202 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

I like Kirkwall, I like it much better than Denerim in fact.

But my favorite gaming city of all time?

Vizima in "The Witcher".

[gotthammer]

Persephone wrote...

I like Kirkwall, I like it much better than Denerim in fact.

But my favorite gaming city of all time?

Vizima in "The Witcher".

Hehe. As much as I loved DA:O, I couldn't help myself from comparing the much-better-done environments (including the city) in The Witcher to the ones in DA:O (and now, DA2).
Even the Vizima's sewer was memorable. 
IMHO, it's not just the layout, or the art style, but also the lighting (which, in turn, helps w/ atmosphere). IMHO, 'visual atmosphere' was quite lacking in DA:O. DA2 improved on it somewhat, but whatever immersion could've been gained by improvements in lighting and the sort, were, IMHO, ruined by the (very obvious) recycling of the environments.
Example: the subterranean environments, in both DA2 and DA:O were quite...'bright'/'well lit' (who the heck leaves all those torches?!?). Compare that to the lighting in the tunnels or the sewer in The Witcher. 
(btw, I'm not saying The Witcher is better than DA:O, as I love both, but it does have things it does way better than the latter. Better than DA2? IMHO, definitely.  ...maybe I can say 'as good as' if Bioware were to release an 'Enhanced Edition Director's Cut', heck, even just an 'Enhanced Edition'  )

The 'liveliness' of the city was actually a minor gripe of mine about DA:O: for a market district, it looked quite bare (I live in Metro Manila. If you've seen the areas even just AROUND the wet markets, esp. between morning and noon...) 
Vizima felt 'more alive' than Denerim (only the Alienage came close, I think). Kirkwall? Felt rather empty in comparison to the cities in DA:O or The Witcher.

[Tom Jolly]

Right on, OP.

[gotthammer]

I loved some of the concept art for Kirkwall...



...and I still think it really would've helped if they had somehow managed to translate those images into cutscenes in the game. 
I mean, to see 'more' of the city, I felt like I had to go out of my way (example: in Darktown, I have to go to the edge of the map to see more of the cliffs that allowed access into Kirkwall's 'bay', I guess). One can also see the Gallows, I think, from Hightown (at the marketplace)...again, 'not enough' to make the city more interesting.

[Rune-Chan]

Seriously, I think Bioware have gotten the picture by now.

... Now lets' hope they do something about it in the future.

Persephone wrote...

I like Kirkwall, I like it much better than Denerim in fact.

As do I, but the difference is that Denerim takes up about 5% of Origins, whereas Kirkwall is closer to 80% of DA2.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 31 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[planed scaped]

I didn't even release where the city was in terms of the land around it. When I played GTA4 or Assassin's Creed Brotherhood which they like to compare Kirkwall to after awhile I got a visual layout of the place in my brain.

I still have no idea what Kirkwall even looks like outside the in-game map that doesn't show you anything. Every level is very closed off so you can't look around the city much.

Modifié par planed scaped, 31 mars 2011 - 05:02 .

[gotthammer]

Yeah. As much as the stylized maps used to depict Kirkwall and the areas around it are a bit nice, I think I prefer the 'classic' map like that used for Denerim and Ferelden (at least you had a clearer idea of where's where...to some extent: if I read the maps right, I think Denerim on the world map is a bit off, particularly in relation to one of the rivers, or something like that lol)

And yeah, I really wanted to see more of the city considering, as 'Machines Are Us' pointed out, it's a majority of the game takes place.

[Faust1979]

How much do cities change over a 10 year period really? not much or very little at all. I don't know why people expected to see big changes to a city over a period of time. You might get a building or two over 7-10 years but really most of the time you won't notice

[Kimberly Shaw]

How much do cities change over a 10 year period really? not much or very little at all. I don't know why people expected to see big changes to a city over a period of time. You might get a building or two over 7-10 years but really most of the time you won't notice

Faust1979, I'm going to pick on you for a minute because you're defending the indefensible.

True, a city in this era of technology would not massively change in architecture over 7 years (don't use 10 years, only 7 years were playable in this game, 10 is the marketing ploy and encompasses 3 years after the game ends that are unplayable until the Seeker caught Varric). At the end of Act 2, I would argue, that the city was sacked and burned by the Qunari (fires everywhere) and you'd see a bit of difference in the city from that; but perhaps you're right.

That is not the point. The point many of us are making is two-fold.

1) Bioware could (should) have done some great things with the 7 year time change making the city react to choices made/factions aligned with/quests undertaken. This would make people feel their choices had impact on the game (something sorely missing I believe) and enhance replayability and immersion. This doesn't mean big new buildings spring up, maybe as you say this is asking too much.

2) The timeskips have ZERO impact on what clothes people wear on the streets, where the shops are, who is running the shops, where they stand, etc. My companions and family and friends never change clothes or age. Fenris's mansion has the same dead bodies on the floor for 7 years. This stuff may not matter to you, but a lot of us expect more from Bioware in terms of keeping immersion going. Sure it doesn't impact the "push a button something awesome happens" combat or even the main quest storyline, but for those of us who enjoy the escapism, a 3 year time jump should look like it's 3 years later. I almost feel act 2 and 3 should have been a few months apart because the 3 year time skip has so little impact on anything. At least between act 1 and 2 the Hawke family moves into a new house.

A few minor changes could have greatly helped us feel like it was 3 years later. Instead, no, they didn't even bother. The sun moved positions (feels like later that day, not later that decade) and a few new barrels and chests were put in. It flies in tandem with the reused dungeons they didn't even bother to block off on the minimaps. It's sloppy and cheap and beneath a great company like Bioware.

Modifié par Kimberly Shaw, 31 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[88mphSlayer]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I'm pretty sure the "Imperial City" the OP is talking about is the one in Jade Empire, which feels far more vibrant and alive than Kirkwall and that game was made SIX YEARS AGO.

i played Jade Empire for the first time a couple months ago and i thought Imperial City was a let down

Oblivion isn't much better, every building you can go into but the city is so blah and cut & paste

i think the best modern city in an rpg i've played is the witcher with vizima, lots of npc's doing things, animals and whatnot in the rural countryside, lots of variety in locations... although that said vizima is tiny compared to Kirkwall so they could pack so much more detail into such a tinier space, if Kirkwall was as small as Vizima then gamers would still be let down

then there's Fable 2 which does a good job of showing villages age/change over time

outside of rpg's Assassins Creed 1/2/3 and GTA4 reign king

i'm not going to bring up infinity engine rpg's because making a 2d city with sprites really has nothing in common with the challenge of making a fully realized 3d city

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 31 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[88mphSlayer]

Faust1979 wrote...

How much do cities change over a 10 year period really? not much or very little at all. I don't know why people expected to see big changes to a city over a period of time. You might get a building or two over 7-10 years but really most of the time you won't notice

i thought the Qunari revolt should've really radically changed the city

if you've ever been to an american city that had race riots in the 60's you'd notice swaths of older buildings missing now replaced by parking lots or newer larger construction from the 70's because of areas being burned down

[untoldsarcasm]

Honestly this is my issue with Kirkwall. I'm not against having one city as the main focus, but it needs to have so much more life than what we were given for it to be successful. And less reused dungeons.

[neppakyo]

88mphSlayer wrote...

i thought the Qunari revolt should've really radically changed the city

It did. They blocked off the Qunari compound. 

[Dagiz]

I do agree that after the Qunari revolt there should have been some changes to Kirkwall.  Whole heartedly agree.  That being said, as far as great game cities...I've only seen three, maybe four listed.  Atathkla, Viziam, Rome in Assasin's Creed II (which off topic but all the comments are making me want to go get it) and Denerim.  Am I missing any? Maybe Baldur's Gate.  Okay so a total of five cities that I can see...and I may have missed a couple that were mentioned.  that being said, comparing kirkwall to these cities, to me, would be a compliment since they were great cities.  

Don't get me wrong, they could have done more, I agree with that.  But all in all, if one is only talking about those cities being better and greater in depth...than that's not too shabby considering all the games that have come and gone in the last ten years.  Just something I noticed.  And I'll reiterate for those that think I am completely defending the design of Kirkwall, it could have been better no doubt.  But taking all the cities that have been presented in the past, its not that bad.

[88mphSlayer]

Dagiz wrote...

I do agree that after the Qunari revolt there should have been some changes to Kirkwall.  Whole heartedly agree.  That being said, as far as great game cities...I've only seen three, maybe four listed.  Atathkla, Viziam, Rome in Assasin's Creed II (which off topic but all the comments are making me want to go get it) and Denerim.  Am I missing any? Maybe Baldur's Gate.  Okay so a total of five cities that I can see...and I may have missed a couple that were mentioned.  that being said, comparing kirkwall to these cities, to me, would be a compliment since they were great cities.  

Don't get me wrong, they could have done more, I agree with that.  But all in all, if one is only talking about those cities being better and greater in depth...than that's not too shabby considering all the games that have come and gone in the last ten years.  Just something I noticed.  And I'll reiterate for those that think I am completely defending the design of Kirkwall, it could have been better no doubt.  But taking all the cities that have been presented in the past, its not that bad.

well that's why i don't mind all of DA2 taking place in or around Kirkwall... so few rpg's do urban fantasy anymore it's all about adventuring around the countryside like LOTR or Oblivion nowadays

also @ your list, Assassins Creed 2 takes place in many different locations - the largest being Venice

Assassins Creed 3/Brotherhood (whatever you want to call it) takes place entirely in Rome and does a great job

[Dagiz]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Dagiz wrote...

I do agree that after the Qunari revolt there should have been some changes to Kirkwall.  Whole heartedly agree.  That being said, as far as great game cities...I've only seen three, maybe four listed.  Atathkla, Viziam, Rome in Assasin's Creed II (which off topic but all the comments are making me want to go get it) and Denerim.  Am I missing any? Maybe Baldur's Gate.  Okay so a total of five cities that I can see...and I may have missed a couple that were mentioned.  that being said, comparing kirkwall to these cities, to me, would be a compliment since they were great cities.  

Don't get me wrong, they could have done more, I agree with that.  But all in all, if one is only talking about those cities being better and greater in depth...than that's not too shabby considering all the games that have come and gone in the last ten years.  Just something I noticed.  And I'll reiterate for those that think I am completely defending the design of Kirkwall, it could have been better no doubt.  But taking all the cities that have been presented in the past, its not that bad.

well that's why i don't mind all of DA2 taking place in or around Kirkwall... so few rpg's do urban fantasy anymore it's all about adventuring around the countryside like LOTR or Oblivion nowadays

also @ your list, Assassins Creed 2 takes place in many different locations - the largest being Venice

Assassins Creed 3/Brotherhood (whatever you want to call it) takes place entirely in Rome and does a great job

Ahh okay, never played Assasin's Creed...any of them, so now that makes it even more interesting...damn you forums for giving me other game ideas...

[Dark Specie]

Yeah,Kirkwall should've had a bit more life to it.

I don't mind being restricted to (mostly) one location (Kirkwall) for an entire game, but then it needs to make up for the lack of a myriad of areas to visit, especially considering that several years pass between the arcs, during which we see very few changes.to the city...

[LocutusX]

planed scaped wrote...

I didn't even release where the city was in terms of the land around it. When I played GTA4 or Assassin's Creed Brotherhood which they like to compare Kirkwall to after awhile I got a visual layout of the place in my brain.

I still have no idea what Kirkwall even looks like outside the in-game map that doesn't show you anything. Every level is very closed off so you can't look around the city much.

From what I understand, the city of Kirkwall (Hightown) is built on top of some cliffs. Actually when you are near the edge
of the market area (where the Mine Owner hangs around) if you go near the fence you can see the sea in the distance.

It seems as if Darktown is built *into* the cliffs - this part was realized pretty well; when you are in parts of Darktown you can see the cliff rock
around you and the sea right below you. There is a ledge which has nice views.

Lowtown appears to be built at the bottom of the cliffs, near the shore, while the Docks
are obviously right on the shore. And the Gallows is an island in the middle of the Docks' harbour.

The problem is that it's not really presented all that well in the game. You do have to use
your imagination quite a bit. What would have helped is a nice intro cinematic which shows the boat crusing
towards the city, so you can kinda see all parts of the city at the same time.
Also, transition cinematics between the different parts of the city... can be disabled in menu options, or simply not shown after shown once.
Transitions are hot right now. Ever watched a Blu-Ray? The good ones have neat graphical transitions from one screen to another.

There were a couple of neat movie-style cinematics in DA:O, which showed the player what Arl Howe/Logain/Anora were up to, while the
Hero was off fighting level 20 bandits in another part of the map. Those scenes added to immersion.

Yes, all this is going to cost $$$. It's up to Bioware to push their publisher to give them money to make all this stuff.
Unless they're content to keep getting 7.8 to 8.0s on metacritic from now on, a far cry from the 94% average their stuff used to command.
If you guys start slacking off, some new upstart will take your place - that's how it usually works.

[Cybermortis]

If different sections of the city were at different levels, they could have added an elevator you can take between areas. This would have allowed you too look out over the city and get an idea of the layout. They could even have added a guard who operates the elevator who passes on rumours and comments about events both in the city and elsewhere. This would give a better impression of being part of a 'real' world and make more sense than managing to get rumours from Varric without having talked to him.

They could also have used this elevator to block off some sections of the city, since the guard wouldn't let someone from Lowtown/Darktown board and go to Hightown unless they either lived there or had some sort of pass. This would also give a better feeling to Hawke having gone up in the world, since in the first act the guard isn't going to let this Ferelden creep into the high status areas unless they can find a pass - and then they would probably get the 'cause trouble and we'll throw you over the edge' speech. Later the same guard would almost certain switch to sucking up to a Hawke who lives in Hightown.

[StuartMarshall]

They should have had some rural villages on the outskirts for fresh scenery and quests, the Lothering style villages. Closest we got was like the Wounded Coast, which we only had to go back to about... 10 times.

Assassin's Creed has basically set a new standard for inhabited cities. There are people EVERYWHERE, sometimes the streets are so crowded that you have to shuffle around people. The cities feel alive and even the outer villages have a realistic sized population.

Modifié par StuartMarshall, 31 mars 2011 - 08:50 .

[Dark83]

I'm tempted to grab AC:B next time it's on sale, if only because of comments in this thread.
I tried AC1 and it was repetitive and got boring quickly. Haven't looked at the series since.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Dark83 wrote...

I'm tempted to grab AC:B next time it's on sale, if only because of comments in this thread.
I tried AC1 and it was repetitive and got boring quickly. Haven't looked at the series since.

Definitely improved. I would play 2 beforehand just to get the story and it's a very good game.

[barenas]

Dark83 wrote...

I'm tempted to grab AC:B next time it's on sale, if only because of comments in this thread.
I tried AC1 and it was repetitive and got boring quickly. Haven't looked at the series since.

The newest AC has improved upon that a lot. There are more rpg elements into the game now as well. Well worth the price in my opinion.

[StuartMarshall]

The AC series is fantastic and probably the best example of how you can learn from a game and make it better. Some thought AC2 was as good as it got and that AC:B would be a rushed spin-off but somehow they made AC:B even better and just as big. As someone said it has some RPG elements too, you can level up your hired assassins, etc.

[The_FenixV]

addu2urmanapool wrote...

Kirkwall was supposed to be the ultimate game city, since you spend your ENTIRE TIME there. Yet I look at Taris, or Armadillo, or the Imperial City, and each one, though only a small part of a game with many more locations, overshadows the pathetic clinical, cold, boring Kirkwall.

The city is supposed to feel like a prison. In a sense they succeeded, a lifeless city because everyone seems to be a bunch of mutes. In Oblivion the imperial city was also dull to me, not grand at all, I mean every damn npcs had the same voice, that's worse than the lifeless Kirkwall we have.