206 réponses à ce sujet

[Targonis1]

The big problem that I saw was that the scope of events was very very contained. DA: O had you adventuring across an entire country, and in DA 2, we are in the same places for the entire game, and it made the game feel very limited in scope.

This is why the re-use of areas and maps bothers so many people, because the game already feels CONFINED compared to the original game. Would it have really taken so much extra time to come up with more locations and maps for the stories that are in the game and scripted? Even after the fact, patches could FIX this problem by just making new maps for the existing quests, or having multiple location hubs. Ok, it's the Free Marches, and you would expect that there would be more mention about other cities throughout the game, even if they were not places to go.

As far as the gameplay changes, in some ways they are good, but the game DOES make you feel like you are being lead around by the nose CONTINUALLY, with no way to really change things. Give us some way to affect the outcome!

[gotthammer]

erynnar wrote...

Actually, I think this fourmite hit it on the head...warning there are spoilers!

http://social.biowar...09086/1#6810092

Thanks for pointing that out. It was a nice read, and I agree with all points raised. 

[AkiKishi]

simfamSP wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Because they tried to create a story based around factions and failed.

They didn't fail. They just didn't succeed as much as FO:NV.

Well I don't know how your game went, but I supported the Mages and ended up killing them anyway. A faction based game where the faction you choose makes no difference, that's a fail in my book.

[Phenerios]

It seems to me both sides of this are missing the actually story here. Like Bioware said the story is about Hawke. If you listen the Seeker asks Varric at the start to tell her the story of Hawke, so she can know the truth of what happened. So, yes you get railroaded to an outcome, but your choices decide how, and why those events came about. The problem in my opinion most people are having is they aren't seeing the same world changing consequences you get in DA:O or ME1&2. Listen to the story, listen to what your companions say to each other when you are just running around (it actually helps you get to know them better), and read your journal/codex entries (they fill you in on a lot.)

[Artoz96]

Phenerios wrote...

It seems to me both sides of this are missing the actually story here. Like Bioware said the story is about Hawke. If you listen the Seeker asks Varric at the start to tell her the story of Hawke, so she can know the truth of what happened. So, yes you get railroaded to an outcome, but your choices decide how, and why those events came about. The problem in my opinion most people are having is they aren't seeing the same world changing consequences you get in DA:O or ME1&2. Listen to the story, listen to what your companions say to each other when you are just running around (it actually helps you get to know them better), and read your journal/codex entries (they fill you in on a lot.)

Yes, you r right. I thing BW should devide DA in two parts.The First part is quests, a lot of not related quests, a lot of battles, various items... The second is a book where we can read what the fu... is all this quests about. Ahh by the way every next part of the book opens only after you comple few hundred of boring quests. Yep... this is future, this is evolution of rpg!

[Itkovian]

Simple: the story is about Hawke's rise from refugee, to nobility, to champion, to his role at the center of events that changed Thedas.

It's not about how Hawke defeated a great evil, or uncovered the political machinations of a foul conspiracy. That is not the point of the story. The central plot line is Hawke's life, and how he came to be who he is today.

Is it unconventional? Yes, it is indeed, but that does not make it wrong. There's plenty of works out there that focus around a character's life, many of which are masterpieces.

For examples in fantasy, I suggest reading some Guy Gavriel Kay. The Sarantine Mosaic is a prime example. The same can be said of many movies, Barry Lyndon for example.

Those are story whose focus is the main character and his life. There's no Great Menace, and the narrative is quite different from what you normally see in fiction, but that does not a poor story make.

DA2 is the story of Hawke, how he came to be who he is as of the time of Varric's telling. Complaining that there's no central plot line, or that the story lacks focus, misses the point entirely. Hawke's life is the plot line, and is the focus of the story.

Moreover, I give kudos to Bioware for pushing the boundaries of RPG storytelling and doing something of artistic merit. That's worth a lot of points in my book.

That said, I predict that just as how DA2 is the story of how Hawke got to the point he is as of Varric's telling, DA3 will be about how Hawke goes about fixing the crisis now engulfing Thedas. That probably will be a more conventional story, as Hawke goes about saving the world from itself.

Itkovian

Modifié par Itkovian, 29 mars 2011 - 01:39 .

[Wuxia]

 I like the idea of the story in DA2 but think it was very poorly implemented - I 'get' the story but it doesn't work in the medium. It just feels like your being forced into unrelated sidequests for no reason all the time. As others have said the game needs an overarching plot to pull it together - this doesn't mean 'kill the big bad'.

 Maybe it's a bad idea to compare a game to a book but I will anyway. In 'A Game of Thrones' (quoted as an influence on DA) there are no 'bad guys' yet it has a plot running through it; the conflict between houses and the mystery of the death of the King's Hand. Ned is alot like Hawke - he goes to a city and things happen. However, Ned's purpose is made clear and the conflicts are personified.

 Also, I don't see where people saying that they knew the plot of DAO in a minute are coming from. It's true that the plot of DAO was mediocre but I didn't know that the 'secret companion' would become the Hero of Ferelden as I was becoming the traditional 'orphan on a quest' - I thought I would be the hero and it didn't happen.

[Zmajc]

Itkovian wrote...

Simple: the story is about Hawke's rise from refugee, to nobility, to champion, to his role at the center of events that changed Thedas.

It's not about how Hawke defeated a great evil, or uncovered the political machinations of a foul conspiracy. That is not the point of the story. The central plot line is Hawke's life, and how he came to be who he is today.

Is it unconventional? Yes, it is indeed, but that does not make it wrong. There's plenty of works out there that focus around a character's life, many of which are masterpieces.

For examples in fantasy, I suggest reading some Guy Gavriel Kay. The Sarantine Mosaic is a prime example. The same can be said of many movies, Barry Lyndon for example.

Those are story whose focus is the main character and his life. There's no Great Menace, and the narrative is quite different from what you normally see in fiction, but that does not a poor story make.

DA2 is the story of Hawke, how he came to be who he is as of the time of Varric's telling. Complaining that there's no central plot line, or that the story lacks focus, misses the point entirely. Hawke's life is the plot line, and is the focus of the story.

Moreover, I give kudos to Bioware for pushing the boundaries of RPG storytelling and doing something of artistic merit. That's worth a lot of points in my book.

That said, I predict that just as how DA2 is the story of how Hawke got to the point he is as of Varric's telling, DA3 will be about how Hawke goes about fixing the crisis now engulfing Thedas. That probably will be a more conventional story, as Hawke goes about saving the world from itself.

Itkovian

Or said plainly ... one big fail.

[Caralampio]

In DAO one had this sense of great quest hovering above you even when you were doing some sidequest. And sidequests were quite clear in their motives and objectives. In DA2, your just a dude living in a city who helps a lot of people in their problems that the authorities can't resolve. You even are famous as a problem solver and get sought out for it. Robin Hood, Batman or Spiderman. Sometimes it also feels like you're an overworked private eye solving endless cases.

I think that was the idea, and it wasn't bad on paper, but the problem is that it turned out boring. You get mired in a morass of quests. You are on your way to resolve something when a woman speaks to you on the street. She asks you to do something, and it seems more urgent that what you were currently doing (which was... I don't remember. I'll know when I get there). So you drop the other mission and go to do this one, which is equally lame. But on the way you find some guys that have red circles under them, so they got to be enemies. When you finish them, you get a quest complete! Oh was that a mission? Check: Yeah, I was supposed to kill them, go back to Darktown at night for your reward. So you drop the woman's mission and go to Darktown at night. Except that on the way there you see the letter icon flashing at your house. Oh, new mail. Better go check it. In the mail you find a mission that looks more interesting than going to Darktown at night. So you head out to the Lost Coast...

[Deylar]

LanatirDragon wrote...
Funny how people pretend that this whole 'nobody becomes somebody' is 'new' and 'refreshing'. I could name quite a few games off the top of my hat where this is the main focus, and all of them did it a LOT better then DA2. I know, most of you kids are too old to remember, but play Ultima IV for a while. And this game is from the 80's. Talk about fresh and new idea, huh.

Or a newer gamer would be Fable 2.

And trust me its story and writing and even the world was a lot better than DA2.

[Rockpopple]

BTW, can anyone explain to me why the Warden had to slay the Archdemon?

Why'd he have to do it?

Why did he have 2 choices: die killing the Archdemon, or sleep (or get someone else to sleep) with some crazy Apostate in order to have the Archdemon's God-baby so he wouldn't die killing it?

Morrigan could ditch. Why couldn't the Warden? Where was that choice?

Great story my ass: Kill the Archdemon! Uh... why- JUST DO IT! GET OFF MY PHONE!

Prats like you are starting to making me see and name the flaws in a game I loved so very very much. Appreciate that.

[Deylar]

Rockpopple wrote...
Why'd he have to do it?

To end the blight.

[Phenerios]

Artoz96 wrote...
Yes, you r right. I thing BW should devide DA in two parts.The First part is quests, a lot of not related quests, a lot of battles, various items... The second is a book where we can read what the fu... is all this quests about. Ahh by the way every next part of the book opens only after you comple few hundred of boring quests. Yep... this is future, this is evolution of rpg!

    Do you bash everyone that doesn't agree with you? I never said that it was a perfect system, but that it was there if you looked. Now, if you don't like the side quests then don't complete them. Maybe your version of Hawke doesn't like to help people out, or doesn't like money, or fame. Those are choices you can make, that is why they are "side quest". Everyone complain that the side quests don't have anything tying them to the story is wrong. Hawke ties them to the story in that he decided it was worth his time, or the reward offered to complete them. Did he have to? No, but he did. Why did he decide to do this quest, but not that one? Those are only things that you can answer and Bioware gives you the freedom to choose what motivates Hawke to do certain quests, and not to do others. So, start lookign at yourselves for the answers. I for one like the freedom here, I am a big RPGer, and do a lot of pencil and paper rpgs. I find it refreshing to find that I can decide the motives of my Character in a console RPG for a change.

[Bathead]

By attempting to invalidate his opinion by calling him a fanboy, you just invalidated your own.Pitiful.

[Rockpopple]

Deylar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
Why'd he have to do it?

To end the blight.

Again, why did he have to do it?

"To end the blight"? Are you joking? Why can the Warden be a bastard that lets an entire town get mauled and burned to the ground, but will sacrifice his life to kill some dragon? What stopped him from taking off? N-O-T-H-I-N-G.  Maybe if he was in a group of Grey Wardens - and we know they operate in teams, probably for unit cohesion - then yes, maybe he'd let himself be drawn into a battle like that, but by himself, essentially alone?

Face it - the Warden's ONLY motivation in that game was "Cuz he was the hero" How's that great story-telling?

Again, I hate being forced to bring out the glaring faults in a game I truly and still love.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 29 mars 2011 - 02:16 .

[AkiKishi]

Rockpopple wrote...
Again, why did he have to do it?

"To end the blight"? Are you joking? Why can the Warden be a bastard that lets an entire town get mauled and burned to the ground, but will sacrifice his life to kill some dragon? What stopped him from taking off? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. 

He only did it cuz he was the hero so he has to do it. How's that great story-telling?

Because it's what Grey Wardens do. How they do it, not really an issue. Just like Shepard, Shepard can be a total tool but he still saves the day because it's what Spectres do.

Hawke has no such connection to plot. The only thing stopping Hawke leaving is the game gives him nowhere else to go.

[Deylar]

Rockpopple wrote...
Face it - the Warden's ONLY motivation in that game was "Cuz he was the hero" How's that great story-telling?

Warden is like being enlisted in a job. A Warden is a job.

Much like a police man or a firefighter is a job. 

Its like asking, "why did the fireman have to go into the burning building?"

The Warden and being a Warden is a job. Let's pretend the Warden is a firefighter. And the world he is saving is on fire. Its a burning building.

Would he be a very good firefighter if he just let the building burn?

[Phenerios]

Deylar wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
Face it - the Warden's ONLY motivation in that game was "Cuz he was the hero" How's that great story-telling?

Warden is like being enlisted in a job. A Warden is a job.

Much like a police man or a firefighter is a job. 

Its like asking, "why did the fireman have to go into the burning building?"

The Warden and being a Warden is a job. Let's pretend the Warden is a firefighter. And the world he is saving is on fire. Its a burning building.

Would he be a very good firefighter if he just let the building burn?

   I think Rockpopple's point is a firefighter chooses to be a firefighter and accpets the risk as part of the job, but some people's Wardens were press-ganged into the Wardens. I have one such play through were I played a female city-elf, and I murdered everyone of the raping bastards. Now, I come back to the Alienage just to find out I am being forced to go with Duncan to be a Grey Warden. Why can't I decide to just leave after Flemeth saves me and let Allistair handle the blight as I flee to the dalish, or some place else?

[ZombiePowered]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...
Again, why did he have to do it?

"To end the blight"? Are you joking? Why can the Warden be a bastard that lets an entire town get mauled and burned to the ground, but will sacrifice his life to kill some dragon? What stopped him from taking off? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. 

He only did it cuz he was the hero so he has to do it. How's that great story-telling?

Because it's what Grey Wardens do. How they do it, not really an issue. Just like Shepard, Shepard can be a total tool but he still saves the day because it's what Spectres do.

Hawke has no such connection to plot. The only thing stopping Hawke leaving is the game gives him nowhere else to go.

Hawke had plenty of motivation and connection to the plot. He goes on the expedition to get out of lowtown. For god's sake he's living is a pissed-stained crime-ridden slum, when he should've waltzed into a fine hightown estate. That is a far more selfish and pressing concern than stopping the blight was for the warden.

In the second act he's called upon to calm things down and try to prevent a bloodbath. Motivation there is that Kirkwall is his home. All of his friends live there (and don't you dare try to say "but Ferelden is his home", because Lothering is gone, destroyed, and all of his friends from Lothering are scattered to the winds). He has a life in Kirkwall, of course he would try to defend it. Again, selfish reasons. No one wants their house burned down. Again there is a selfish motivation that the Warden never had.

In the third act he is the Champion. Again he tries to defend his home from another conflict, and on top of that he now has a duty. If motitvation for killing the Archdemon can be justified because the Warden is a Warden, then Hawke's involvement in these issues can be motivated by being the Champion. On top of this there is the ever present selfish concern for protecting one's home, friends, and family.

Perhaps you didn't feel these motivations, but that is a very different issue than they not existing. Hawke as a character has just as much, if not more, motivation as the Warden did. Just because you didn't feel this was conveyed to you doesn't mean the story was bad or not there, it means it was not made apparent enough for you to see. Those are very different issues with very different solutions.

[Rockpopple]

Warden is his occupation. He's not compelled by his occupation to put his life on the line. Remember how he became a Warden? He either became a Warden to:

- Escape being slaughtered by a rival noble family
- To cure a plague
- To avoid being hung by human bigots
- To avoid being potentially made Tranquil.
- To avoid being eaten by Darkspawn in the Deep Roads

Unlike Ser Jory he didn't join the Warden because he wanted to defend anyone from anything. He joined the Wardens to save his own ass.

How does he go from being that guy, to a guy who's either willing to sacrifice himself or bring some demon apostate god-baby into the world so he can kill a dragon? Wouldn't a guy like that naturally want to RUN AWAY?

I'm not saying that a guy with Origins like that CAN'T become a hero. But in DA:O, you didn't SEE him become the hero. After Ostagar, it's like a light-switch happened, and he suddenly became this selfless uber-hero (even if he maybe let Redcliffe burn to the ground or put some psycho dwarf on Orzamarr's throne or killed a bunch of Dalish).

There's no connection. You guys try to compare him to firefighters, but the more apt comparison is if he was some criminal forcefully recruited into the army who then risks his life going into a nuclear plant in meltdown because it would save thousands of people. There's a disconnect between these two, unless you see how a person like a criminal turns into a selfless hero.

And in Dragon Age: Origins, you don't see that connection. There's a switch and we have to deal with it.

Again, I don't like bringing out these flaws. I love DA:O and I always will. But that's the truth of the matter. The Warden fought the Blight because "he was the hero", and for no other reason.

[Deylar]

Phenerios wrote...
   I think Rockpopple's point is a firefighter chooses to be a firefighter and accpets the risk as part of the job, but some people's Wardens were press-ganged into the Wardens. I have one such play through were I played a female city-elf, and I murdered everyone of the raping bastards. Now, I come back to the Alienage just to find out I am being forced to go with Duncan to be a Grey Warden. Why can't I decide to just leave after Flemeth saves me and let Allistair handle the blight as I flee to the dalish, or some place else?

I think I remember doing an alienage elf, where the Dalish said something like, "You aren't one of the Dalish, but one of our kin yes," or something along those lines. So I have a funny feeling the Dalish wouldn't accept you.

And the reason you were placed into the Wardens was to evade authority. Surely after killing those very important raping bastards, your character would be wanted, even put under arrest.

If your placed in a position of power or placed in a position of protection, wouldn't you opt for that option?

[minor DA2 spoiler here] Its like those elves who joined the Qun to protect themselves from being taking by Avelin and her guards.[end spoiler]

Would you run off to be with the Dalish, knowing full well your past may be putting them in danger?

Or the wardens? Where you're untouchable and no one can make an arrest for you?

[Deylar]

Rockpopple wrote...
Again, I don't like bringing out these flaws. I love DA:O and I always will. But that's the truth of the matter. The Warden fought the Blight because "he was the hero", and for no other reason.

Where as I disagree. Yes.

But really, couldn't saving the world also be for saving his ass?

What would be the benefit of allowing the blight and the arch demon live?

Your own death?

And you didn't have to be the selfless hero. You could have been a prickish hero too. And of course you could have not had the demon god baby.

However, that isn't how Bioware set it up.

[Phenerios]

Deylar wrote...
I think I remember doing an alienage elf, where the Dalish said something like, "You aren't one of the Dalish, but one of our kin yes," or something along those lines. So I have a funny feeling the Dalish wouldn't accept you.

And the reason you were placed into the Wardens was to evade authority. Surely after killing those very important raping bastards, your character would be wanted, even put under arrest.

If your placed in a position of power or placed in a position of protection, wouldn't you opt for that option?

[minor DA2 spoiler here] Its like those elves who joined the Qun to protect themselves from being taking by Avelin and her guards.[end spoiler]

Would you run off to be with the Dalish, knowing full well your past may be putting them in danger?

Or the wardens? Where you're untouchable and no one can make an arrest for you?

  So my choices are make a suicide run on the Archdemon knowing I will die, trust an apostate mage to perform a ritual I know nothing about, or disappear durning the battle where everyone will assume I was mutilated by the darkspawn. Then there is the fact that right after Flemeth saves me I could just walk away leaving Alistair to handle everything, because everyone assumes I'm dead already. In any console RPG you have to accpet there are choices you won't be allowed to make, because it will kill the story too quickly.

[AkiKishi]

ZombiePowered wrote...
Hawke had plenty of motivation and connection to the plot. He goes on the expedition to get out of lowtown. For god's sake he's living is a pissed-stained crime-ridden slum, when he should've waltzed into a fine hightown estate. That is a far more selfish and pressing concern than stopping the blight was for the warden.

In the second act he's called upon to calm things down and try to prevent a bloodbath. Motivation there is that Kirkwall is his home. All of his friends live there (and don't you dare try to say "but Ferelden is his home", because Lothering is gone, destroyed, and all of his friends from Lothering are scattered to the winds). He has a life in Kirkwall, of course he would try to defend it. Again, selfish reasons. No one wants their house burned down. Again there is a selfish motivation that the Warden never had.

In the third act he is the Champion. Again he tries to defend his home from another conflict, and on top of that he now has a duty. If motitvation for killing the Archdemon can be justified because the Warden is a Warden, then Hawke's involvement in these issues can be motivated by being the Champion. On top of this there is the ever present selfish concern for protecting one's home, friends, and family.

Perhaps you didn't feel these motivations, but that is a very different issue than they not existing. Hawke as a character has just as much, if not more, motivation as the Warden did. Just because you didn't feel this was conveyed to you doesn't mean the story was bad or not there, it means it was not made apparent enough for you to see. Those are very different issues with very different solutions.

Upto act 1 yes he has motivation. But once he has money and status why is he still a delivery boy? More to the point why the hell would you stay in Kirkwall the Templar captital when you have money to go anywhere else.

You mean after doing nothing for 3 years while things get to that point ? 

Again after 3 years of doing nothing beforehand.


If Hawke is so concerened about family why is (spoiler) allowed to be taken without a fight ? 

Modifié par BobSmith101, 29 mars 2011 - 02:58 .