102 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Aelia wrote...

Merrill, consorts with demons and is only saved because Marethari takes the bullet for her. 

We don't know if that's accurate. Audacity's plan all along could have been for Marethari. We have no way to prove with any certainty.

Aelia wrote...

We agree here.  We differ only in that you don't seem concerned by the fact that BW has done nothing to make the Mages sympathetic.  Intellectually, your point about the unnamed masses in the gallow is excellent, but storytelling 101 says show me don't tell me.

David Gaider admitted that there should have been more story elements to illustrate this point, but having gone through the story as an apostate mage, my protagonist was the living example that not all mages are the same, and they shouldn't be executed all at once for the actions of a man who had no ties to the Kirkwall Circle.

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

@The Angry One

Another mage during that time tells you "Do not speak to me, we get 30 lashes when we're caught speaking with a civilian".
It's just ham-handedly executed, having them all stand in the courtyard, five foot from the next templar.

Yes, that's the kind of thing that gets on my nerves. A complete disconnect between visual setting and dialog.

[Lithuasil]

Well, the entire gameplay is essentially this (and has been, in every bioware game ever made ever).

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

Well, the entire gameplay is essentially this (and has been, in every bioware game ever made ever).

Yes but there's casting blood magic in front of a templar who does nothing because of your main character shield and then there's messing up the premise of the entire game because your zone is showing one thing and characters are claiming another.

I can only assume we were supposed to go inside the prison to see the mistreatment but it got cut and the characters meant to populate it were all shoved into the courtyard to complain about nothing.
Not that this explains Grace though.

[Lithuasil]

Grace is either a cunning bloodmage, who played you after she saw her lover getting murdered, or barking mad. How she was not made tranquil over six years in the circle, I don't know - I can only assume she played the templars like she did Hawke.

And I'm totally with you in your complaint - it's just that DA2 isn't the only, nor the worst offender in this catergory. I mean, of the maybe two hundred games I played, there's one who actually got this right, and made gameplay and lore become close to one.

[Aelia]

Lithuasil wrote...

@The Angry One

Another mage during that time tells you "Do not speak to me, we get 30 lashes when we're caught speaking with a civilian".
It's just ham-handedly executed, having them all stand in the courtyard, five foot from the next templar.

I don't remember this.  Is this quest related or someone I could click on for a random comment.  If it's a random comment it goes to my point.  We were involved in quests where templars are trying to do the right thing.  The mage's did not "involve" the player in the same way.

[Camenae]

Well for Grace it's just that she made the problem entirely personal. Her actions are similar to the forumites who are saying, "I don't care. Mage killed my mom, mages die." She's saying "I don't care. Champion killed my man, Champion et al. die." Is it right? No. But I can see how she got there.

[Rifneno]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah that worked out real well for Dryden's lot. *cough*

A sample size of one is not scientifically compelling proof of anything.

He's a mage with an unheard of power apprenticing to a Magister, do you think that's going to turn out well?

So we're using the power corrupts angle.  Well, the templars' abuses of power certainly give you lots of fodder for that point.

Thrask at least has the benefit of the doubt in that he may not have known exactly what kind of psychotic self-entitled piece of crap ***** Grace is.
What's Alain's excuse? Also, blood mage.

Why exactly does Thrask earn the benefit of the doubt?  He was there at the Circle with Grace for years as well.  We don't know how closely either of them knew her.  But judging by Samson's bit about not having the stomach to go against all that is holy to be part of that group, we can reasonably deduce that they were using blood magic openly amongst other members of the rebellion.  In other words, Thrask knew he was surrounded by blood mages.  And he was taking Grace's word on Hawke siding with Meredith and was willing to be a part of kidnapping Bethany/Carver/Whomever.

(Not saying it isn't true, but because we never go into the prison they put all these people outside and it just feels stupid)

My favorite part of it is that people like Grace are allowed to wander the courtyard while the superdangerous Bethany is kept safely away.  Okaaay then.

[Lithuasil]

@Aelia
It's a female mage patrolling the courtyard in act 2. You can't even click her, dialogue is just triggered when you go near.

[The Angry One]

The thing with Grace is, if you send her back to the circle in Act 1, Thrask will say 3 random Starkhaven mages were executed for escaping and Grace is agitating among the mages, causing trouble.

So we're supposed to believe that 3 mages were killed order of the Knight-Commander just for escaping, yet Grace, a trouble-maker who will not shut up and if not outed as a blood mage must at least be suspected to be since her lover was is not even made tranquil? Come on.

[Lithuasil]

Cunning trickster indeed

[Curlain]

Lithuasil wrote...

Grace is either a cunning bloodmage, who played you after she saw her lover getting murdered, or barking mad. How she was not made tranquil over six years in the circle, I don't know - I can only assume she played the templars like she did Hawke.

And I'm totally with you in your complaint - it's just that DA2 isn't the only, nor the worst offender in this catergory. I mean, of the maybe two hundred games I played, there's one who actually got this right, and made gameplay and lore become close to one.

My answer to why she wasn't made tranquil would have been because only those who are judged unfit for the Harrowing are made Tranquil (or choose that instead of the Harrowing), my understanding from Origins was that once you had been through the Harrowing they couldn't make you Tranquil.

But then I remember Karl, I wonder why he was made Tranquil since I assume he did pass his Harrowing (perhaps I missed something in Origins or DA2)

Modifié par Curlain, 29 mars 2011 - 03:19 .

[Lithuasil]

You're completely correct, it's just that the templars in Kirkwall don't care about no chantry law

[The Angry One]

Yeah, in Kirkwall Meredith illegally tranquils mages Harrowing or not for the slightest crime.
Or that's how it's supposed to be anyway.

[Aelia]

Lithuasil wrote...

@Aelia
It's a female mage patrolling the courtyard in act 2. You can't even click her, dialogue is just triggered when you go near.

Even worse... Heaven forbid I opened my map, inventory, etc. just as she started talking.

[Curlain]

Ah fair enough I guess, wonder why the Grand Cleric didn't say anything about the rather flagrant abuse of Chantry law (maybe she wasn't so innocent after all)

[The Angry One]

Curlain wrote...

Ah fair enough I guess, wonder why the Grand Cleric didn't say anything about the rather flagrant abuse of Chantry law (maybe she wasn't so innocent after all)

The high incidence of blood mages/abominations probably let Meredith justify it.

[Camenae]

Okay I do not understand why it's "If you pass your Harrowing, it's ALWAYS illegal to make you Tranquil." In almost every position, we have to have periodic re-evaluations of our fitness.

Circumstances change. I thought the Rite of Tranquility was supposed to prevent demonic possessions period and not just "prevent possessions at time of the Harrowing only." I can easily see how someone might not have been susceptible to demonic possession when they passed their Harrowing, but then later changed and did become susceptible.

[Rifneno]

Curlain wrote...

Ah fair enough I guess, wonder why the Grand Cleric didn't say anything about the rather flagrant abuse of Chantry law (maybe she wasn't so innocent after all)

"Patience, child.  The Maker will do everything, including my job.  It is his will.  He wouldn't have just sent someone else down to do this, someone with authority, like myself."

[Curlain]

Rifneno wrote...

Curlain wrote...

Ah fair enough I guess, wonder why the Grand Cleric didn't say anything about the rather flagrant abuse of Chantry law (maybe she wasn't so innocent after all)

"Patience, child.  The Maker will do everything, including my job.  It is his will.  He wouldn't have just sent someone else down to do this, someone with authority, like myself."

lol yep that sums her character up through much of the game 

She really should have stayed a Revered Mother in in the eqvilent of a village parish someone.  Was truly a case of the wrong person, in the wrong postion at really the wrong time

[Curlain]

Camenae wrote...

Okay I do not understand why it's "If you pass your Harrowing, it's ALWAYS illegal to make you Tranquil." In almost every position, we have to have periodic re-evaluations of our fitness.

Circumstances change. I thought the Rite of Tranquility was supposed to prevent demonic possessions period and not just "prevent possessions at time of the Harrowing only." I can easily see how someone might not have been susceptible to demonic possession when they passed their Harrowing, but then later changed and did become susceptible.

You make a good point, but I understood the postion in Origins to generally be, trust those mages who passed their Harrowing but be watchful, ready to take action if they showed signs of demon possession etc 

[Aelia]

LobselVith8 wrote...
David Gaider admitted that there should have been more story elements to illustrate this point...

Do you have a source for this.  It's a thread or article I think I would like to read.

I disagree with your living example, however... I knew where I stood on Mage freedom before I began playing DA2.  To some degree my character is outside the story arc, simply because I'm allowed to call at least some of the shots... to feel the emotional weight of the mage situation there needs to be cooroboration from another source.

[Camenae]

Curlain wrote...

You make a good point, but I understood the postion in Origins to generally be, trust those mages who passed their Harrowing but be watchful, ready to take action if they showed signs of demon possession etc 

Yea, that's how I thought it was too.  So, I understand that when a mage passes his/her Harrowing, there is a permanent PRESUMPTION against being made Tranquil.  But people are saying that it should be a permanent IMMUNITY?  I don't agree with that, because then what's the alternative when dealing with someone who passed their Harrowing and still became possessed (and we've seen quite a few of those)?  Just kill them?

[lltoon]

"While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the
usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption." - Dragon Age Wiki

"This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination." - Dragon Age Wiki


I am really confused on how all the mages in Kirkwall knew blood magic. So basically they all made deals with demons, knowing fully that they run a very very high risk of becoming abominations.

My theory was that Hawke learnt Blood Magic from sources other than demons. Which explains why blood mages in the game could summon out demons to assist them while hawke could not, because he didn't make any deals with demons to obtain the skill.

Hawke should have just made a circle branch teaching in blood magic so that the circle mages didn't have to turn to demons to learn it. Problem solved.

But nooooo... Hawke had to be such a selfish ******.

Modifié par lltoon, 29 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[Herr Uhl]

lltoon wrote...

"While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the
usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption." -
Dragon Age Wiki

"This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination." - Dragon Age Wiki


I am really confused on how all the mages in Kirkwall knew blood magic. So basically they all made deals with demons, knowing fully that they run a very very high risk of becoming abominations.

My theory was that Hawke learnt Blood Magic from sources other than demons. Which explains why blood mages in the game could summon out demons to assist them while hawke could not, because he didn't make any deals with demons to obtain the skill.

Hawke should have just made a circle branch teaching in blood magic so that the circle mages didn't have to turn to demons to learn it. Problem solved.

But nooooo... Hawke had to be such a selfish ******.

You can learn blood magic without demons. Case in point, Jowan.

And it was hardly rare in Kirkwall, so that wouldn't be much of a problem.