78 réponses à ce sujet

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...
I don't let anyone run amok. I set to Hold on default and manually do everything on Hard and Nightmare. I only rely on Tactics on Normal.

You do realize that as soon as an enemy gets close to any of your units (if you use the hold command) that they will just stand there frozen with fear, not doing anything at all (since the AI routine wants to make the unit run away, but since they are on hold they can't, so they opt to do the next best thing...nothing at all), and you either have to move them OR you have to select the entire group and manually click each shot right?  Not trying to be a jerk, but have you really actually played the game?

I don't let my Mage do a lot of Staff attacks precisely because the 3rd and 4th animation delay casting. As a matter of fact, my Archer Hawke does a lot of running, too, since moving around is beneficial for a ranged character, and running around doesn't impact speed of attack as long as you click to attack every time the cooldown for attack is down (like micro-ing Marauders in SC2).

I'm just not convinced, primarily because of just how much you have to manually control everyone else, literally at all times.  It's physically impossible to do what you're claiming unless you're sacrificing what the rest of the group is able to do by simply ignoring all but the tank and yourself.  Even then, often it's a complete waste of a stagger to use a spell on units that are half dead anyway -- at least something lower than an Assassin.  If you aren't using a spell, the only other thing you can do is staff attack.

The Stun effect is listed separately. In general, the damage I see from Maker's Hammer is comparable (but noticeably less) with Chain Lightning unless the enemy is either vulnerable or immune to Lightning damage.

Again, not convinced.  You should try paying a lot closer attention while using the spell, and purposely keep track of Warrior units vs Rogue vs Mage units and the average damage across them all.  The Warrior units will always be lower.

Modifié par Graunt, 29 mars 2011 - 06:17 .

[Roxlimn]

You do realize that as soon as an enemy gets close to any of your units (if you use the hold command) that they will just stand there frozen with fear, not doing anything at all (since the AI routine wants to make the unit run away, but since they are on hold they can't, so they opt to do the next best thing...nothing at all), and you either have to move them OR you have to select the entire group and manually click each shot right? Not trying to be a jerk, but have you really actually played the game?

Yes, and yes. I manually oversee each shot, generally. I have Tactics set on Enemy: Lowest Health - Attack somewhere, but generally, I don't let them attack anything unless I say so. And yes, I played through both Hard campaigns this way.

I'm just not convinced, primarily because of just how much you have to manually control everyone else, literally at all times. It's physically impossible to do what you're claiming unless you're sacrificing what the rest of the group is able to do by simply ignoring all but the tank and yourself. Even then, often it's a complete waste of a stagger to use a spell on units that are half dead anyway -- at least something lower than an Assassin. If you aren't using a spell, the only other thing you can do is staff attack.

Shrug. I LIKE manually controlling my dudes at all times. Yes, literally. And I kind of miss the isometic view. And I hate the bug where you can't click on anything when you're switching between characters on pause. It happens constantly.

It's not physically impossible to control everyone if you pause the game liberally. Which I do.

Again, not convinced. You should try paying a lot closer attention while using the spell, and purposely keep track of Warrior units vs Rogue vs Mage units and the average damage across them all. The Warrior units will always be lower.

An exploit is an exploit. My alternative is to do Staff autoattacks like you do. I'll take the thousand+ multitarget damage.

I think you may have an issue with generating enough Staggers to exploit. I sometimes run on two Mages - Hawke and Merrill. They both have Chain Reaction. It's still not enough to exploit every Stagger generated. I only have enough when I also use Fist of the Maker. Granted, I'm not running Hemorrage, but that's on a 30s cooldown. My battles rarely last long enough to use something like that thrice.

Let's get to brass tacks.  My main purpose is to relate my experience, since I've used Maker's Hammer a lot, and you haven't.  You may want this information, or you may not.  That's completely up to you.  It's the same with the Pull thing.  The way I use it, I can get enemies clumped up reliably.  You can ask me HOW I do it, or you can just say it's impossible.  That's up to you.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 29 mars 2011 - 06:28 .

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...
Yes, and yes. I manually oversee each shot, generally. I have Tactics set on Enemy: Lowest Health - Attack somewhere, but generally, I don't let them attack anything unless I say so. And yes, I played through both Hard campaigns this way.

Oh, this is probably why my perspective and experiences are quite different from yours.  I know that Nightmare is not the only difficulty in the game, and I also realize that more people may actually play below that difficulty compared to those that play on it -- but it's the only difficulty I'll play on.  Anything below is just way too easy no matter what class/spec.  I think you said elsewhere that you have played on Nightmare, but it's not your prefered difficulty.  It's all I play on, so I guess I have a lot more exposure to all of the various issues you don't seem to ever encounter.  Health is higher, armor is higher, damage is higher, spell resistances, elemental immunities etc.

Also, since you play below Nightmare (I'm assuming more often than not), it's easy as hell for you to use a Two-Handed Warrior.  You can't gib your entire group accidentally, so of course you can have staggers left and right.  You never have to worry about positioning.

Modifié par Graunt, 29 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Musou1776]

Grant you make a lot of sense on your attribute advice. 10 extra points or more into con giving 50 health for survivability verus 5 extra points of base damage seems like another easy call. I was thinking along the lines of keeping falling star on my BM before you brought it up.

[SolidSnake7]

I'm thinking of trying a mage on Nightmare and was thinking of going this route. I ran Aveline/Varric/Merril and my Hawkmage on normal. Merrill's Blood magic is beast so I was thinking 2 Blood Mages and Varric/Aveline would be pretty decent for most anything. Any suggestions?

[Roxlimn]

Oh, this is probably why my perspective and experiences are quite different from yours. I know that Nightmare is not the only difficulty in the game, and I also realize that more people may actually play below that difficulty compared to those that play on it -- but it's the only difficulty I'll play on. Anything below is just way too easy no matter what class/spec. I think you said elsewhere that you have played on Nightmare, but it's not your prefered difficulty. It's all I play on, so I guess I have a lot more exposure to all of the various issues you don't seem to ever encounter. Health is higher, armor is higher, damage is higher, spell resistances, elemental immunities etc.

I have played a good number of encounters on Nightmare. I have saves at various points in the game, so it's easy to just load up, get some Maker's Sighs and experiment.

I haven't played an entire campaign on Nightmare, but I don't think I will. I can't choose just whatever on that setting, and I like to choose just whatever.

Based on the encounters I played, I did not notice a significant increase in Health and Armor, but significant increases in immunities, damage, and spell resistances. My benchmark is the CCCs, of course. It takes about a similar number of CCCs to kill stuff.

Between the resistances and the immunities, I actually appreciated the Force spells more on Nightmare than on Hard. I was okay with being backstabbed by an Assassin on Hard. That won't do on Nightmare, so Telekinetic Burst gains more significance. Also, useful for positioning enemies to avoid FF.

Also, since you play below Nightmare (I'm assuming more often than not), it's easy as hell for you to use a Two-Handed Warrior.  You can't gib your entire group accidentally, so of course you can have staggers left and right.  You never have to worry about positioning.

I wouldn't accidentally insta-gib my group anyway, just like I don't accidentally send Aveline right into the middle of a Gravitic Ring.  This is because they're on Hold by default and I position them manually.  I've played encounters on Nightmare with Fenris and Aveline + Merill and Hawke Mage.  They were not accidentally insta-gibbed, and I generally kept Fenris and Aveline well-spaced.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 29 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[Graunt]

Musou1776 wrote...

Grant you make a lot of sense on your attribute advice. 10 extra points or more into con giving 50 health for survivability verus 5 extra points of base damage seems like another easy call. I was thinking along the lines of keeping falling star on my BM before you brought it up.

I keep it on my BM regardless. I screwed a few things up, and I don't feel like playing the last 45 minutes of my last game again to "get it right", but I had 405 health, 459 mana and 65% reduction on my last Mage with 58 MAG.  I'm also not entirely sure how armor reduction truly works either.  At this point, I probably could have sacrificed 6 CON easily.

Mana is typically not all that useful for a Blood Mage, but having that much mana for the final fight is actually very useful since the only spell that you would even bother with from the Blood tree has no effect on the statues.  You can simply cast all day from your actual mana pool during those segments and then activate BM for the Merideth portions and regen it back a bit.

I don't know if every single enemy in the game scales with your level, or if say, you were level 22 and you fought Merideth if she would also be lvl 22, or if bosses are the exception and have a fixed level.  Wearing the same gear at level 24 as you did level 22 actually lowers your reduction level since it's now being based on a level 24 creature.

just like I don't accidentally send Aveline right into the middle of a Gravitic Ring.

I don't "send" her there either, she runs there automatically at times, especially if I'm already using her to manually activate stagger abilities against those already stuck.  I can't speak for everyone, but always having the game on hold 100% of the time is goddamn tedious and in no way fun.  It becomes an extremely long turn based game.

That won't do on Nightmare, so Telekinetic Burst gains more significance.

That works well enough on "normal" level "Rogue" class enemies, but rarely, if ever works at all against real Assassins, especially Templar Hunters.  Pull NEVER works on Assassins/Hunters and the only Force ability that works 99.9999% of the time is Gravitic.  Fist lands the stun around 75% of the time.

Modifié par Graunt, 29 mars 2011 - 07:00 .

[MASSter EFFECTer]

@Graunt-
I assume you never take Gravitic Sphere because of FF?

Also (anyone) how useful would an a tactic setup for aveline to
use a (insert STAGGER inducing move here) ability
with the condition of a slowed enemy after PotA>>GR or GR?

[Graunt]

MASSter EFFECTer wrote...

@Graunt-
I assume you never take Gravitic Sphere because of FF?

Also (anyone) how useful would an a tactic setup for aveline to
use a (insert STAGGER inducing move here) ability
with the condition of a slowed enemy after PotA>>GR or GR?

Nah, the default radius has always been more than sufficient, especially with hallways/doorways to lessen the free space that's already available anyway.  If I had to swap points around though from my last Mage, I would probably drop the Pull upgrade to try out Sphere.

As for your tactic suggestion, that's actually quite brilliant if the game can actually do that correctly.  That's how I have to end up manually using her on everything that's stuck in the center anyway.  

There are actually three status effects it could fall under: Slowed, Paralyzed, Cannot Attack.  I have no idea what Gravitic would fall under either because they are slowed, yet they are slowed to the point where they cannot attack (if in the center).  The same thing with being Paralyzed.  If they are Paralyzed they cannot attack, yet this would also make her attack something that Anders has under a glyph, and so she could potentially smash him in the face too.

There's also the issue of her trying to attack something that is simply "slowed" by trying to get to them by walking directly towards the center and getting stuck herself.

Modifié par Graunt, 29 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[MASSter EFFECTer]

I don't know if Bioware will ever get this AI problem fixed.. I'm going to wait a while to
do my NM BM playthrough , cuz I don't want to deal with playing Aveline half the time.

They should add a FORCE MAGED status to solve the issue, lol.

Modifié par MASSter EFFECTer, 29 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[Critical Miss]

Loved playing a blood mage so am going to give this a go. Probably die lots though. Thanks for posting.

[Besetment]

Is it worth buying the 2x upgrades for Fist of the Maker? I keep wanting to do it but I always find ability points are too scarce and something else always comes up.

[SuicidalBaby]

no

[Roxlimn]

Graunt:

I don't "send" her there either, she runs there automatically at times, especially if I'm already using her to manually activate stagger abilities against those already stuck. I can't speak for everyone, but always having the game on hold 100% of the time is goddamn tedious and in no way fun. It becomes an extremely long turn based game.

Not that long. Finished in 55 hours or so. I don't pause the game every 5 seconds or anything. If I've got a Firestorm/Tempest raining on a Gravitic Trap, I just let the game run and just move Hawke around so he doesn't autoattack into a fancy flourish.

Aveline won't run into that death trap if she's on Hold - that's the valuable thing.

That works well enough on "normal" level "Rogue" class enemies, but rarely, if ever works at all against real Assassins, especially Templar Hunters. Pull NEVER works on Assassins/Hunters and the only Force ability that works 99.9999% of the time is Gravitic. Fist lands the stun around 75% of the time.

It doesn't throw them back, no, but it does reveal them when they're Stealthed, and that's more important. Keeping away from uncontrolled Hunters occupies an important portion of battle time. I suppose I could just take the Creation tree instead of Force, but Creation doesn't give me Gravitic Ring, and I've already got Telekinetic Burst. Might as well use it.

Besetment:

Is it worth buying the 2x upgrades for Fist of the Maker? I keep wanting to do it but I always find ability points are too scarce and something else always comes up.

It depends on what you're using it for.  I used Fist for my second Stagger exploit, so the +800% damage on Stagger was pretty important.  Once I was using it for that, I fonud that being able to use it 33% more often was a useful thing to have, so I ended up with both upgrades.  If you can't manage to use it for exploiting Staggers, then both upgrades are useless.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 29 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Ace Attorney]

Wrong topic, ignore me, lol

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 29 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[Gloxgasm]

I tried getting horror on my solo game and always gave up on it because it would last roughly 3 seconds. It would last more on archers which was mildly helpful but assassins would break it too quickly.

>>>> Assassins don't stealth if they are the last mob alive <<<<<<

In case anyone here didn't know that. Killing the 4 guys that come with them is a faster way to make them worthless to a fight then any CC.

[GabranthSG]

I'm having a hard time deciding between the Robes of unblemished cleanliness from the Black emporium and The champion's armor. If I were to choose the champion's armor, I'd equip the whole set to get the set bonus. But the robe is just too good imo.

[Amioran]

Graunt wrote...
You do realize that as soon as an enemy gets close to any of your units (if you use the hold command) that they will just stand there frozen with fear, not doing anything at all (since the AI routine wants to make the unit run away, but since they are on hold they can't, so they opt to do the next best thing...nothing at all), and you either have to move them OR you have to select the entire group and manually click each shot right?  Not trying to be a jerk, but have you really actually played the game?

However this happens only if the tactics behaviour is set to "ranged". It doesn't happen if it is put to "aggressive" or either "passive" (better "passive" because elsewhere melee attackers can go in the same "loop" trying to go after targets).

I used Hold a lot too on my 2nd nightmare run just using "passive/aggressive" (depending on class) for everyone. You just have to move them, but they will attack as usual this way, and use all the tactics fine.

The problem arises, because, as you specified, with the "ranged" behaviour they try to escape from close range, however since they are on hold they cannot do it and so it happens what it is called an "infinite loop". Since both aggressive and/or passive behaviours don't try move out from melee range the problem doesn't arise. Naturally you will have to take care of them not being stunlocked to death, moving them personally, but it is much more feasible this way. At last you don't have to attack/use abilities manually all the time. Melee attackers in aggressive can stuck to because they tro to go in range of a specific enemy, causing the aforemenioned "loop", but either there if you select manuall a target you are fine.

Modifié par Amioran, 29 mars 2011 - 09:47 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Because of this I have a general rule,

Inside? cave, warehouse, foundry, ruins: aggressive
Outside? Ranged

This has brought my rage level down considerablly.

[Graunt]

Thanks for the suggestions on which settings to use and for what areas.  I had all of my ranged set to "ranged" (except with Anders, I've tried passive, cautious, defensive, everything and he just seems totally broken), but the behaviour just never worked out the way I wanted it to, especially inside.  Still, if you read the actual descriptions on passive and aggressive, you would think those would actually cause your allies to get killed even more, but I suppose them at least attempting to do anything at all is better than just standing on the chopping block twiddling their thumbs.  They never run out of area of effect spells anyway, no matter what setting you have it on, so at least with aggressive they should fight back.

Anders however seems like a completely lost cause.  I don't know what the hell Bioware was thinking with him, but he just does some of the craziest stuff, especially when it comes to running up to staff attack a target he was hitting just fine a few seconds before (and he was already closer than Hawke was, and Hawke remains where he was).  He does this so damned much.  It's like there's a hidden "lemming" setting especially for him that overrides everything else.

Modifié par Graunt, 30 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[SuicidalBaby]

its driving me to even more aggressive group set ups that dont include anders. fenris/merrill/harmony varric atm lvl 10 testing apostate spam in a can build.

[Roxlimn]

Graunt wrote...

Thanks for the suggestions on which settings to use and for what areas.  I had all of my ranged set to "ranged" (except with Anders, I've tried passive, cautious, defensive, everything and he just seems totally broken), but the behaviour just never worked out the way I wanted it to, especially inside.  Still, if you read the actual descriptions on passive and aggressive, you would think those would actually cause your allies to get killed even more, but I suppose them at least attempting to do anything at all is better than just standing on the chopping block twiddling their thumbs.  They never run out of area of effect spells anyway, no matter what setting you have it on, so at least with aggressive they should fight back.

Anders however seems like a completely lost cause.  I don't know what the hell Bioware was thinking with him, but he just does some of the craziest stuff, especially when it comes to running up to staff attack a target he was hitting just fine a few seconds before (and he was already closer than Hawke was, and Hawke remains where he was).  He does this so damned much.  It's like there's a hidden "lemming" setting especially for him that overrides everything else.

He wouldn't do that if he were on Hold command.

Guys on Hold command and Aggressive just sit where you plunk them and fire away - extremely useful for Varric and Anders considering the suicidal nature of their movement algos.  Both Kickback and Stone Fist allow you to get them to do something to distance enemies from them when the other is attacked.

Hold is a toggle command - Hold when you're fighting, unhold when you want everyone to move forward.  One of the reasons I loved the Hold option was because at one point, I was going around with a 3-ranged group.

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...


He wouldn't do that if he were on Hold command.

Congrats, point...missed.

[Roxlimn]

Graunt wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
He wouldn't do that if he were on Hold command.

Congrats, point...missed.

Hey, I'm just saying.  The guy isn't a lost cause.  Just tell him not to move anywhere you don't tell him to.  You have a problem.  I don't have that problem.  I'm suggesting an option you're not using that may alleviate that problem.  Again, whether or not you use that information is completely up to you.

[Besetment]

Keeping your dudes on hold position is very annoying in this game because you can't queue actions.