102 réponses à ce sujet

[Camenae]

@ Lithuasil.

I feel you. When I say the argument goes both ways I really mean that it goes both ways. Honestly I think it's completely irrelevant exactly how many mages there are in the Kirkwall Circle or how many Hawke sees who go wrong. Bad sampling/insufficient sampling size anyone? Even if there were only ONE innocent mage, then I still would say it's wrong to annul the entire Circle if there's no way to tell which one it is.

But by that same token, I can't support a course of action that embodies "kill everyone in the church" or "kill all the Templars because they're all evil oppressors." I'd be a hypocrite if I did.

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

With the exception of Feynriel and that orlesian, and neither of those go bloodmage.

Well Feynriel goes super I-will-kill-you-in-your-dreams mage so I'm not sure it's any better (given that the only options presented are either "go to Tevinter and apprentice to EVIL" or tranquil).

[LobselVith8]

Aelia wrote...

Right.... we meet the free ones  

There's Merrill, Keeper Marethari, Feynriel, and Bethany. When we have mages who are on the wrong side, we can cite the two mages who were sane before they entered the Circle, and homocidal maniacs afterwards (which is considerable when one of the mages was a mage raised in the Ferelden Circle before being imprisoned in the Gallows).

Aelia wrote...

Meanwhile, I met a number of templars actively working against Meredith and putting themselves on the line to help the plight of the mages.  Seems to me that some templars actually fought along side me against Meredith in the final battle. <shrug>

I agree that there are good templars. I respect what Ser Thrask tried to do. But when people say that all mages are evil because of the fraction we encountered, the same argument could be said about the templars and how many willingly enforced the Rite of Annulment against innocent mages and apprentices. I don't think all mages should be condemned any more than all templars should.

[Aelia]

Lithuasil wrote...

More interestingly - from what I gathered in the game, I'm assuming a garrison of several thousand templars. How many of those are actually sensible? Thrask, Keran, Emeric, Cullen (arguably) and Carver if he survives. That's 3-5 people in an entire army.

It's 3-5 more Templars than we saw mages depicted as their counter parts.

-A

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's Merrill, Keeper Marethari, Feynriel, and Bethany.

Blood mage, abomination, Tevinter apprentice, Hawke family exception.

[Rifneno]

Aelia wrote...
Like I said yesterday, Lobs... I actually agree with the statement you make that we shouldn't judge a group by the actions of specific individuals, the problem is that BW didn't do enough to make the group worth saving.  Can I have just ONE mage, who is not myself, in the vein of a Cullen or a Trask... please, BW, pretty please.

-A

Bethany, Ella, Marethari, Feynriel, and Alain.

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

Ella,

Who's that again?

Alain.

You mean the blood mage who fell under the sway of a psychotic, idiot leader twice?

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's Merrill, Keeper Marethari, Feynriel, and Bethany.

Blood mage, abomination, Tevinter apprentice, Hawke family exception.

Grey Warden mages resort to blood magic as well, Marethari doesn't become an abomination until much later and only to see the demon Audacity destroyed, Fenryiel isn't evil simply because he goes to Tevinter, and (in Kirk voice) I don't believe in the Hawke family exception.

[Camenae]

Ella is the mage at the end of Anders' Act II Dissent quest. The one he could end up killing.

[Curlain]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Ella,

I think Ella is the girl you rescue from Ser Alrik in the Tranquil Solution quest (I really wish they didn't go for that name for it, but nvm)

Agreed with Alian he was a bit of an idiot, must have been taking lessons from Jowan at some point

Edit: ninja's above 

Modifié par Curlain, 29 mars 2011 - 02:43 .

[Lithuasil]

@Camenae

I'm not in the "kill all the templars" camp either.
I'll be in whatever camp the origin in DA3 presents the most convincing. That said, I find it nigh impossible to side with the templars in DA2, since even if I'm no mage myself, I'd have to be mean to bethany and merill to do so, and the game is quite good at convincing me not to want that :3

[LobselVith8]

Curlain wrote...

I think Ella is the girl you rescue from Ser Alrik in the Tranquil Solution quest (I really wish they didn't go for that name for it, but nvm)

Agreed with Alian he was a bit of an idiot, must have been taking lessons from Jowan at some point

Edit: ninja's above 

If you speak with him in Act II, Alain reveals he's a victim of rape by a templar who threatens him with tranquility if he reveals it to anyone.

[Camenae]

Curlain wrote...

I think Ella is the girl you rescue from Ser Alrik in the Tranquil Solution quest (I really wish they didn't go for that name for it, but nvm)

I agree about the Tranquil Solution thing.  It just felt like it was...in bad taste. 

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Ella,

Who's that again?

The mage that Ser Alrik was going to tranquil and less than subtly implies will rape because she was sneaking out to tell her mother why she just disappeared into thin air.  Not very memorable because they decided to take the focus off of that and put it on Anders going psycho.  If you stop him from killing her, she sends a letter later on though.  Certainly doesn't seem to be evil.  I guess she wasn't locked up in the superhaunted Gallows by the templars long enough to turn.

Alain.

You mean the blood mage who fell under the sway of a psychotic, idiot leader twice?

As the original question was mages who are along the same vein as Thrask, and as Thrask was part of that very same group...  yes.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Grey Warden mages resort to blood magic as well,

Yeah that worked out real well for Dryden's lot. *cough*

Marethari doesn't become an abomination until much later and only to see the demon Audacity destroyed,

Regardless, she became an abomination through the demon's trickery.

Fenryiel isn't evil simply because he goes to Tevinter,

He's a mage with an unheard of power apprenticing to a Magister, do you think that's going to turn out well?

and (in Kirk voice) I don't believe in the Hawke family exception.

Tis there all the same..

Camenae wrote...

Ella is the mage at the end of Anders' Act II Dissent quest. The one he could end up killing.

Ah, her. Well all we know of her is that she didn't instantly turn into an abomination when backed into a corner.
But that's a pretty sad state when that's considered worthy of praise.

[The Angry One]

Rifneno wrote...

As the original question was mages who are along the same vein as Thrask, and as Thrask was part of that very same group...  yes.

Thrask at least has the benefit of the doubt in that he may not have known exactly what kind of psychotic self-entitled piece of crap ***** Grace is.
What's Alain's excuse? Also, blood mage.

[Lithuasil]

Well, the templars we praise are a guy who has an affair and gets killed by the murderer he's pursuing, a guy who gets kidnapped because he had to go into a brothel (but my pay is so low, I can't support my sister if I'm not a full knight - o rly?), a dick of a younger brother and two colossal morons.

There's not many people to praise on either side, is there?

[Curlain]

LobselVith8 wrote...



If you speak with him in Act II, Alain reveals he's a victim of rape by a templar who threatens him with tranquility if he reveals it to anyone.

Really, interesting, never came across it in my covnos with him, so that is interesting

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

Well, the templars we praise are a guy who has an affair and gets killed by the murderer he's pursuing, a guy who gets kidnapped because he had to go into a brothel (but my pay is so low, I can't support my sister if I'm not a full knight - o rly?), a dick of a younger brother and two colossal morons.

There's not many people to praise on either side, is there?

None of those tends to get other people killed or worse though.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah that worked out real well for Dryden's lot. *cough*

Given Avernus' research and achievements with exploiting the potential of the taint, which could give the Wardens a useful weapon against the darkspawn who threaten all of humanity and every sentient race in Thedas, it apparently did work out real well.

The Angry One wrote...

He's a mage with an unheard of power apprenticing to a Magister, do you think that's going to turn out well?

There was a Tevinter Magister who tried to abolish slavery. Couldn't Feynriel do the same, especially with his power and having Dalish heritage?

The Angry One wrote...

Tis there all the same..

Bethany and Hawke can prove that not all apostates are evil or fall to the corruption of demons, in the same way Malcolm did by not becoming an abomination. And we know from the "Band of Three" that the Veil is considerably weak in Kirkwall.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

PsychoWARD23 wrote...

 Oh, I don't know, every mage didn't turn to Blood Magic or bombed the Chantry full of innocents.

Blood mages know that sacrifices must be made for personal gain the greater good.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 29 mars 2011 - 02:52 .

[The Angry One]

Curlain wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...



If you speak with him in Act II, Alain reveals he's a victim of rape by a templar who threatens him with tranquility if he reveals it to anyone.

Really, interesting, never came across it in my covnos with him, so that is interesting

Is this in dialog or random npc-click responses?
I find it hard to believe any of the doom stories they say while the rebellious leaders is standing around the courtyard unmonitored.
(Not saying it isn't true, but because we never go into the prison they put all these people outside and it just feels stupid)

[Curlain]

Lithuasil wrote...

Well, the templars we praise are a guy who has an affair and gets killed by the murderer he's pursuing, a guy who gets kidnapped because he had to go into a brothel (but my pay is so low, I can't support my sister if I'm not a full knight - o rly?), a dick of a younger brother and two colossal morons.

There's not many people to praise on either side, is there?

I don't think he was having an affair with that Orlesian guy's wife he was tracking her because he disappearance was similar to that of a female mage of mature years who had also disappeared in similar circumstances.  He started track the wife because he had been tracking the mage

Modifié par Curlain, 29 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[Aelia]

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's Merrill, Keeper Marethari, Feynriel, and Bethany. When we have mages who are on the wrong side, we can cite the two mages who were sane before they entered the Circle, and homocidal maniacs afterwards (which is considerable when one of the mages was a mage raised in the Ferelden Circle before being imprisoned in the Gallows).

Merrill, consorts with demons and is only saved because Marethari takes the bullet for her.  Otherwise, I'd have had to put her down, just as I was forced to put down my boyfriend after he decides blowing up buildings is the way to go.  Feynriel begs me to make him tranquil because even he knows he's not going to be able to resist in the end.  I don't get to keep Bethany because BW decided I couldn't. 

Marethari, I will give you, although in my play through her sacrifice, ended with the deaths of every member of her village... Seems like maybe she shoulda let some one else know what she was up to so I wouldn't be forced to wipe them out in self defense... can't tell you how much I enjoyed being in THAT position.

I agree that there are good templars. I respect what Ser Thrask tried to do. But when people say that all mages are evil because of the fraction we encountered, the same argument could be said about the templars and how many willingly enforced the Rite of Annulment against innocent mages and apprentices. I don't think all mages should be condemned any more than all templars should.

We agree here.  We differ only in that you don't seem concerned by the fact that BW has done nothing to make the Mages sympathetic.  Intellectually, your point about the unnamed masses in the gallow is excellent, but storytelling 101 says show me don't tell me.

[Lithuasil]

@The Angry One

Another mage during that time tells you "Do not speak to me, we get 30 lashes when we're caught speaking with a civilian".
It's just ham-handedly executed, having them all stand in the courtyard, five foot from the next templar.