206 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

Yes, Origins had victim characters - but I didn't feel that "The Warden" was one of them. I DID feel that "Hawke" was simply a bystander in a story that was rumored to be "about" him. The Warden felt like a man/woman who had the personal strength to stand by his companions - get to know them - work through things with them. Due to the "Origins" part - he/she - even had their own problems, but the Warden was never a spectator. I don't need to be a god at the end of the game - but I felt that I could have been just a citizen on the streets of Kirkwall and it wouldn't have mattered at all to the story.

If this game really wanted a more "grassroots" feel instead of "big-sweeping epic" - then being part of the little things is exactly what should have happened. I could talk with Leliana about her "tales" - I could talk to Zevran about his assassinations - all the characters had HUGE dialogue trees that I could explore. In this game - one which was "supposed" to be more down to earth - I have a few very forced "flavor" moments.

I felt it horrible that I was like - "Oh, 3 years have passed - time to get to know a little more about my friends."

There were several quests in act 2 that were excellent for relations building. I think there were a lot of wasted quest that should have been about the companions - or the family.

I could have played this ENTIRE game just doing quests with my friends - having a game where Bioware created extremely elaborate social structures for the companions (even providing more potentially). Then - perhaps even developing a deeper family through a LI - kids - etc.

People "claim" they don't want "boring epics" - but I could have had a truly domestic campaign that perhaps even culminated in the "Kirkwall Killer" case giving me the possibility through a vast array of events through the 3 acts that decide whether or not I could save my mother at the end.

THAT would have been an epic - down to earth story.

I feel that Dragon Age 2 tried to have its hands in every pie - and ended up failing in ALL of them.

[AkiKishi]

Speaking of pies. Atelier Rorona, not only no big bad end boss but not even a conflict.

Totally personal story about a poor girl out of her depth who made her own future with her own hands. In the case of the "pie" ending, in a very literal sense.

20+ endings, 6 "romances" not bad for a JRPG

Modifié par BobSmith101, 29 mars 2011 - 10:44 .

[Medhia Nox]

@BobSmith101 - That sounds like a good game - I admit, I have a personal failing. I do not like Japanese art styles for video games... I won't claim it's rational, and I'm well aware I could likely be missing out on some amazing stories.

[AkiKishi]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BobSmith101 - That sounds like a good game - I admit, I have a personal failing. I do not like Japanese art styles for video games... I won't claim it's rational, and I'm well aware I could likely be missing out on some amazing stories.

You definately won't like it then.

The Japanese tend to be far more adventurous with games than western developers. Hyper Dimensional Neptunia for example has you playing as the personification of games consoles (shinto thing were everthing has it's own god).

[Medhia Nox]

And it is probably excellent - I really need to get over this silly bias... hmm.

Biggest problem is that they don't make a lot of them for PC that I'm aware of - and I'm pretty exclusively a PC gamer.

[Alamar2078]

I liked the idea of a character driven, faction driven story. I think the execution could have been better but overall the concept is sound IMHO.

[Rockpopple]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Rockpopple - it really "wrenched the old gut"? Seriously?

You know it's just force fed to you for shock value right? It's not like you had anything to do with it?

((I can talk this way because I basically just summed up the whole game.))

Whatever, dude. I'm not gonna bother, it's not gonna change your mind and you won't change mine. It's obvious you dislike the story in this game. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks. If you're just gonna claim that the game's story is terrible and that's a fact for everyone and whoever likes it simply doesn't understand how bad it is... well there are plenty of piers for you to take a long walk off.

Otherwise, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

[wintermonk]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Wintermonk - and if someone thinks the story was not deep, or good, they're funny - am I right?

What wasn't deep or good about it?  If it's personal taste, sorry, but some people like Coke and some people like Pepsi.  I dont' like Gone with the Wind.  It's not my cup of tea.  Nor is Casablanca a movie I like, but the people who made those movies didn't make them for me, personally.  I dont' walk around saying those movies are stupid because the director didn't personally consult me and ask what kind of movie would stir my soul.

I enjoyed DA2 immensely.  No, the story is not as "deep" as, save, the Lord of the Rings, but there are limitations.  I enjoyed Sacred 1 and 2, and DA2 has ten times the story the sacred games have.  Diablo games?

This game had a very deep story compared to most games.  I think the game just wasn't your cup of tea.  Maybe you like to go out and journey across hostile environments and get some magic trinket to fight some big bad dark being threatening the world.  I've been there and done that, and I rather enjoyed what felt like actually playing a role in a city dealing with political issues.  Bioware went through a lot of work coming up with the various nations, cultures, races, lore, and so on.  I thought this game explored a lot of that, and I applaud them for it, despite the games flaws.

[wikkedjoker]

Because they wrote themselves into a corner. When you think about it, Hawk is pointless to the over all conflict. The Idol is pointless, the Qunnari is pointless, the only thing needed form this game was Anders.

*Anders took justice into himself.
*Karl got made tranquil.

Motive enough to blow up the Chantry and start a Holy War, because he feels hes wronged. With out Hawk nothing changes, Anders still would have blown up the Chantry. Even with out the Idol the Knight Commander was still a bit of a lose cannon. If she didn't kill the Mages, people would have, and the Mages would have fought back. Bam WAR!

Modifié par wikkedjoker, 30 mars 2011 - 03:01 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Intelligent answer: To sell DLC.

[Seraph88]

wintermonk wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Wintermonk - and if someone thinks the story was not deep, or good, they're funny - am I right?

What wasn't deep or good about it?  If it's personal taste, sorry, but some people like Coke and some people like Pepsi.  I dont' like Gone with the Wind.  It's not my cup of tea.  Nor is Casablanca a movie I like, but the people who made those movies didn't make them for me, personally.  I dont' walk around saying those movies are stupid because the director didn't personally consult me and ask what kind of movie would stir my soul.

I enjoyed DA2 immensely.  No, the story is not as "deep" as, save, the Lord of the Rings, but there are limitations.  I enjoyed Sacred 1 and 2, and DA2 has ten times the story the sacred games have.  Diablo games?

This game had a very deep story compared to most games.  I think the game just wasn't your cup of tea.  Maybe you like to go out and journey across hostile environments and get some magic trinket to fight some big bad dark being threatening the world.  I've been there and done that, and I rather enjoyed what felt like actually playing a role in a city dealing with political issues.  Bioware went through a lot of work coming up with the various nations, cultures, races, lore, and so on.  I thought this game explored a lot of that, and I applaud them for it, despite the games flaws.

You're missing the point though... They did all the good stuff you list about in DA2 in DA:O, then they rehashed/revamped (****ed up the lore in my opinion) some of it, came up with 3 dungeon levels, 1 city, DLC on release day, and try to legitimately sell this as the sequel to arguably one of the best RPGs of the 00s with absolutely no backlash from its hardcore fanbase??? 

UMADBRO????

Modifié par Seraph88, 30 mars 2011 - 03:21 .

[Doyle41]

I think the plot of Thedas was the primary focus here. Hawke was just a vessel to move the story on.

[neppakyo]

Doyle41 wrote...

I think the plot of Thedas was the primary focus here. Hawke was just a vessel to move the story on.

If it was, they failed on that too.

[barenas]

Not having an overarching plot wasn't the issue. They tried something different and I liked it. However, the problem was that I felt there wasn't any real effect from my choices in the game. I think in a story like this there needed to be some significant divergences due to the choices the character made in the game. But that wasn't the case so it almost made it worthless and I felt like I was reading (or watching) a book. So in essence, I liked the idea but I just wish they went about it in a different manner.

Modifié par barenas, 30 mars 2011 - 04:02 .

[Medhia Nox]

@wintermonk - actually I've already stated in several other posts that I think the entire game should have been about friends and family - and the main plot should have been about the Kirkwall Killer.

So - please, don't be snide by thinking I'm so myopic that the only thing I can appreciate is a sweeping epic where a very clear puppy-kicking evil source can be destroyed and good will live happily-ever after.

I don't like this game because "the best" developer of story-based RPGs sold it to me - because they tried to make it "down to earth" and a "sweeping epic" and I believe they failed on both angles. Because this game doesn't even have the illusion that your choices matter - it rubs it on your face that they don't. It might as well have been one of Ander's final dialogue options. "You see Hawke, nothing you say or do matters - because I'm telling the story!"

Honestly - I know what Star Wars fans feel like now after frothing at the mouth over episodes 4, 5, and 6 for decades... only to have Lucas tell them what he really thought of them when he made episodes 1, 2, and 3.

So - Bioware put out a great world that I loved, and a great game that I enjoyed with Origins... "2" has killed the buzz, but not so much yet as to convince me to simply walk away. Hence - I stick around these boards ****ing and moaning.

I expect more out of "the best" company than this crap.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 30 mars 2011 - 06:58 .

[AngelicMachinery]

I enjoy how open it is, I'm currently playing a blood mage who pretends to be all flowers and butterflies who is supporting the templars as her first step in turning Kirkwall into a new arm of the Tevinter imperium.

[Medhia Nox]

@scyphozoa - because the game was trying to appeal to both "non-epic" and "epic" story styles... the dragon part was trying to appease the "epic" crowd.

[Lord Gremlin]

wikkedjoker wrote...

Because they wrote themselves into a corner. When you think about it, Hawk is pointless to the over all conflict. The Idol is pointless, the Qunnari is pointless, the only thing needed form this game was Anders.

*Anders took justice into himself.
*Karl got made tranquil.

Motive enough to blow up the Chantry and start a Holy War, because he feels hes wronged. With out Hawk nothing changes, Anders still would have blown up the Chantry. Even with out the Idol the Knight Commander was still a bit of a lose cannon. If she didn't kill the Mages, people would have, and the Mages would have fought back. Bam WAR!

Actually, you've just nailed the problem. Remove Warden from DAO - what happens? See Darkspawn Chronicles for the answer. Some lucky hurlock becomes Archdemon's favorite pet for killing last Grey Warden. Thedas is destroyed. Because of Warden the Blight is stopped.
Now remove Hawke from DA2. Anything changed? No, not really.
And that is a HUGE problem.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lord Gremlin - of course something changes!

One of the companions doesn't have a "romance". Now - if that isn't great storytelling...

[AngelicMachinery]

scyphozoa wrote...

Can anyone tell me why Hawke thought it was remotely reasonable to kill a mature Dragon in Act 1?
Seriously, this dude is trying to put food on the table for his family, and instead of doing something anywhere close to reasonable, like get a job, he decides to take up dragon/demon hunting?

Seriously? Please provide a threat or incentive worthy of my Player character risking their life. Trying to put my mom in a nicer home might warrant hard work and effort, but it does not warrant fighting dragons.

So what, Hawke is just a dragon-slayer enthusiast on the side?

If I could kill Dragons, I'd rather do that than get a job myself.

[scpulley]

ZombiePowered wrote...

As I stated earlier, Hawke is the story. So every part of the game is the part of the main story.

This has been mentioned before so I'm curious for someone to actually explain that. Yes, Hawke is the main story and his rise to power. My only question, because to me this is where this game fell apart story wise, why does Hawke care? Whether his sister is the alive and is the mage in the family, she is out of the picture well before the big decision, or Hawke is, in which case he runs around throwing spells around with zero apparent consiquence, he has no reason to be involved with the templar/mage conflict. He can't really be lumped with the mages easily because he can do what he wants basically, the templars are a bit easier to side with outside of their oppresive dictator like leader, he has his wealth and home, the city literally chewed up his family and spit them out, so he doesn't care in my opinion about the city's well being per say. Where does the story of Hawke point to him having any reason to care about the conflict? The answer is it doesn't. If anything, it just justifies him getting the hell out of dodge and letting the city burn. That's not a real creative story, and despite the tired and true story of DAO at least you cared about it. Creativity means nothing if the interaction between the story and the reader is non existant.

[axl99]

In case a couple people haven't noticed, there's 3 little plotlines, two of which does involve hitting the great evil over the head with a big stick. 

BUT HERE'S THE KICKER: For one of them you get to CHOOSE which head you wanna smack.

There are a few events in the game that make your character become emotionally invested in the things that do go on. And it would be a damn shame if no one empathizes with the things Hawke went through. Even if you, as Hawke, feel absolutely no attachment to the people of Kirkwall, you'd still have unfinished business with some of the residents anyway.

Modifié par axl99, 30 mars 2011 - 08:02 .

[AkiKishi]

scyphozoa wrote...

Can anyone tell me why Hawke thought it was remotely reasonable to kill a mature Dragon in Act 1?
Seriously, this dude is trying to put food on the table for his family, and instead of doing something anywhere close to reasonable, like get a job, he decides to take up dragon/demon hunting?

Seriously? Please provide a threat or incentive worthy of my Player character risking their life. Trying to put my mom in a nicer home might warrant hard work and effort, but it does not warrant fighting dragons.

So what, Hawke is just a dragon-slayer enthusiast on the side?

I was level 5 at the time, one of the first things I did.What I learned fighting Flemeth made it very easy. That's probably more of a scaling issue though.

The loot made dragons a bit of a let down.

AngelicMachinery wrote...

If I could kill Dragons, I'd rather do that than get a job myself.

The loot they drop, you would be better off delivering Pizza.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 30 mars 2011 - 07:57 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

You are right, why care for a city and it's people if all they ever did was spit on you and other refugees, then take away what little family you have left, there were no real choices in this game to be made, and what was that crap with the dockworker three sovereigns to get him to talk, why couldn't I just kill him in broad daylight I kill alot of people in that game in broad daylight, please patch it so I can murder knife that snarky bastard and get my money back

You can murder knife threaten him with an aggressive Hawke. My Hawke did