BobSmith101 wrote...
I was level 5 at the time, one of the first things I did.What I learned fighting Flemeth made it very easy. That's probably more of a scaling issue though.
The loot made dragons a bit of a let down.
Modifié par Galad22, 30 mars 2011 - 08:04 .
Skilled Seeker wrote...
You can murder knife threaten him with an aggressive Hawke. My Hawke didMad-Max90 wrote...
You are right, why care for a city and it's people if all they ever did was spit on you and other refugees, then take away what little family you have left, there were no real choices in this game to be made, and what was that crap with the dockworker three sovereigns to get him to talk, why couldn't I just kill him in broad daylight I kill alot of people in that game in broad daylight, please patch it so I can murder knife that snarky bastard and get my money back
Conduit0 wrote...
Because the Devs thought it would be funny to make a story that the people who are so used to the "big bad evil is threatening the world" trope that they can't even think of anything else, wouldn't be able to understand. They succeeded.
scpulley wrote...
This has been mentioned before so I'm curious for someone to actually explain that. Yes, Hawke is the main story and his rise to power. My only question, because to me this is where this game fell apart story wise, why does Hawke care? Whether his sister is the alive and is the mage in the family, she is out of the picture well before the big decision, or Hawke is, in which case he runs around throwing spells around with zero apparent consiquence, he has no reason to be involved with the templar/mage conflict. He can't really be lumped with the mages easily because he can do what he wants basically, the templars are a bit easier to side with outside of their oppresive dictator like leader, he has his wealth and home, the city literally chewed up his family and spit them out, so he doesn't care in my opinion about the city's well being per say. Where does the story of Hawke point to him having any reason to care about the conflict? The answer is it doesn't. If anything, it just justifies him getting the hell out of dodge and letting the city burn. That's not a real creative story, and despite the tired and true story of DAO at least you cared about it. Creativity means nothing if the interaction between the story and the reader is non existant.
Lord Gremlin wrote...
Actually, you've just nailed the problem. Remove Warden from DAO - what happens? See Darkspawn Chronicles for the answer. Some lucky hurlock becomes Archdemon's favorite pet for killing last Grey Warden. Thedas is destroyed. Because of Warden the Blight is stopped.wikkedjoker wrote...
Because they wrote themselves into a corner. When you think about it, Hawk is pointless to the over all conflict. The Idol is pointless, the Qunnari is pointless, the only thing needed form this game was Anders.
*Anders took justice into himself.
*Karl got made tranquil.
Motive enough to blow up the Chantry and start a Holy War, because he feels hes wronged. With out Hawk nothing changes, Anders still would have blown up the Chantry. Even with out the Idol the Knight Commander was still a bit of a lose cannon. If she didn't kill the Mages, people would have, and the Mages would have fought back. Bam WAR!
Now remove Hawke from DA2. Anything changed? No, not really.
And that is a HUGE problem.
LiquidGrape wrote...
scpulley wrote...
This has been mentioned before so I'm curious for someone to actually explain that. Yes, Hawke is the main story and his rise to power. My only question, because to me this is where this game fell apart story wise, why does Hawke care? Whether his sister is the alive and is the mage in the family, she is out of the picture well before the big decision, or Hawke is, in which case he runs around throwing spells around with zero apparent consiquence, he has no reason to be involved with the templar/mage conflict. He can't really be lumped with the mages easily because he can do what he wants basically, the templars are a bit easier to side with outside of their oppresive dictator like leader, he has his wealth and home, the city literally chewed up his family and spit them out, so he doesn't care in my opinion about the city's well being per say. Where does the story of Hawke point to him having any reason to care about the conflict? The answer is it doesn't. If anything, it just justifies him getting the hell out of dodge and letting the city burn. That's not a real creative story, and despite the tired and true story of DAO at least you cared about it. Creativity means nothing if the interaction between the story and the reader is non existant.
Psst! Y'know, there kinda are people in that city who, y'know, might kinda matter to Hawke.
Just sayin'.
Either that, or Hawke might just be a rational character who recognises that leaving Kirkwall in this vulnerable and critically unstable state will have far-reaching consequences which cannot be overlooked.
That you apply a certain mentality to Hawke doesn't override the established dramatic framework.
Modifié par scpulley, 30 mars 2011 - 08:16 .
scpulley wrote...
LiquidGrape wrote...
scpulley wrote...
This has been mentioned before so I'm curious for someone to actually explain that. Yes, Hawke is the main story and his rise to power. My only question, because to me this is where this game fell apart story wise, why does Hawke care? Whether his sister is the alive and is the mage in the family, she is out of the picture well before the big decision, or Hawke is, in which case he runs around throwing spells around with zero apparent consiquence, he has no reason to be involved with the templar/mage conflict. He can't really be lumped with the mages easily because he can do what he wants basically, the templars are a bit easier to side with outside of their oppresive dictator like leader, he has his wealth and home, the city literally chewed up his family and spit them out, so he doesn't care in my opinion about the city's well being per say. Where does the story of Hawke point to him having any reason to care about the conflict? The answer is it doesn't. If anything, it just justifies him getting the hell out of dodge and letting the city burn. That's not a real creative story, and despite the tired and true story of DAO at least you cared about it. Creativity means nothing if the interaction between the story and the reader is non existant.
Psst! Y'know, there kinda are people in that city who, y'know, might kinda matter to Hawke.
Just sayin'.
Either that, or Hawke might just be a rational character who recognises that leaving Kirkwall in this vulnerable and critically unstable state will have far-reaching consequences which cannot be overlooked.
That you apply a certain mentality to Hawke doesn't override the established dramatic framework.
Who? His companions? They could have just as easily left, and they all do in the end anyway. None of his companions were actually FROM Kirkwall, they were just there. And yeah, it's unstable, but who was Hawke? A nobody that got rich going into the Deep Roads. He wasn't from Kirkwall, really, he did some favors for people with power. It failed to actually give him a real connection to the events. It just sort of assumed Hawke cared. At least in DAO the Warden had some obligation to kill the Archdemon. Hawke I felt like had all the reason in the world to be as not involved as possible.
scpulley wrote...
Who? His companions? They could have just as easily left, and they all do in the end anyway. None of his companions were actually FROM Kirkwall, they were just there. And yeah, it's unstable, but who was Hawke? A nobody that got rich going into the Deep Roads. He wasn't from Kirkwall, really, he did some favors for people with power. It failed to actually give him a real connection to the events. It just sort of assumed Hawke cared. At least in DAO the Warden had some obligation to kill the Archdemon. Hawke I felt like had all the reason in the world to be as not involved as possible.
LiquidGrape wrote...
The only obligation of the Warden is enforced by plot. You can suggest fleeing responsibility at several instances in the game, but you are consistently denied that possibility. Every time.
Why?
Because the story told in Origins demanded that the player character ultimately felt obliged to fight the blight.
JaegerBane wrote...
To be honest the plot made it abundantly clear that simply running away from the Blight was, at best, postponing the problem, and that if it wasn't dealt with it would literally result in the end of the world. It also made it clear that the player was virtually the only person in the country who could actually do anything about it.
I could see where you were going if you were advocating roleplaying a total idiot, but for anyone who isn't, there wasn't really any other option but to do something about the blight, even if getting on a boat was an offered choice.
In comparison, the fate of Kirkwall doesn't have anywhere near the consequences. The World isn't going to end if Hawke leaves it to burn.
Modifié par LiquidGrape, 30 mars 2011 - 08:37 .
AngelicMachinery wrote...
scpulley wrote...
LiquidGrape wrote...
scpulley wrote...
This has been mentioned before so I'm curious for someone to actually explain that. Yes, Hawke is the main story and his rise to power. My only question, because to me this is where this game fell apart story wise, why does Hawke care? Whether his sister is the alive and is the mage in the family, she is out of the picture well before the big decision, or Hawke is, in which case he runs around throwing spells around with zero apparent consiquence, he has no reason to be involved with the templar/mage conflict. He can't really be lumped with the mages easily because he can do what he wants basically, the templars are a bit easier to side with outside of their oppresive dictator like leader, he has his wealth and home, the city literally chewed up his family and spit them out, so he doesn't care in my opinion about the city's well being per say. Where does the story of Hawke point to him having any reason to care about the conflict? The answer is it doesn't. If anything, it just justifies him getting the hell out of dodge and letting the city burn. That's not a real creative story, and despite the tired and true story of DAO at least you cared about it. Creativity means nothing if the interaction between the story and the reader is non existant.
Psst! Y'know, there kinda are people in that city who, y'know, might kinda matter to Hawke.
Just sayin'.
Either that, or Hawke might just be a rational character who recognises that leaving Kirkwall in this vulnerable and critically unstable state will have far-reaching consequences which cannot be overlooked.
That you apply a certain mentality to Hawke doesn't override the established dramatic framework.
Who? His companions? They could have just as easily left, and they all do in the end anyway. None of his companions were actually FROM Kirkwall, they were just there. And yeah, it's unstable, but who was Hawke? A nobody that got rich going into the Deep Roads. He wasn't from Kirkwall, really, he did some favors for people with power. It failed to actually give him a real connection to the events. It just sort of assumed Hawke cared. At least in DAO the Warden had some obligation to kill the Archdemon. Hawke I felt like had all the reason in the world to be as not involved as possible.
Yea, but, I was forced into being a Gray Warden. It's not like I have any choice in the matter, why should I care if the darkspawn eat all of Ferelden. I could just go and get on a boat and settle in some far off land away from the silly little monsters.
In almost every RPG you can say there's no reason for your character to be doing what they're doing. Just because your a grey warden that doesn't mean you're suddenly filled with the desire to ride griphon's and kill Darkspawn.
LiquidGrape wrote...
JaegerBane wrote...
To be honest the plot made it abundantly clear that simply running away from the Blight was, at best, postponing the problem, and that if it wasn't dealt with it would literally result in the end of the world. It also made it clear that the player was virtually the only person in the country who could actually do anything about it.
I could see where you were going if you were advocating roleplaying a total idiot, but for anyone who isn't, there wasn't really any other option but to do something about the blight, even if getting on a boat was an offered choice.
In comparison, the fate of Kirkwall doesn't have anywhere near the consequences. The World isn't going to end if Hawke leaves it to burn.
Without delving into spoilers (which are prohibited on this particular forum), two words:
Magi complications.
If you've played the game, I think you'll agree that the implications of Dragon Age 2's final act are potentially quite cataclysmic.
LiquidGrape wrote...
JaegerBane wrote...
To be honest the plot made it abundantly clear that simply running away from the Blight was, at best, postponing the problem, and that if it wasn't dealt with it would literally result in the end of the world. It also made it clear that the player was virtually the only person in the country who could actually do anything about it.
I could see where you were going if you were advocating roleplaying a total idiot, but for anyone who isn't, there wasn't really any other option but to do something about the blight, even if getting on a boat was an offered choice.
In comparison, the fate of Kirkwall doesn't have anywhere near the consequences. The World isn't going to end if Hawke leaves it to burn.
Without delving into spoilers (which are prohibited on this particular forum), two words:
Magi complications.
If you've played the game, I think you'll agree that the implications of Dragon Age 2's final act are potentially quite cataclysmic.
Modifié par JaegerBane, 30 mars 2011 - 08:52 .
I used the intimidate persuasion option that popped up because I role played an aggressive Hawke. It did make a difference as I didn't have to give him a penny though Varric wasn't too happy about my methods!BobSmith101 wrote...
Skilled Seeker wrote...
You can murder knife threaten him with an aggressive Hawke. My Hawke didMad-Max90 wrote...
You are right, why care for a city and it's people if all they ever did was spit on you and other refugees, then take away what little family you have left, there were no real choices in this game to be made, and what was that crap with the dockworker three sovereigns to get him to talk, why couldn't I just kill him in broad daylight I kill alot of people in that game in broad daylight, please patch it so I can murder knife that snarky bastard and get my money back
Did it make any difference? I threatened him and he said something along the lines of "You won't kill me in broad daylight".
This isn't true. If the Warden didn't exist then Alistair would have taken on the task. Darkspawn Chronicles shows you exactly that, the story ends the same way. The bad guys win in that DLC because you are playing as them. The reason the Warden isn't included is because there is no canon Warden. Bioware could have probably allowed us to import our Warden into DC if they put a bit more effort into it.JaegerBane wrote...
LiquidGrape wrote...
JaegerBane wrote...
To be honest the plot made it abundantly clear that simply running away from the Blight was, at best, postponing the problem, and that if it wasn't dealt with it would literally result in the end of the world. It also made it clear that the player was virtually the only person in the country who could actually do anything about it.
I could see where you were going if you were advocating roleplaying a total idiot, but for anyone who isn't, there wasn't really any other option but to do something about the blight, even if getting on a boat was an offered choice.
In comparison, the fate of Kirkwall doesn't have anywhere near the consequences. The World isn't going to end if Hawke leaves it to burn.
Without delving into spoilers (which are prohibited on this particular forum), two words:
Magi complications.
If you've played the game, I think you'll agree that the implications of Dragon Age 2's final act are potentially quite cataclysmic.
I'm not doubting that it's important. All I'm pointing out is that Hawke could have sat on his arse and it wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference. What happened in DA2 would have happened no matter what.
In comparison, we all know what would have happened if the Warden had simply up sticks and ran away. At least those who played Darkspawn Chronicles do.
Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 30 mars 2011 - 10:18 .
JaegerBane wrote...
Perfectly put. One of the major reasons why DA:O felt as epic as it did was because you were playing a character who was quite literally the balance point of the entire quest. If he succeeded, the world is saved, if he fails, the world is doomed. It may be a cliche we've seen a hundred times before, but we've seen it so many times before because it works.
I think part of the problem is how Bioware presented the story to the player. Lots of the important bits that really bring the story together and makes it work are left out on the fringes of the game, in sidequests and companion quests that can be skipped entirely or for a lot of people simply played through on autopilot, never paying attention because the game doesn't do anything to say, "HEY, this parts important, pay attention!"Sidney wrote...
JaegerBane wrote...
Perfectly put. One of the major reasons why DA:O felt as epic as it did was because you were playing a character who was quite literally the balance point of the entire quest. If he succeeded, the world is saved, if he fails, the world is doomed. It may be a cliche we've seen a hundred times before, but we've seen it so many times before because it works.
Yes but that fact worked against everything NOT specifically in that main questline. Every side quest, every compnaion quest all felt wrong because you are the only thing that matters and you are risking it all to track down some lost letters or missing villagers? Not to mention twiddling your thumbs while Ferelden burns doing theif quests for example. The problem with the "oh my god, the world is gonna end if we don't do X" plotline is that it rather directly conflicts with the more open nature of games people love. I hated it in dAO and I hated the UCW stuff in ME1 because they slap you in the face over and over with how wrong it is you are even doing these things.
Still, the notion that you must be the fulcrum of history to be interesting is wrong. Sometimes the small stories matter. Sometimes you can't change the world. Odysseus couldn't change his world not matter how he struggled. If you'vce seen Paths of Glory the greatness of the film isn't the hero's triumph but merely the hero's struggle. Taxi Driver surely has a character who fights the world but can't change it. All Quiet on the Western Front is a whole opus of not saving the world. It is a different kind of story, not so much better or worse just different but for the fomat of a cRPG it works because of what I disucssed in the first paragraph.
Conduit0 wrote...
...
I think part of the problem is how Bioware presented the story to the player. Lots of the important bits that really bring the story together and makes it work are left out on the fringes of the game, in sidequests and companion quests that can be skipped entirely or for a lot of people simply played through on autopilot, never paying attention because the game doesn't do anything to say, "HEY, this parts important, pay attention!"
...
Sidney wrote...
Still, the notion that you must be the fulcrum of history to be interesting is wrong. Sometimes the small stories matter. Sometimes you can't change the world. Odysseus couldn't change his world not matter how he struggled. If you'vce seen Paths of Glory the greatness of the film isn't the hero's triumph but merely the hero's struggle. Taxi Driver surely has a character who fights the world but can't change it. All Quiet on the Western Front is a whole opus of not saving the world. It is a different kind of story, not so much better or worse just different but for the fomat of a cRPG it works because of what I disucssed in the first paragraph.
Modifié par BobSmith101, 31 mars 2011 - 11:46 .
BobSmith101 wrote...
FFXIII is less linear than DA2 and that is really saying something.
Modifié par DominusFalcon, 31 mars 2011 - 07:52 .
Retour en haut
