65 réponses à ce sujet

[Siduri]

So, on my first playthrough, I liked keeper Merethari a lot. I mean, what's not to like? She's dignified, respectful, and seems very wise.

On my second playthrough, my opinion did a one-eighty. That woman is EEEEEVIL.

I mean, firstly, she's wrong about everything. She's wrong about Feynriel needing to be made Tranquil, and if you listen to her (as I did on my first playthrough) you will end up committing a needless atrocity against a gifted young man. Furthermore, it's Keeper Merethari's poisonous words that leads Pol to run away from Merrill into the jaws of the varterral. Like Merrill says--she's never done anything to hurt the clan, and it doesn't make sense for them to fear her so much. Of course later you find that Pol fears Merrill so much because Merethari told him to.

And Keeper Merethari sent those hunters to their deaths in the first place. Why has the varterral turned against the Dalish? Probably because it senses the demon's influence--the demon who is working through Merethari. Like Merrill says over and over, "Something is terribly wrong here." But Merrill isn't willing to see where the wrongness truly lies. If Merethari were doing her duty to the clan, she'd have led them away from Sundermount months ago, and they'd be safe. Instead she keeps them close to the demon's influence, sending them into the jaws of monsters, and filling them with hatred against Merrill.

The demon is a pride spirit. It's easy to see how Merrill's pride makes her vulnerable. But Merethari is also inflexible in her pride, so certain that she and only she knows what's best for the clan, that she's ultimately willing to destroy everything in justification of her beliefs. Merethari is actually better prey for the demon than Merrill, because at least Merrill knows that what she's doing is dangerous. Merethari is filled with self-righteousness and certainty instead. She's filled with pride.

Everything bad that happens to the Dalish is ultimately Merethari's fault. Yes, Merrill knows that she's taking a risk when she's willing to deal with the demon. That's why she brings Hawke along, to kill her if she fails. She's actually doing the responsible thing to protect others from the repercussions of her actions. If Merrill had her way, the Eluvian would be restored--and then a Pride demon would come through. And then Hawke would kill it. But Merrill and her clan would have the Eluvian and its power to help them restore their ancient heritage. Problem solved! Happy ending!

Instead, because Merethari has instilled such a terrible fear of Merrill into her clan--and then MERETHARI goes and does the one thing she kept warning everybody that Merrill would do--the most likely outcome (two out of three dialog choices) is the destruction of her entire clan. Even the "happy" ending leaves the clan without a Keeper, weakened by the deaths of their hunters and stranded in a terribly dangerous place where they never should have been forced to stay.

Merethari is willing to throw away the lives of her whole clan just to "prove" she knows better than Merrill. I'm sure she thinks she's acting out of love, but I'm convinced that Pride demon got its hooks into Merethari a lot earlier than anybody noticed. She seems like such a sweet old lady, but that woman is toxic.

[Matterialize]

I agree.

[LobselVith8]

I agree. I think Audacity's plan the entire time was for Marethari to make a deal in order to protect Merrill, since we know demons can see into the minds of mortals (given how the Desire Demon was able to see what Sebastian wanted, for instance).

[UltiPup]

Um, wrong about Feynriel? She was 100% correct. If he got possessed by the demon, he should be made Tranquil. His powers were indeed powerful but if he could not control them, then it had to be done. It is all possible for Feynriel to get possessed. She never said it HAD to be done but should Feynriel fall to the demon, it must be done.

[Sarah1281]

I disagree utterly.

She's wrong about Feynriel needing to be made Tranquil, and if you listen to her (as I did on my first playthrough) you will end up committing a needless atrocity against a gifted young man.

Marethari never outright tells you to do this. She says that she fears it will be necessary and tells you that in the event that you cannot save Feynriel you need to make him Tranquil so that the demon possessing him will not wreak havoc. She warns you that if a demon possess him then it would be virtually unstoppable. Immediately killing him was never the end goal. If that aws what Marethari was angling for she could have just slit his throat while he was in his coma. Feynriel (either because you point it out or otherwise) manages to fight the demon off on his own. Then it is Feynriel himself who asks you to make him Tranquil as he doesn't believe he can handle his power. You can either listen to HIM or you can convince him that he can do it and he heads off to Tevinter where, as far as we know, he's fine. If you decide to take 'as a last-ditch effort should you fail at keeping him from being possessed then kill him to protect everyone' to mean 'kill him on sight' then that's you not listening.

Furthermore, it's Keeper Merethari's poisonous words that leads Pol to run away from Merrill into the jaws of the varterral.

No, that is Pol being a ******. If he's running away from Merrill, running past her out of the cave is the smart move. And Merrill is only a maybe-threat versus the very real threat of the varterral...which he already knew about. Marethari can't be blamed for the fact that Pol snaps under pressure.

And it should be clear to everyone that Merrill is only a maybe-threat as if she were a certain threat then the clan would probably try to kill her and certainly wouldn't allow her to keep visiting. Pol was raised in an Alienage and so he has the Andrastian view of blood magic.

Should Marethari have kept the true fact that Merrill was a blood mage consorting with a demon secret? That seems irresponsible. Then if Merrill got possessed everyone would be taken by surprise. Marethari told people to make sure they were on their guard in case the worst happened. Notice how no one but Pol died over this? And if it weren't for the creature then Pol wouldn't have died over it either.

And Keeper Merethari sent those hunters to their deaths in the first place. Why has the varterral turned against the Dalish? Probably because it senses the demon's influence--the demon who is working through Merethari.

I don't think we know just how long the hunters were dead for and Marethari clearly didn't anticipate that the demon would turn the varterral against the Dalish. Once she knew, she stopped sending them and seeks its destruction to protect her clan. Merrill, always quick to blame everything on the Keeper, even says it wasn't the Keeper's fault and she couldn't have seen it coming.

If Merethari were doing her duty to the clan, she'd have led them away from Sundermount months ago, and they'd be safe. Instead she keeps them close to the demon's influence, sending them into the jaws of monsters, and filling them with hatred against Merrill.

We all know that Merethari should have had them leave because it was dangerous for the Dalish to stay in any one place for too long but Marethari's blindness was Merrill and so she wouldn't leave while Merrill was in danger. This is not good Keeper behavior.

Just the same, the demon was sealed away and had been for centurues. I don't think THAT was why so much was wrong there. It was probably the same thin veil that gave Kirkwall its rampant blood mage problem. And she didn't urge the clan to hate Merrill! She gave them the facts and they made their own decisions. If anything, Merrill made the clan hate Merrill by becoming a blood mage that consorted with demons.

But Merethari is also inflexible in her pride, so certain that she and only she knows what's best for the clan, that she's ultimately willing to destroy everything in justification of her beliefs. Merethari is actually better prey for the demon than Merrill, because at least Merrill knows that what she's doing is dangerous. Merethari is filled with self-righteousness and certainty instead. She's filled with pride.

How so? Marethari doesn't think that she can handle the demon. She gets possessed and then, as a Keeper is supposed to do, immediately reveals herself and has Merrill kill her. She knows that she will need to die to kill the demon. Is it pride that she thinks that she can get possessed and die instead of Merrill needing to? It doesn't seem like it takes a great deal of pride or skill to get possessed. Even corpses and trees manage it.

What is she willing to destroy in justification of her beliefs? Are you talking about her belief that the eluvian is evil? All she 'destroys' is the chance for the demon to possibly get the mirror working again. Since we don't know if the mirror wouldn't have broken again or would have been useful for anything else once the demon broke free, it's not fair to blame her for that. And maybe she should have tried to make the clan more open to her dying in Merrill's place but I don't think they EVER would have accepted that. Even if Marethari hadn't DARED to tell them the truth about Merrill's actions, her getting possessed to save Merrill from a completely unnecessary possession wouldn't have gone over well. They would have just interfered and perhaps made Merrill kill them all sooner.

Everything bad that happens to the Dalish is ultimately Merethari's fault. Yes, Merrill knows that she's taking a risk when she's willing to deal with the demon.

See, the second sentence proves why the first is ridiculous. Imagine Marethari had never done anything that Merrill disapproved of. The clan never had any idea what she was doing and she didn't interfere with the demon. What's the worst case scenario? Abomination!Merrill kills everyone. Now imagine that Merrill had never decided to consort with a demon to restore an artifact that they all already have reason not to trust. Worst case scenario? The clan continues on like it always has.

All the bad things that happened to the Dalish are MERRILL'S doing. It's possible that Marethari made them worse but it was Merrill's choices that lead them all there.

and then MERETHARI goes and does the one thing she kept warning everybody that Merrill would do

So when Merrill plans to get possessed and has people on hand its the responsible thing to do and when Marethari does it she's a selfish ****? Talk about a double-standard.

Even the "happy" ending leaves the clan without a Keeper, weakened by the deaths of their hunters and stranded in a terribly dangerous place where they never should have been forced to stay.

Oh, they are hardly stranded. Members of the clan are already talking about moving on with or without Marethari and if they'd be so doomed without her they never would have done that. They'll be fine.

Merethari is willing to throw away the lives of her whole clan just to "prove" she knows better than Merrill. I'm sure she thinks she's acting out of love, but I'm convinced that Pride demon got its hooks into Merethari a lot earlier than anybody noticed. She seems like such a sweet old lady, but that woman is toxic.

The demon CAN'T have gotten its hooks into Marethari beforehand! It only manages to influence Merrill since she contacts it and made a deal. Sure she's made mistakes but let's not go blaming it on a demon. She is acting out of love and being an irresponsible Keeper but that's neither evil nor toxic. And she certainly does do it to PROVE HERSELF RIGHT. Dear God, she doesn't WANT to be right. She might not even be right. She was just trying to protect Merrill from a threat that Merrill herself admits is very real.

[Lenimph]

There is no evidence that the demon has a true connection to the eluvian like Marethari suggested. The demon used Marethari's fears that once the eluvian was fixed it would pop out and possess Merrill, to convince her into giving in. I mean really if the demon was connected to the mirror then why is it still in that cave?

It was a foolish mistake.

[Vhalkyrie]

She only advises making him tranquil *if* he could not be turned from the demons.

Varterrals are ancient elven guardians of the Arlathan secrets. It was disturbed by Merrill's attempts to restore the eluvian, not by any potential demon possessions on Merethari's part.

Merethari left the Dalish clan for far too long because she was hoping Merrill would return. In Act 3, the clan is very agitated by this. The crafter tells his assistant to pack up their stuff. He was going to be leaving, with or without the clan.

The demon did not have a connection to the eluvian. It was trapped in the statue. It was luring Merrill with the promise it would help her restore the eluvian and teach its secrets IF she would free it from the statue. But the demon was not trapped in the eluvian.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[Kotetsimaru]

Lenimph wrote...

There is no evidence that the demon has a true connection to the eluvian like Marethari suggested. The demon used Marethari's fears that once the eluvian was fixed it would pop out and possess Merrill, to convince her into giving in. I mean really if the demon was connected to the mirror then why is it still in that cave?

It was a foolish mistake.

This.
I mean the demon was trapped in that statue for centuries and as we know from origins the eluvian was all fine and dandy until Duncan smashed the thing so why didn't the demon pop out of it when it had the chance? You could say it had to be in close proximity to the thing but Merrill has the thing in Kirkwall in her house which isn't exactly close by the mountain anyhow.

Modifié par Kotetsimaru, 28 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[Matterialize]

Lenimph wrote...

There is no evidence that the demon has a true connection to the eluvian like Marethari suggested. The demon used Marethari's fears that once the eluvian was fixed it would pop out and possess Merrill, to convince her into giving in. I mean really if the demon was connected to the mirror then why is it still in that cave?

It was a foolish mistake.

This is what I'm thinking. I mean, if it was going to just possess Merrill on top of Sundermount, why would it bother helping her repair the mirror in the first place?

In order to possess someone, that victim needs to agree to it, right? The demon can influence their mind and make itself seem very agreeable and trustworthy, but ultimately, they still have to agree. Even if they're basically under the effect of a demonic drug. Merrill mentions at least once that she's knows demons are never trustworthy, and if she's her proper self - not having her mind altered - she would never agree to possession.

So, what if the demon knew that? It probably figured that it would never be able to possess her conventionally, but it realized that if it helped her complete the mirror, it could just use that to escape the Fade instead. But then Marethari came along. Perhaps she initially intended to just destroy the demon. But the demon may have seen her love for Merrill, and convinced her that the only way to prevent it from possessing Merrill would be for Marethari to be possessed first. The demon saw a better, faster opportunity to escape than what Merrill was capable of giving it, and took it. Bam - Marethari became possessed.

Pure speculation of course, but it's a logical conclusion.

[Lenimph]

Also Morrigan does say in WH that the eluvian is a connected to a world beyond the fade. (Probably the black city)
It's more likely that the demon initially helped Merrill in an attempt to gain her trust. I find it unlikely that the demon could even use the eluvian to leave the fade.

[tmp7704]

Lenimph wrote...

There is no evidence that the demon has a true connection to the eluvian like Marethari suggested.

Wouldn't a Dalish Keeper be actually the most likely person in the world to know whether that connection is possible to make? The "lack of evidence" is rather the lack of knowledge on the subject of both Hawke and the player -- we don't know if what the demon said is true, but it doesn't mean Marethari had to be equally ignorant.

It was a foolish mistake.

Or the Keeper indeed knew what she's doing.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 mars 2011 - 07:50 .

[Addai]

Having played it twice through, I can see where the demon might be influencing Marethari as well as Merrill. She refused to move the clan because she wouldn't give up on Merrill. I don't blame her any more than Merrill, though- it was Merrill who got the ball rolling. The OP is simply assuming that the worst thing that can happen with the eluvian is that Merrill gets possessed. Obviously worse things than that can occur with a working eluvian, because we see it in the Dalish origin story.

[TheAwesomologist]

In the end, if Merethari were a better Keeper she would have taken the clan elsewhere. But then that doesn't make for a good story. She's a mother figure who loves Merrill too much basically, enough so to place her needs above that of the clan. Trying to save Merrill she doomed her entire clan (I've killed them off twice now, not realizing I could save them).
It's a sad story, thats also bugged to hell, but one of the better stories in the game.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Just the same, the demon was sealed away and had been for centurues. I don't think THAT was why so much was wrong there. It was probably the same thin veil that gave Kirkwall its rampant blood mage problem. 

The codex does say that the Veil is thin on Sundermount, because it was the site of the last stand of the Arlathan elves.

[Lenimph]

tmp7704 wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

There is no evidence that the demon has a true connection to the eluvian like Marethari suggested.

Wouldn't a Dalish Keeper be actually the most likely person in the world to know whether that connection is possible to make? 

Or the Keeper indeed knew what she's doing.

In theory she should be the person to know what she's doing but the truth of the matter is no.
 Marethari knew less about the mirror then Duncan in DA:O 

Prior to what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel, she didn't even know Eluvians exisisted.

Modifié par Lenimph, 28 mars 2011 - 08:02 .

[tmp7704]

Lenimph wrote...

In theory she should be the person to know what she's doing but the truth of the matter is no.
 Marethari knew less about the mirror then Duncan in DA:O 

Prior to what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel, she didn't even know Eluvians exisisted.

That's one good reason/incentive for her to do some research, though, and become more knowledgeable about it. And somehow i don't view her to be dumb enough to just take what demon says regarding it at face value.

[DoNotIngest]

With the Veil being so thin, it should have been easy for the Keeper to let it loose into the physical world, where it could be destroyed by Hawke & Company, without anybody dying. If she didn't trust them to be strong enough to kill it, why become possessed? So she could go back and become a ticking time bomb to her clan?

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, that is Pol being a ******. If he's running away from Merrill, running past her out of the cave is the smart move. And Merrill is only a maybe-threat versus the very real threat of the varterral...which he already knew about. Marethari can't be blamed for the fact that Pol snaps under pressure.

Considering Merrill left the clan and Audacity is trapped at the top of the mountain, what need was there for Marethari to instill fear in everyone about her, especially when Marethari makes it clear she wants Merrill to return? It makes no sense.

Sarah1281 wrote...

And it should be clear to everyone that Merrill is only a maybe-threat as if she were a certain threat then the clan would probably try to kill her and certainly wouldn't allow her to keep visiting. Pol was raised in an Alienage and so he has the Andrastian view of blood magic.

If that were the case, wouldn't be have an Adrastian view about following apostates, or about the Dalish themselves? I think Marethari's words played a bigger role than you think.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Should Marethari have kept the true fact that Merrill was a blood mage consorting with a demon secret? That seems irresponsible. Then if Merrill got possessed everyone would be taken by surprise. Marethari told people to make sure they were on their guard in case the worst happened. Notice how no one but Pol died over this? And if it weren't for the creature then Pol wouldn't have died over it either.

So instead, Marethari endangered the entire clan by becoming an abomination?

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think we know just how long the hunters were dead for and Marethari clearly didn't anticipate that the demon would turn the varterral against the Dalish. Once she knew, she stopped sending them and seeks its destruction to protect her clan. Merrill, always quick to blame everything on the Keeper, even says it wasn't the Keeper's fault and she couldn't have seen it coming.

I find it odd that you would say that she's "always quick to blame everything on the Keeper." Merrill took Marethari to task for what she said about her.

Sarah1281 wrote...

We all know that Merethari should have had them leave because it was dangerous for the Dalish to stay in any one place for too long but Marethari's blindness was Merrill and so she wouldn't leave while Merrill was in danger. This is not good Keeper behavior.

Just the same, the demon was sealed away and had been for centurues. I don't think THAT was why so much was wrong there. It was probably the same thin veil that gave Kirkwall its rampant blood mage problem. And she didn't urge the clan to hate Merrill! She gave them the facts and they made their own decisions. If anything, Merrill made the clan hate Merrill by becoming a blood mage that consorted with demons.

Or Marethari made the clan hate her by what she said specifically about her, and then expected Merrill to come back to the clan after she poisoned everyone against her, which made no sense at all.

Sarah1281 wrote...

How so? Marethari doesn't think that she can handle the demon. She gets possessed and then, as a Keeper is supposed to do, immediately reveals herself and has Merrill kill her. She knows that she will need to die to kill the demon. Is it pride that she thinks that she can get possessed and die instead of Merrill needing to? It doesn't seem like it takes a great deal of pride or skill to get possessed. Even corpses and trees manage it.

What is she willing to destroy in justification of her beliefs? Are you talking about her belief that the eluvian is evil? All she 'destroys' is the chance for the demon to possibly get the mirror working again. Since we don't know if the mirror wouldn't have broken again or would have been useful for anything else once the demon broke free, it's not fair to blame her for that. And maybe she should have tried to make the clan more open to her dying in Merrill's place but I don't think they EVER would have accepted that. Even if Marethari hadn't DARED to tell them the truth about Merrill's actions, her getting possessed to save Merrill from a completely unnecessary possession wouldn't have gone over well. They would have just interfered and perhaps made Merrill kill them all sooner.

We have no idea whether Audacity could use the Eluvian to enter this world.

Sarah1281 wrote...

See, the second sentence proves why the first is ridiculous. Imagine Marethari had never done anything that Merrill disapproved of. The clan never had any idea what she was doing and she didn't interfere with the demon. What's the worst case scenario? Abomination!Merrill kills everyone. Now imagine that Merrill had never decided to consort with a demon to restore an artifact that they all already have reason not to trust. Worst case scenario? The clan continues on like it always has.

Merrill got Hawke to accompany her to kill her in case she became an abomination. The worst case scenerio is Hawke kills her.

Sarah1281 wrote...

All the bad things that happened to the Dalish are MERRILL'S doing. It's possible that Marethari made them worse but it was Merrill's choices that lead them all there.

It wasn't Merrill's choice for Marethari to accept a demon into her, or for the Dalish to try to murder her.

[Dan-mac RI]

The pride demon was probably hedging its bets, they're supposed to be pretty clever. If Marethari tries to save Merrill, I win. If Merrill is stupid enough to fall for the wrong offer, I win.

Merrill seems fairly successful in getting the demon to help without really giving anything in return which would make me think that she's not the target, merely a tool to get to Marethari. This is something neither of them saw. Now you can blame Marethari because she's the one who's supposed to know better but Merrill is culpable in the same way that a drug dealer is responsible for an overdose; she made it possible, but did not directly cause the death.

[Vhalkyrie]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

The pride demon was probably hedging its bets, they're supposed to be pretty clever. If Marethari tries to save Merrill, I win. If Merrill is stupid enough to fall for the wrong offer, I win.

*Cheers!* Exactly. The odds are stacked for the demon wins either way.

Merrill got Hawke to accompany her to kill her in case she became an abomination. The worst case scenerio is Hawke kills her.

I find this particular argument from Merrill supporters to be very ironic. Basically, Merrill is asking Hawke to fill a Templar role. As in, kill a weak willed possessed mage if a harrowing goes wrong.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[Sarah1281]

I find it odd that you would say that she's "always quick to blame everything on the Keeper." Merrill took Marethari to task for what she said about her.

Why is it odd to say that Merrill blames things on the Keeper a lot? She does. It doesn't matter if it's deserved, she still does. And what I was talking about was when Hawke accuses of Marethari of sending the hunters to their death, Merrill defends her saying it was usually safe.

Merrill got Hawke to accompany her to kill her in case she became an abomination. The worst case scenerio is Hawke kills her.

Uh, no. The worst-case scenario is the abomination killing Hawke & co. and then going after the Dalish and then maybe the people in Kirkwall. Not everyone is aware that Hawke is the protagonist and thus has plot armor.

[tmp7704]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

Merrill seems fairly successful in getting the demon to help without really giving anything in return which would make me think that she's not the target, merely a tool to get to Marethari.

We don't exactly know that. For example, the demon makes Merrill perform blood magic ritual on the mirror claiming it is to remove the taint from it. While that could just as well be part of what the demon wanted.

[Dan-mac RI]

tmp7704 wrote...

Dan-mac RI wrote...

Merrill seems fairly successful in getting the demon to help without really giving anything in return which would make me think that she's not the target, merely a tool to get to Marethari.

We don't exactly know that. For example, the demon makes Merrill perform blood magic ritual on the mirror claiming it is to remove the taint from it. While that could just as well be part of what the demon wanted.

I'm not sure. I think in one of the dialogues someone pressures her about the blood magic and she replies with: "If I had a pile of lyrium, I could have used that, but I didn't, so I used blood magic." This leads me to believe that she knew the ritual and would have needed help with it. Since Marethari obviously wasn't going to help, she needed more power so she took it from her own blood(hopefully her own. Can you use animals?)

[Vhalkyrie]

Dan-mac RI wrote...
I'm not sure. I think in one of the dialogues someone pressures her about the blood magic and she replies with: "If I had a pile of lyrium, I could have used that, but I didn't, so I used blood magic." This leads me to believe that she knew the ritual and would have needed help with it. Since Marethari obviously wasn't going to help, she needed more power so she took it from her own blood(hopefully her own. Can you use animals?)

I don't think you can use animals, only elves and humans.  It's just speculation based on a conversation with Anders, though.  My Hawke made a joke with him about needing a nice strong mage like him to rescue virgins and kittens.  His response was, "From what I know about the Tevinters, maybe the virgins.  But I've never heard of any horrific kitten rituals."  It seemed to imply that only elf or human blood was suitable for blood magic, as the Tevinters did drain their slaves for blood.  Dwarven blood can't be used for blood magic, presumably due to their anti magic nature.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 28 mars 2011 - 10:17 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

tmp7704 wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

There is no evidence that the demon has a true connection to the eluvian like Marethari suggested.

Wouldn't a Dalish Keeper be actually the most likely person in the world to know whether that connection is possible to make? The "lack of evidence" is rather the lack of knowledge on the subject of both Hawke and the player -- we don't know if what the demon said is true, but it doesn't mean Marethari had to be equally ignorant.

It was a foolish mistake.

Or the Keeper indeed knew what she's doing.

Marethari doesn't know anything about the eluvian, and she doesn't WANT to know anything about it. Merrill's the one that's been studying it, and Merrill's the one with a "unique knowledge of Keeper lore." Unique means it is exclusive to her.