/leaving a planet? IMHO, these could've helped give the city more 'life', 'depth'.
I mean, we're supposed to be in the city for, what, 7 years or more? How much of it do we see?
Something like: if Hawke were traveling from Hightown to Lowtown, we'd get a shot of Hawke and co. walking down the stairs, maybe have it zoom out into a pre-rendered video (far enough that it doesn't show who Hawke is with anymore, which means one cinematic fits all Hawkes), showing Hightown, then panning and zooming/moving toward Lowtown and then blurring/fading to black, then loading screen (or if the vid covers the loading time, straight back into control of your party).
Something like that. 

IMHO, the lack of establishing shots and transition scenes are a wasted opportunity to draw a player more into one of the game's important characters: the city of Kirkwall.
It doesn't help when the 'internals' of the city (and its surroundings), with few exceptions, are mostly recycled maps.

Methinks, with time and effort, they can 'fix' these shortcomings.

As for a comment earlier in the thread regarding using 'our imaginations':
Isn't the point of a visual medium, such as a videogame, to remove the visual aspect from our imaginations?
If I wanted to 'imagine' visuals, I'd go read a book (and I have a fair backlog, too...damn you Honor Harrington!  )

Again, I enjoyed the game, but I am disappointed (whereas I practically had little/superficial elements as far as complaints go for DA:O). 

Edited for more details AND smilies! 

Modifié par gotthammer, 29 mars 2011 - 09:49 .

[L33TDAWG]

The Imperial City in Jade Empire was a lot better because of how busy it was, and there was a lot more color to keep a good theme of royalty. DA2 tried in all areas, but really failed by trying to spread out too much.

[KLUME777]

gingerbill wrote...

i think alot of people missed alot of subtle changes , they were too busy looking for things to moan about .NPC's say diffrent things as time goes on .

i dont think any game makes a city seem alive , GTA4 thats not even an RPg is the best city in a game for me . I dont think any RPG has done a better job of a city than kirkwall , certainly not BG series or oblivion .

Are you kidding me?

Off the top of my head:
New Reno - Fallout 2 (OMG New Reno was simply amazing!!)
Taris - Kotor 1
Nar Shadda - Kotor 2
Megaton - Fallout 3
New Vegas and Freeside - Fallout: New Vegas
Skingrad - Oblivion (imo best city in Oblivion)
The Citadel - Mass Effect 1
Omega - Mass Effect 2

Not to mention non-RPG's in games like:
Every city in GTA series (Seriosly)
Blackwater - Red Dead Redemption
Every city in Assasins Creed series
Too many in all the other sanbox, free roam games

All of these are better than Kirkwall.

EDIT: Ive never played BG series though, and some of the older RPG's. But i will, some day.

Modifié par KLUME777, 29 mars 2011 - 12:13 .

[DungeonLord]

Time restrictions, engine limitations. Pathetic excuses.
Devote more time. Get a better engine. EA is huge enough that it could easily get a proper product out. Too bad greed ruled the release of this game, and probably all future games as well. Instead of releasing truly epic games, they'll release just enough to scrape by and fool the fanboys.

[v_ware]

KLUME777 wrote...

gingerbill wrote...

i think alot of people missed alot of subtle changes , they were too busy looking for things to moan about .NPC's say diffrent things as time goes on .

i dont think any game makes a city seem alive , GTA4 thats not even an RPg is the best city in a game for me . I dont think any RPG has done a better job of a city than kirkwall , certainly not BG series or oblivion .

Are you kidding me?

Off the top of my head:

Taris - Kotor 1
The Citadel - Mass Effect 1
Omega - Mass Effect 2

All of these are better than Kirkwall.

This. Bioware has done so much better in the past. Taris was probably just as big as Kirkwall. And it was more diverse and fascinating.

[The_11thDoctor]

For DA it was a step up. For any RPG its pretty abysmal. It doesnt even match up to ME2 and ME2 was smaller that ME1. Think the Citadel....Yep. There was my sadness too. But yeah, such a small game with little content in the city.

[gotthammer]

A really sad thought that came up: I think Darklands' cities felt more alive than Kirkwall. 
(I mean, each street had something going for it)

edit: and agreed w/ most of Klume's examples.

Yeah. Fallout 2's 'New Reno' was great. (too bad for them, tho': I didn't like any of the gangs...and I had lots of time and ammo  )

I'd also add the cities for Arcanum and The Witcher's Vizima as examples for 'cities more alive than Kirkwall'.

another edit:
Still, as with my earlier post, I'm of the mind that they can still remedy/fix Kirkwall's shortcomings. Come on Bioware, give us an 'Enhanced Edition'. 
We'll love ya for it (hopefully). 

Modifié par gotthammer, 29 mars 2011 - 12:32 .

[Sefearion]

The mansion where Fenris is staying. Everytime I waltz in there I still see the same impaled corpses lying around despite several years having passed One of many examples

[Taleq]

Sefearion wrote...

The mansion where Fenris is staying. Everytime I waltz in there I still see the same impaled corpses lying around despite several years having passed One of many examples

Yeah I almost never visit Fenris, his room...smels.

[Dubya75]

Let's face it: Dragon Age II is not in the same class as games like Red Dead Redemption or Assassin's Creed, and never will be.
Comparing Kirkwall to even the smallest locations on either of these games' maps is just unfair.
I've accepted that the Dragon Age franchise is never going to be as big as Origins suggested it may become.
In part, this is perhaps - as it has been mentioned - due game engine limitations, which kind of confirms my suspicion unless they switch to a different engine. But we know that aint gonna happen now don't we!

[LightningSamus]

There's a place called Kirkwall, it's a nice free place and... dull dull dull.

[Zmajc]

Another city that felt much much more alive than Kirkwall was Curst in Planescape: Torment.

It's just amazing how they could make such an empty shell of a city in DA2 and give it absolutely no feeling of being alive.

Especially since whole game takes place only there.

Modifié par Zmajc, 29 mars 2011 - 12:57 .

[Black--Hand]

Anyone played Ultima VII? That game had extremely lifelike cities and NPCs. They would go to bed, get up in the morning and go to their jobs. They would work the land, milk cows, bake bread, run their shops. This from a game in 1992. Edit: I see there are some "Let's Play" videos floating around for Ultima VII.  Check it out, game was WAY ahead of its time.

I obviously don't expect that, I haven't seen a game since then that took it quite to that level. As one of the above posters said, it does make you think about how many of the things we used to take for granted have regressed.

Modifié par Black--Hand, 29 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[CaolIla]

I remember making fun of a de league map for CS:S, I can't recall it's name, but I bet Bioware took that map as a starting point for Kirkwall, just different shades of grey for walls and sand on the floor.
I was always talking about the clever combination of grey and grey, not to mention how the grey gives a contrast to the grey and makes it pop out Oo.
My teammates hated me, but that was the only way to have fun with the map. Same goes for Kirkwall.
I don't want to know how bad it looks like on console or without high res pack and very high details...
BG and BG2 cities can kick kirkwalls a** any time , hell the main city of BG2 had like 7 districts all looking different (think about that for a change...), having life in them and then there was a whole world around it with maps that didn't look like the other.
If it's an engine limitation then get another engine... if I can't get my beer open with a toothpick I don't try it for the rest of my life but get the right tool to do what I need to.
If it was a time limitation then take the time you need.
For instance: Unknown Worlds is the developer of Natural Selection 2. But there is more, they are also the publisher and the ones who get the money for the game. I think their first release date was 2009 or 2008 and it's still not out. But people bought it although they knew it wouldn't surface in the next few years. Now it's in beta phase and coming along, I can see a release this year, but I don't know if it'll be late or just 2 or 3 months from now.
What am I trying to say? If you want to do something, do it right and take the time you need. They had offers from big publishers to **** themselves out and they didn't do it, because they knew what would happen. If you rush through game development just so some stock holders get a higher share this year instead of a increasing share over the next few years because of a growing fanbase due to high quality products, than you should just stop developing games. It's so sad to see these companies just focused on what they can get NOW instead of seeing the whole picture and what can be in 2 or 3 years if they just do it right for once.

And just to respond to some of the posts here: yes, even the dragon age cities felt much more alive and had their own character, not like this soulless pile of grey stone.

[LocutusX]

Sefearion wrote...

The mansion where Fenris is staying. Everytime I waltz in there I still see the same impaled corpses lying around despite several years having passed One of many examples

Oh gosh, that mansion was absolutely horrible.

I would LOVE to see a member of the DA2 "Fanboy Until Death" club defend the implementation of his mansion. After all, they say they are the majority, so it shouldn't be a problem for one of them to post something in this thread about why Fenris' mansion makes perfect sense the way it looks...

[JohnstonMR]

Ravenfeeder wrote...

Arhengard wrote...

What really kills it for me is the city doesn't really change over the supposed ten year period.

Did you miss the new statue by the Docks in Act III? (I know it's not much but I liked it. I admire it a lot, excellent subject).

Thing is, it doesn't look as if cities changed much in Earth eras similar to the tech level shown in the game.  Buildings took generations to build. 

SOME change would have been nice, though.

[InvaderErl]

L33TDAWG wrote...

The Imperial City in Jade Empire was a lot better because of how busy it was, and there was a lot more color to keep a good theme of royalty. DA2 tried in all areas, but really failed by trying to spread out too much.

I agree I think the Imperial City is the best in game town they've done since BG2, it was nice and big and felt populated.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2011 - 03:25 .

[JohnstonMR]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

gingerbill wrote...

i think alot of people missed alot of subtle changes , they were too busy looking for things to moan about .NPC's say diffrent things as time goes on .

i dont think any game makes a city seem alive , GTA4 thats not even an RPg is the best city in a game for me . I dont think any RPG has done a better job of a city than kirkwall , certainly not BG series or oblivion .

 Oblivion's cities were much more 'alive'. One, buildings were, buildings with interiors , and secondly the AI certainly helped, by being both interactable and moving, as people do  sometimes.

At least it would have been nice to have NPCs react to things, like in Assassin's Creed, where practically anything out of the ordinary you do makes NPCs comment, and getting into a fight sends NPCs scurrying away in fear. 

[Wintermist]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Wow. People are defending Kirkwall and saying it's more alive than other cities in Baldur's Gate2? Honestly?

Look, you can defend the plot and game play and bugs and everything, but please don't spout nonsense about Kirkwall being alive and encompassing.

For a game set in one city, they should have made the city itself Sand-box style with points to fast travel in it if desired. This would have given cohesion to the city instead it just feels like a few small zones that are not at all connected.

They should have made more than a few grand views in the city, instead everything is mile high walls so you feel like you're in a hedge maze with brown/grey bushes that stretch 50 feet high. Nevermind that every single house has the same EXACT layout in hightown.

Remember in Baldur's Gate 2, how if you travelled at night a vampire would come and kill townspeople and guards would try to help you kill them and if you cast spells in front of people the cowled wizards would try to arrest you? That game was 11 years ago. Why has gaming regressed so much since then in terms of cities reacting to the Player Character? Isn't magic use illegal in Kirkwall outside of the Circle? Does anyone notice/care if I cast spells in broad daylight? Nope. Do NPCs die or scatter if I throw a fireball in their midst? Only if they are enemies, the townspeople just keep yawning.

And the game is set over 7 years (don't give me 10 years bull@hit, that's including the 3 years after Varric left Hawke which is not playable), and the town changes imperceptibly in that time. What a frigging waste of a chance to do something DIFFERENT with a single city setting because you've got this great device of time to use. And wasted. Completely. How ANYONE defends the lack of change in the city over 7 years of massive change is beyond me.

The Bioware fanboys are some real peculiar people. And in posting this, please believe that I did not hate the game, I've played through twice and find lots I like about it. But the static city is not one of them.

Well said, mate. Well said.

[Hawke123]

Right now I'm playing Two Worlds II, an apparently inferior game to DA2. Yet this game has busy towns where people wander around, chat, go to the market and walk home. DA2, you go to Lowtown at night to find the same person in the same location bending down staring at nothing.

[Bfler]

Hawke123 wrote...

Right now I'm playing Two Worlds II, an apparently inferior game to DA2. Yet this game has busy towns where people wander around, chat, go to the market and walk home. DA2, you go to Lowtown at night to find the same person in the same location bending down staring at nothing.

Maybe the towns in TW2 are busy but many parts from the rest of the world are empty landscapes.

[Deylar]

Hawke123 wrote...

Right now I'm playing Two Worlds II, an apparently inferior game to DA2. Yet this game has busy towns where people wander around, chat, go to the market and walk home. DA2, you go to Lowtown at night to find the same person in the same location bending down staring at nothing.

Hey not cool.

TW2 is a great example of a game that did everything right with its sequel. The first game, wretched, horrible. Absolutely. That game actually was so buggy it was unplayable.

The people who made TW1, fixed most of the issues in TW2. They fixed everything wrong with the first game and tried to do right.

[Cybermortis]

JohnstonMR wrote...

Ravenfeeder wrote...

Arhengard wrote...

What really kills it for me is the city doesn't really change over the supposed ten year period.

Did you miss the new statue by the Docks in Act III? (I know it's not much but I liked it. I admire it a lot, excellent subject).

Thing is, it doesn't look as if cities changed much in Earth eras similar to the tech level shown in the game.  Buildings took generations to build. 

SOME change would have been nice, though.

No they didn't - and certainly not in the poorer areas of cities.

Even the largest buildings rarely look more than a decade to build - although alterations to them could take far longer.

Even Rome changed significantly in a matter of a few years after major fires. One of the changes were laws passed to limit the height of the lower class buildings, and it was usual for roads to be re-worked after fires to some extent.

Not that Kirkwall HAS any roads...

As a city Kirkwall just doesn't feel real, which considering you spend almost the entire game there doesn't exactly help immersion. One of the first things we are told is that the city is full up, no more room for refugees. Yet the Gallows we walk into after being told this has a HUGE open area with no one there.

At night this 'vibrant' city is empty, apart from one or two guards who are clearly asleep and hundreds of absailing Ninja's. It seems that this 'full' city isn't so full that people are living on the streets. I can only assume that the absailing Ninjas killed them all while waiting for a heavilly armed party to walk by. That or by wiping out what appears to be 2/3rds of the city every time I walk home at night helped the housing crisis.

The markets comprise three or four stores and no customers...or anyone but the odd static guard. Even the city in Awakening had the odd NPC looking at the market stalls - and that felt less like a city and more like a fortified inn.

Compare to the Citidel in ME, which felt far more alive not least because while you could fast travel from one location to the next. You could also walk from one area to the other with ease. Even the Embasy in ME2 gave the impression of existing somewhere more lively that Kirkwall - just look over the railing and you can see NPC's walking around and talking in the areas you could walk around in ME. There is movement there, and the impression of life everywhere you look.

Kirkwall? You feel that you've walked into a graveyard - which given the number of people I'd been attacked by and killed by the end of act one might be not far off the mark. All the other cities I've seen, even in older games, give the impression that no matter what I do the city will continue to exist and 'live'. Kirkwall gives the impression of a city that is dead from the start.

[Matroska]

I agree with a lot of the criticisms but, as always, these are problems inherent in all Bioware games. Their insistence on using lots of little zones that don't seem connected has always bothered me in their post-NWN games. It really bugged me in KotOR but most people seem perfectly happy that each planet is one small town area (with all doors but one or two being "fake") and then two or three pretty lazy and featureless wilderness areas. It was horrible and it really killed any sense of immersion I'd have otherwise had in that game. Origins did it too. Denerim was just one marketplace. There's about 18 doors around the place but only about four are actual doors - not even the chantry's doors allow you entry so it's not just like it's random little hovels that are shut off. Then you have 4 identical back alleys in which none of the doors are real. So much for this thriving capital city. Kirkwall is actually better than that but it still seems pathetic compared to cities in other similar games.

Things like most NPCs not saying anything - and when they do say something, it's from a limited pool of generic sentences - is just a problem in every WRPG I've played. JRPGs do this a lot better, with every single NPC having unique dialogue that updates after every plot event. I haven't played a single WRPG where that is the case. From Torment to Fallout to Dragon Age, they are either silent NPCs or, at best, NPCs that say one of about 3 generic lines per area that never update due to plot events.