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Keeper Merethari: A Traitor to her Clan?


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#51
Vhalkyrie

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Torax wrote...

I played Origins. Should also point out that if said Warden commits the Ultimate Sacrifice, Merathari shows up at the Funeral. What then for time for line. Just saying, plot and holes.


The Fifth Blight lasted about 6 months.  I suppose she still had 6 months to make her appointment in Sundermount.

I do not think it was coincidence that the clan ends up on Sundermount at Flemeth's behest, Hawke carries Flemeth to Sundermount, Merrill has the eluvian in tow, Sundermount happens to be the site of the Arlathan's last stand, and there happens to be an unusually powerful pride demon able to tempt both Merrill and Merethari to split them apart.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 05:19 .


#52
tmp7704

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Since we have no information about what happened the first time, it's impossible to know if there was any risk involved.

We know Merrill has dealt with a demon. The risk is inherent part of such a deal.

#53
LobselVith8

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We know she conversed with Audacity to learn how to cleanse the shard of the Eluvian so she could extrapolate it and create a new one, tmp7704, but we have no idea what the conversation pertained to. We could make a million assumptions, but unless we have one of the devs explicitly tells us one way or the other, we have no idea whether our assessment of the conversation is accurate or not.

#54
tmp7704

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My point is very basic, though -- when Merrill made her decision to talk to the demon, she had to make it under assumption that as part of this conversation the demon would try to one way or another convince her into possession. Because that's what the demons normally do.

Whether that actually happened or not in actual conversation is irrelevant; we don't need to know the details of the talk in order to conclude that yes, Merrill was willing to accept risk of demonic possession when she made her decision to speak with Audacity.

To use an analogy, when you decide to stand in the middle of busy street you do it with knowledge there's inherent risk of getting hit by a car. And with your action you accept this risk; otherwise you would've stayed on the sidewalk.

#55
Killjoy Cutter

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Siduri wrote...

So, on my first playthrough, I liked keeper Merethari a lot. I mean, what's not to like? She's dignified, respectful, and seems very wise.

On my second playthrough, my opinion did a one-eighty. That woman is EEEEEVIL.

I mean, firstly, she's wrong about everything. She's wrong about Feynriel needing to be made Tranquil, and if you listen to her (as I did on my first playthrough) you will end up committing a needless atrocity against a gifted young man. Furthermore, it's Keeper Merethari's poisonous words that leads Pol to run away from Merrill into the jaws of the varterral. Like Merrill says--she's never done anything to hurt the clan, and it doesn't make sense for them to fear her so much. Of course later you find that Pol fears Merrill so much because Merethari told him to.

And Keeper Merethari sent those hunters to their deaths in the first place. Why has the varterral turned against the Dalish? Probably because it senses the demon's influence--the demon who is working through Merethari. Like Merrill says over and over, "Something is terribly wrong here." But Merrill isn't willing to see where the wrongness truly lies. If Merethari were doing her duty to the clan, she'd have led them away from Sundermount months ago, and they'd be safe. Instead she keeps them close to the demon's influence, sending them into the jaws of monsters, and filling them with hatred against Merrill.

The demon is a pride spirit. It's easy to see how Merrill's pride makes her vulnerable. But Merethari is also inflexible in her pride, so certain that she and only she knows what's best for the clan, that she's ultimately willing to destroy everything in justification of her beliefs. Merethari is actually better prey for the demon than Merrill, because at least Merrill knows that what she's doing is dangerous. Merethari is filled with self-righteousness and certainty instead. She's filled with pride.

Everything bad that happens to the Dalish is ultimately Merethari's fault. Yes, Merrill knows that she's taking a risk when she's willing to deal with the demon. That's why she brings Hawke along, to kill her if she fails. She's actually doing the responsible thing to protect others from the repercussions of her actions. If Merrill had her way, the Eluvian would be restored--and then a Pride demon would come through. And then Hawke would kill it. But Merrill and her clan would have the Eluvian and its power to help them restore their ancient heritage. Problem solved! Happy ending!

Instead, because Merethari has instilled such a terrible fear of Merrill into her clan--and then MERETHARI goes and does the one thing she kept warning everybody that Merrill would do--the most likely outcome (two out of three dialog choices) is the destruction of her entire clan. Even the "happy" ending leaves the clan without a Keeper, weakened by the deaths of their hunters and stranded in a terribly dangerous place where they never should have been forced to stay.

Merethari is willing to throw away the lives of her whole clan just to "prove" she knows better than Merrill. I'm sure she thinks she's acting out of love, but I'm convinced that Pride demon got its hooks into Merethari a lot earlier than anybody noticed. She seems like such a sweet old lady, but that woman is toxic.



Exactly so. 

But observe, as there are plenty of people who will attempt to convince you that this is still All Merrills Fault.  Many of them will say Because She's A Blood Mage.

#56
LobselVith8

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tmp7704 wrote...

My point is very basic, though -- when Merrill made her decision to talk to the demon, she had to make it under assumption that as part of this conversation the demon would try to one way or another convince her into possession. Because that's what the demons normally do.

Whether that actually happened or not in actual conversation is irrelevant; we don't need to know the details of the talk in order to conclude that yes, Merrill was willing to accept risk of demonic possession when she made her decision to speak with Audacity.

To use an analogy, when you decide to stand in the middle of busy street you do it with knowledge there's inherent risk of getting hit by a car. And with your action you accept this risk; otherwise you would've stayed on the sidewalk.


The fundamental difference is that the demon isn't in the Fade, it's in the physical world, and our knowledge about the risks that might be involved in conversing with a demon who is trapped in a statute in the physical world is: zero.

#57
Addai

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LobselVith8 wrote...
The fundamental difference is that the demon isn't in the Fade, it's in the physical world, and our knowledge about the risks that might be involved in conversing with a demon who is trapped in a statute in the physical world is: zero.

Are you trying to argue that there aren't inherent risks in dealing with demons?  That's not something even Merrill would try to argue, I think.  She says it's risky but she "knows what she's doing."

#58
tmp7704

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LobselVith8 wrote...

The fundamental difference is that the demon isn't in the Fade, it's in the physical world, and our knowledge about the risks that might be involved in conversing with a demon who is trapped in a statute in the physical world is: zero.

Marethari's example shows demon bound to the statue in physical world can still possess a person. Either Merrill was aware of such possibility which makes my point stand, or --if she wasn't and her knowledge of what the demon could do was as you put it, zero-- then she's made a purely ignorant call. Which imo is hardly any better.

#59
LobselVith8

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Addai67 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The fundamental difference is that the demon isn't in the Fade, it's in the physical world, and our knowledge about the risks that might be involved in conversing with a demon who is trapped in a statute in the physical world is: zero.


Are you trying to argue that there aren't inherent risks in dealing with demons?  That's not something even Merrill would try to argue, I think.  She says it's risky but she "knows what she's doing."


You mean am I trying to argue that there are no risks involved by addressing our lack of knowledge about the situation? No, Addai67, I'm stating that we have no knowledge. No knowledge = no facts. We can make some assumptions, but that's all they would be.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The fundamental difference is that the demon isn't in the Fade, it's in the physical world, and our knowledge about the risks that might be involved in conversing with a demon who is trapped in a statute in the physical world is: zero.


Marethari's example shows demon bound to the statue in physical world can still possess a person. Either Merrill was aware of such possibility which makes my point stand, or --if she wasn't and her knowledge of what the demon could do was as you put it, zero-- then she's made a purely ignorant call. Which imo is hardly any better.


Except the abomination Marethari's claim wasn't that Merrill risked her life by conversing with the demon Audacity, it was that she risked letting the demon loose by completing the Eluvian. Again, we can assume that Marethari was able to take the demon into her, but I don't see how you can claim it's an "ignorant call" when we're all ignorant of the facts involved.

#60
tmp7704

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the abomination Marethari's claim wasn't that Merrill risked her life by conversing with the demon Audacity, it was that she risked letting the demon loose by completing the Eluvian.

What it says is irrelevant. The very existence of Marethari abomination shows that it was possible for the demon bound to statue in our physical world to still pose danger of possession to person who would choose to converse with it. Merrill did converse with this demon, thus exposing herself to the same risk.

#61
Killjoy Cutter

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tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the abomination Marethari's claim wasn't that Merrill risked her life by conversing with the demon Audacity, it was that she risked letting the demon loose by completing the Eluvian.

What it says is irrelevant. The very existence of Marethari abomination shows that it was possible for the demon bound to statue in our physical world to still pose danger of possession to person who would choose to converse with it. Merrill did converse with this demon, thus exposing herself to the same risk.


Merethari claims to have voluntarily imprisoned the demon within her, which, if true, would be an entirely different thing than the demon being able to seize her. 

#62
tmp7704

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Merethari claims to have voluntarily imprisoned the demon within her, which, if true, would be an entirely different thing than the demon being able to seize her. 

Point still being the demon can move from the statue to the willing host, seizing them afterwards.

#63
Torax

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Possible premise. Banishing the Demon back to the Fade would only make it stronger. Releasing it to the Fade also would just give it the freedom it wants and allow it to still seek Merrill and others. Lastly by instead having said demons life now bound to her own? It's forever destroyed. No freedom. Nothing. Gone for good. Whose to say the average summoned Rage Demon is actually killed if it's summoned and not possessing a body? It could just be getting banished back to the fade. Corpse just left on the floor for the loots.

#64
LobselVith8

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But if magic bound the demon Audacity to the idol, then it's possible Marethari knew how to place the demon into her as a mage, tmp7704. It's speculation, of course, because we lack any knowledge about what transpired between Marethari and Audacity, and how events unfolded when the Keeper became an abomination. Maybe one of the writers can clarify what happened between Merrill and Audacity, and what discussion followed when she learned blood magic.

#65
tmp7704

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LobselVith8 wrote...

But if magic bound the demon Audacity to the idol, then it's possible Marethari knew how to place the demon into her as a mage, tmp7704. It's speculation, of course, because we lack any knowledge about what transpired between Marethari and Audacity, and how events unfolded when the Keeper became an abomination.

Yes, that's definitely a possibility. But let's not forget Merrill was also a mage and a student of Marethari. That isn't to say she'd for sure be capable of performing the same thing herself, just that overall there's much higher probability there actually was certain risk involved in dealing with the demon, than there wasn't any.

#66
Rando_F

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I totally agree. I really don't understand why not Marethari just let Merrill go and move to another place which she consider "safe". Things would be much better without she get involved in all of this.