202 réponses à ce sujet

[izryell1]

i know I'm chiming in late. Now that Dragon Age is big time, they really sould have made Kirkwall bustling like Ubisoft did Assassin's Creed. Not saying we need to jump off of buildings or anything, same game play but with large quantities of people in areas like the Markets or Neighborhoods.

Sorry if this has already been said.

Still love the game, except for the uncostomizable companion armor.

[LocutusX]

oops, thread-posting fart.

Edit: just to make this post useful, I will point out to the previous poster that jumping off buildings would actually be grand. Even better, being able to throw people off buildings! Including your party members! I'd pay $60 for a DLC which allows me to throw Aveline off the nearest building the next time she makes a snarky "lawful good" comment to one of my more-interesting party members.

Modifié par LocutusX, 29 mars 2011 - 05:40 .

[Invalidcode]

DA2, the game as a whole is ok.

Kirkwall and it's design, environment etc? Lifeless, boring...
Doesn't matter how big it is, day & night etc, it is just bad.
Since many poster already point out other 'cities' in other games, let me throw my 2 cents out
The Witcher: That game got something like lowtown, hightown and a big, village, & another small village. Tech-wise it is pretty outdated but the places feel alive, you as the player felt like you were actually in a town with other people live in it.

Kirkwall, I guess they name it right, 'The city of chains'

[Kimberly Shaw]

One point I wanted to touch on is the Alienage. In Kirkwall, the Alienage is a single square with a tree in the middle.

Would it REALLY have taken such a large amount of resources to, you know, make it it's own neighbourhood instead of about 1/2 the size of Gamlen's shack interior? Maybe...gasp...2 squares instead of one square? Throw in a merchant and maybe another building to go in? Put some dirt and filth and wounded poor people laying around?

Merril kept complaining about how untidy her place was, but um...it was spotless. So was the Alienage. For such a dirty filthy crawling area, it was immaculate. Immersion failure there. Was her place small? It seemed like a fairly big one bedroom apartment by my standards living in Toronto.

The Alienage in Denerim by contrast felt dirty, sick and crowded. Creepy. It had merchants and sick people coughing (plot related I know ) and buildings to go into and quests in it that were superb (The orphange)...and this was just one little area of ONE of the cities in Origins, yet it was 10000 times superior to the ONLY city in Dragon Age 2. And anyone wonders why people feel the game is rushed and corner cutting?

Maker's breath!

[MonkeyLungs]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Wow. People are defending Kirkwall and saying it's more alive than other cities in Baldur's Gate2? Honestly?

Look, you can defend the plot and game play and bugs and everything, but please don't spout nonsense about Kirkwall being alive and encompassing.

For a game set in one city, they should have made the city itself Sand-box style with points to fast travel in it if desired. This would have given cohesion to the city instead it just feels like a few small zones that are not at all connected.

They should have made more than a few grand views in the city, instead everything is mile high walls so you feel like you're in a hedge maze with brown/grey bushes that stretch 50 feet high. Nevermind that every single house has the same EXACT layout in hightown.

Remember in Baldur's Gate 2, how if you travelled at night a vampire would come and kill townspeople and guards would try to help you kill them and if you cast spells in front of people the cowled wizards would try to arrest you? That game was 11 years ago. Why has gaming regressed so much since then in terms of cities reacting to the Player Character? Isn't magic use illegal in Kirkwall outside of the Circle? Does anyone notice/care if I cast spells in broad daylight? Nope. Do NPCs die or scatter if I throw a fireball in their midst? Only if they are enemies, the townspeople just keep yawning.

And the game is set over 7 years (don't give me 10 years bull@hit, that's including the 3 years after Varric left Hawke which is not playable), and the town changes imperceptibly in that time. What a frigging waste of a chance to do something DIFFERENT with a single city setting because you've got this great device of time to use. And wasted. Completely. How ANYONE defends the lack of change in the city over 7 years of massive change is beyond me.

The Bioware fanboys are some real peculiar people. And in posting this, please believe that I did not hate the game, I've played through twice and find lots I like about it. But the static city is not one of them.

Bravo.

Bioware really missed an opportunity to develop a great city location. Of all the Bio games since their move to 3D, DA2 is the one best suited to a sandbox style, open explorable city. They missed a golden opportunity here.

Oh yeah and I'm really looking forward to watching people try and argue with Kimberly's post ... go on please argue with that post because I could use some entertainment.

[Dark83]

Finally reaching the main city(?) in Arcanum was amazing. The streets and people and buildings and parks and OMGWTFBBQ

[addu2urmanapool]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

One point I wanted to touch on is the Alienage. In Kirkwall, the Alienage is a single square with a tree in the middle.

Would it REALLY have taken such a large amount of resources to, you know, make it it's own neighbourhood instead of about 1/2 the size of Gamlen's shack interior? Maybe...gasp...2 squares instead of one square? Throw in a merchant and maybe another building to go in? Put some dirt and filth and wounded poor people laying around?

Merril kept complaining about how untidy her place was, but um...it was spotless. So was the Alienage. For such a dirty filthy crawling area, it was immaculate. Immersion failure there. Was her place small? It seemed like a fairly big one bedroom apartment by my standards living in Toronto.

The Alienage in Denerim by contrast felt dirty, sick and crowded. Creepy. It had merchants and sick people coughing (plot related I know ) and buildings to go into and quests in it that were superb (The orphange)...and this was just one little area of ONE of the cities in Origins, yet it was 10000 times superior to the ONLY city in Dragon Age 2. And anyone wonders why people feel the game is rushed and corner cutting?

Maker's breath!

Great post. Like MonkeyLungs, I wonder what Bioware Trolls could possibly say to rebut these points.

[neppakyo]

The Bioroids will probably spout about its not about the city, its about the story! Heeerrrp deerrrrp.

[Volourn]

Kirkwall > Denerim

As for the Alienage stuff, it should be pointed out that the Kirkwall elves don't seem to be treated as poorly as the Denerim ones.

NEWSFLASH: Not all cities in Thedas treat elves exactly the same.

[PSUHammer]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

One point I wanted to touch on is the Alienage. In Kirkwall, the Alienage is a single square with a tree in the middle.

Would it REALLY have taken such a large amount of resources to, you know, make it it's own neighbourhood instead of about 1/2 the size of Gamlen's shack interior? Maybe...gasp...2 squares instead of one square? Throw in a merchant and maybe another building to go in? Put some dirt and filth and wounded poor people laying around?

Merril kept complaining about how untidy her place was, but um...it was spotless. So was the Alienage. For such a dirty filthy crawling area, it was immaculate. Immersion failure there. Was her place small? It seemed like a fairly big one bedroom apartment by my standards living in Toronto.

The Alienage in Denerim by contrast felt dirty, sick and crowded. Creepy. It had merchants and sick people coughing (plot related I know ) and buildings to go into and quests in it that were superb (The orphange)...and this was just one little area of ONE of the cities in Origins, yet it was 10000 times superior to the ONLY city in Dragon Age 2. And anyone wonders why people feel the game is rushed and corner cutting?

Maker's breath!

All excellent points.  There are just too many head scratching moments in DA2...like someone said before about Fenris's house still having the corpses laying around, 7 years later.  The guards that just wander and don't seem to notice fireballs or ninjas running around.  By the way...you would think some guards on the roofs would quell the little dive bomb parties that gangs like to pull on you, from above??

Anyway, I liked the game, enough to warrant a second playthrough once they patch it.  But, I have to agree that the city is small and lifeless...and some of the things that DON'T change over time, kind of break the atmosphere and add to the boredom.  I mean, by Act 3, you are tired of running around to the same spawn points, covering the same ground, searching the same crates for the same junk.

Modifié par Hammer6767, 29 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[izryell1]

I have to say that there are missteps mentioned here that I didn't even consider. I hope Bioware reads this stuff. Dragon Age 2 made enough money for a DA3, I just hope they take their time and make it awsome.

And seriously... look at Ubisoft's Italy, its beautiful and DA3's Orlais should look at least that good!

[Wintermist]

BioWare used to be better att Immersion, but somehow they didn't perform as well in Dragon Age 2. I enjoyed it like I would enjoy a Golden Axe game, but I didn't think it was worthy of a Dragon Age title exactly.

[Dark83]

simfamSP wrote...

LocutusX wrote...

Drakensang is linear?

Yes, still loved it though.

Agreed.
Drakensang 2's a bit more flexible on what you do, if you just ignore everything and focus on the main quest you'd be done in a snap.

...assuming you survive.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

With all the enviroment reuses you'd think it would ahve been easy to make Kirkwall bigger. Hell the alienage is one courtyard? How is it even physically possible to fit all the elves in there? Lazy is what it is.

[Scnew]

What I wouldn't give to have a game city feel like Baldur's Gate or Ultima 7's Britain again.

[Dagiz]

Here's my take for what it's worth.  I didn't think it was that dead...maybe at night, but I expect to be.  Just stand in Hightown by the vendors.

The City – Kirkwall is said to be dead by some accounts. That Athkatla was more alive. Well, if you mean people walking around I'd call it even. What I did notice though was the ambient sounds. THAT is the difference. Not the NPC's or the lack of them or the amount of them, but the ambient sounds of an actual city. Could there have been more in DAII? Yeah I think so. Would have made it seem more alive. So in that respect yeah Kirkwall was dead, but I don't think it was for lack of NPC's. To me it was more of a lack of ambient city sounds.  Stand in one place in both games and listen to the ambient sounds and really pan around and see everyone. 

Another huge difference is also that we don't have that top down view.  You look in a certain direction and that limits what you see.   But if you go into areas where you expect people hanging out, like a market, its got some life to it.  If you are going around to where the estates are...well I don't expect people to be hanging out on their stoops...this is the high class area of town.  The other areas...you actually see some of that.  Not a lot, or may be as much as you want, but it's there. 

Modifié par Dagiz, 30 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[Ken555]

Fruit of the Doom wrote...

Not to mention how small the city is, in addition to how empty it is.

The game in general feels... lifeless. If only because you can't even simply talk to your team mates except during a few specific conversations per act.

The "diverse" environments don't help.

As in seen one cave seen em all?

[Ken555]

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

With all the enviroment reuses you'd think it would ahve been easy to make Kirkwall bigger. Hell the alienage is one courtyard? How is it even physically possible to fit all the elves in there? Lazy is what it is.

Agreed, they got it better in Origins.

[Ken555]

Volourn wrote...

Kirkwall > Denerim

As for the Alienage stuff, it should be pointed out that the Kirkwall elves don't seem to be treated as poorly as the Denerim ones.

NEWSFLASH: Not all cities in Thedas treat elves exactly the same.

Depends, the Denerim elves had less freedom but at least they had houses. The kirkwall elves all seem to have like 3 houses to themselves in the Alienage.

[fantasypisces]

addu2urmanapool wrote...

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

One point I wanted to touch on is the Alienage. In Kirkwall, the Alienage is a single square with a tree in the middle.

Would it REALLY have taken such a large amount of resources to, you know, make it it's own neighbourhood instead of about 1/2 the size of Gamlen's shack interior? Maybe...gasp...2 squares instead of one square? Throw in a merchant and maybe another building to go in? Put some dirt and filth and wounded poor people laying around?

Merril kept complaining about how untidy her place was, but um...it was spotless. So was the Alienage. For such a dirty filthy crawling area, it was immaculate. Immersion failure there. Was her place small? It seemed like a fairly big one bedroom apartment by my standards living in Toronto.

The Alienage in Denerim by contrast felt dirty, sick and crowded. Creepy. It had merchants and sick people coughing (plot related I know ) and buildings to go into and quests in it that were superb (The orphange)...and this was just one little area of ONE of the cities in Origins, yet it was 10000 times superior to the ONLY city in Dragon Age 2. And anyone wonders why people feel the game is rushed and corner cutting?

Maker's breath!

Great post. Like MonkeyLungs, I wonder what Bioware Trolls could possibly say to rebut these points.

Also agree, good post.
I first thought after visiting everywhere in act1 was "ummm, maybe I don't remember right, but wasn't Denerim bigger? And that was just one small subsection in Origins."

[MonkeyLungs]

fantasypisces wrote...

Also agree, good post.
I first thought after visiting everywhere in act1 was "ummm, maybe I don't remember right, but wasn't Denerim bigger? And that was just one small subsection in Origins."

Kirkwall is larger than Denerim. It also allows for some quite tall buildings. It's Bioware's best city since their move to 3D. It's still pretty sad.
Bioware games are good despite their linear levels and primarily bad level design. Some of their dungeons have been excellent but their towns are like tiny little set pieces. It's just way too far of an abstraction for my taste. That's just how they like to do it.

[wintermonk]

Cybermortis wrote...

wintermonk wrote...


Also, originality can be overrated. It is obvious that this is a medieval European syle city. Hence it looks that way. It could have been made to look like something from a strange planet out of Star Wars, but would that be appropriate? Sorry, but medieval cities probably didn't vary that much from one city to another. Simply coming up with original stuff as an end in itself comes across contrived and forced. I like the familiarity of the city . And it DID have it's own look in subtle ways (as a former slave city).

European medieval cities do vary quite considerably, and did throughout history. Although there are stylistic trends for different regions, these trends change over time and only the 'higher-class' structures tend to remain for long periods of time. What you see in all old cities is a mixture of the old and the new - usually mixed together. It can be difficult to tell the old from the new, but the differences are there - it can be in the materials used, the way the bricks are put together or the size and design of the windows.

Cities are not unchanging, sterile enviroments. Indeed cities have always grown in a chaotic way until very recently. Nor do changes only appear over long periods of time. While changes to cities are usually gradual, there are also sudden rapid bursts of change over a very short space of time. For example the skyline of London changed dramatically between 1955-1965 as tower blocks were built. Likewise the Blitiz changed the skyline in the 1940's, and in the 1600's the Great Fire of London resulted in the layout of London being changed significantly in less than a decade.

Now the 'cities' we've seen in games can usually remain the same because we are not 'there' for a long period of time, or in the case of Sci-fi games can be assumed to be pre-planned. Kirkwall however shows no changes at all over the '10' years we are there. My home town's high street changed totally in 10 years, even if most of the same buildings are there the same shops are not. Banks have become bars, bars have become newsagents and estate agents have become boarded up empty buildings.

But in Kirkwall, which has at least one major battle taking place in the streets, nothing changes at all.

The fire of London took place during the renaissance, not the medieval age.  And the medieval age was nearly 1000 years long (far longer than the renaissance) and advancements were much slower.  You think london in 1180 was greatly different than London in 1190?

Modifié par wintermonk, 30 mars 2011 - 02:26 .

[TheStrand221]

wintermonk wrote...

Cybermortis wrote...

wintermonk wrote...


Also, originality can be overrated. It is obvious that this is a medieval European syle city. Hence it looks that way. It could have been made to look like something from a strange planet out of Star Wars, but would that be appropriate? Sorry, but medieval cities probably didn't vary that much from one city to another. Simply coming up with original stuff as an end in itself comes across contrived and forced. I like the familiarity of the city . And it DID have it's own look in subtle ways (as a former slave city).

European medieval cities do vary quite considerably, and did throughout history. Although there are stylistic trends for different regions, these trends change over time and only the 'higher-class' structures tend to remain for long periods of time. What you see in all old cities is a mixture of the old and the new - usually mixed together. It can be difficult to tell the old from the new, but the differences are there - it can be in the materials used, the way the bricks are put together or the size and design of the windows.

Cities are not unchanging, sterile enviroments. Indeed cities have always grown in a chaotic way until very recently. Nor do changes only appear over long periods of time. While changes to cities are usually gradual, there are also sudden rapid bursts of change over a very short space of time. For example the skyline of London changed dramatically between 1955-1965 as tower blocks were built. Likewise the Blitiz changed the skyline in the 1940's, and in the 1600's the Great Fire of London resulted in the layout of London being changed significantly in less than a decade.

Now the 'cities' we've seen in games can usually remain the same because we are not 'there' for a long period of time, or in the case of Sci-fi games can be assumed to be pre-planned. Kirkwall however shows no changes at all over the '10' years we are there. My home town's high street changed totally in 10 years, even if most of the same buildings are there the same shops are not. Banks have become bars, bars have become newsagents and estate agents have become boarded up empty buildings.

But in Kirkwall, which has at least one major battle taking place in the streets, nothing changes at all.

The fire of London took place during the renaissance, not the medieval age.  And the medieval age was nearly 1000 years long (far longer than the renaissance) and advancements were much slower.  You think london in 1180 was greatly different than London in 1190?

In a ten year period I bet merchants would have moved at least a few feet to the right or left, or changed their wares, or had any wares in their stall to begin with.

The point is taken though, I don't think anyone here is really too concerned about massive changes in the layout of Kirkwall.  That's almost asking too much given how little effort they put into making the city, despite the fact devs specifically promoted the idea of the whole game being set in Kirkwall by claiming it would change over the course of the story.  It didn't really.

Although a western fantasy game is going to draw on the real medieval period as a frame of reference, is there really any point in discussing the rate of change in specific historical examples when Kirkwall "exists" in an entirely different fictional space?  I bet 1180s London didn't have soaring skyscrapers either.  Even Lowtown's buildings are rather tall.  As I said though, your point is taken.

I defended DA2 a little bit on these forums, and like aspects of the game, but the bugs have soured me on the experience and now the flaws I may have been willing to overlook just glare at me.  They really made no effort with Kirkwall.  It has a few cool views, and I liked the designs that harkened back to its former status as a slave city, but it was lifeless.  No effort was made at an immersive environment, and we've been playing games with great cityscapes for years now so there really isn't a good explanation the devs can make as far as I'm concerned.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating:  Assassin's Creed did cities so well.  Granted that is a game all about navigating cityscapes, but Bioware didn't need to let us climb all over buildings and swing from potted plants.  Something larger and more reactive to the player was necessary to make Kirkwall worth visiting, instead we got a dungeon with a sky texture above us instead of a ceiling.  In Roma or Firenza individuals react to you running around, pushing past them, or jumping around like a monkey, staring and making comments.  When a fight erupts or they come across a dead body they flee in terror or stop to gawk.  Kirkwall could care less if you incinerate entire blocks with firestorm.  They'll keep running through their looped animations no matter what.

I'm back to playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood.  It's really telling that a game with a pretty thin story has me just wandering around looking at beautifully rendered historic monuments, stalking guards through the streets, and just drinking in the atmosphere of Roma at night.  It's completely immersive in a way Dragon Age never has been, because the cities have been made with the utmost care to feel and play as if they're alive.  Kirkwall, or any place in DA:O, is just a static painting and a poor one at that.  Roleplaying is more than a handful of conversation trees, no matter how well written and voice acted.

So voices here have been saying The Witcher did a great job with both aspects, maybe I should give it a look.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

I haven't finished Assassins Creed Brotherhood because I don't want it to end. I tend to charge through games. ACII I just wanted to sit in the chapels and stare at the ceiling.