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Anyone tried to import a savegame with Leliana killed?


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#26
Goldens

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ejoslin wrote...

Goldens wrote...

As I understand it, Zevran coming back is a bug. Leliana's death where it occurs was retconned.

The designers offer a slightly flexible world, but they don't always respect its integrity.


I'm beginning to wonder if it IS true that Leliana's appearance is a retcon instead of a bug.  I haven't seen confirmation on that either way.  It actually would make sense, since she has even fewer lines than Zevran, that "Sister Nightengale" could be a different NPC entirely if Leliana is dead in Origins.

I'm not saying one way or the other.  I don't know.  I would prefer for her appearance to be part of the import bug, tbh; I like Leliana, but on a cameo as small as hers, I'd rather people's choices in Origins be recognized. 


Sorry, I only found this on it.

http://social.biowar...71699/1#6680442

#27
ejoslin

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Goldens wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Goldens wrote...

As I understand it, Zevran coming back is a bug. Leliana's death where it occurs was retconned.

The designers offer a slightly flexible world, but they don't always respect its integrity.


I'm beginning to wonder if it IS true that Leliana's appearance is a retcon instead of a bug.  I haven't seen confirmation on that either way.  It actually would make sense, since she has even fewer lines than Zevran, that "Sister Nightengale" could be a different NPC entirely if Leliana is dead in Origins.

I'm not saying one way or the other.  I don't know.  I would prefer for her appearance to be part of the import bug, tbh; I like Leliana, but on a cameo as small as hers, I'd rather people's choices in Origins be recognized. 


Sorry, I only found this on it.

http://social.biowar...71699/1#6680442


Yeh, there's no comment from anyone who would actually know in that thread.  There just hasn't been any confirmation at all.

Given how bugged the imports are right now, just seeing what's in game is no indication.  In the talktable, there is a note if Leliana was killed by the Warden (which further leads me to believe that Leliana always being Nightingale may just be a bug, not a retcon), but I really don't have the patience to look for non-Leliana nightingale dialog, if it exists.

Edit: I'm referring to these flags in the talktable.  If Leliana were always going to be alive, there'd be no need for the one.  There are more Leliana-specific flags, but these give the general idea.

{6203269}The player killed Leliana
{6203270}The player did not kill Leliana
{6203271}

{6203272}

{6203273}Leliana left the party at Lothering
{6203274}Leliana did not leave the party at Lothering

Edit: I know people will argue this saying, "Leliana is the Divine's right hand!  She needs to be in the next game!"  My answer to that is Zevran is waging war on the Antivan crows and is winning, and that ALSO could have huge implications -- his actions could cause Antiva to completely fall.  AND also you have King Alistair/Drunk Alistair/Gray Warden Alistair/Dead Alistair, and somehow they all work.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 mars 2011 - 03:19 .


#28
Goldens

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ejoslin wrote...
Yeh, there's no comment from anyone who would actually know in that thread.  There just hasn't been any confirmation at all.


I was referring specifically to:

"Leliana is alive, no matter what happened at the Urn.  DG has said that you didn't see what you think you saw (or something very similar)."

Maybe you can find this original quote.  I didn't.

It would be easier if they had a search function and dev tracker in this forum, as the SWTOR forum has.

#29
ejoslin

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Goldens wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Yeh, there's no comment from anyone who would actually know in that thread.  There just hasn't been any confirmation at all.


I was referring specifically to:

"Leliana is alive, no matter what happened at the Urn.  DG has said that you didn't see what you think you saw (or something very similar)."

Maybe you can find this original quote.  I didn't.

It would be easier if they had a search function and dev tracker in this forum, as the SWTOR forum has.


It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.

It would be nice to have actual confirmation one way or the other.

Edit: If she didn't actually die, that would be strange, but those mountains were strange anyway.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 mars 2011 - 03:35 .


#30
Goldens

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ejoslin wrote...

Goldens wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Yeh, there's no comment from anyone who would actually know in that thread.  There just hasn't been any confirmation at all.


I was referring specifically to:

"Leliana is alive, no matter what happened at the Urn.  DG has said that you didn't see what you think you saw (or something very similar)."

Maybe you can find this original quote.  I didn't.

It would be easier if they had a search function and dev tracker in this forum, as the SWTOR forum has.


It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.

It would be nice to have actual confirmation one way or the other.

Edit: If she didn't actually die, that would be strange, but those mountains were strange anyway.


Well, they may have confirmed it, and would understandably not want to do so repeatedly; but these random quotes are hard to find later. When other people reference them, they don't include links to sources, and eventually confirmations are written off as myths.

Flemeth can die (but not!), Anders can die (but not!) -- I don't think that making up new magical juju and using mistaken identities to write off what was previously presented as truth is far off the path for the Dragon Age devs.

There are many things I enjoy about this game, but I don't respect this part so much.

#31
ejoslin

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It's just that there is an active flag in the world vault as well about whether Leliana was killed or not. This could just lead to something as simple as an extra line of dialog about the warden as well -- maybe a sad comment about the warden betraying the Chantry or something. Or it could mean that Leliana is actually dead. There's just no way to tell.

And yeh, the problem is with people attributing things to other people without the source is, well, things do get misread at times, and "remembering something" is not the most veracious source of information.

/shrug It's not a big deal to me either way. Hopefully they'll get the import bugs fixed and we'll have a better idea of what is supposed to be in the game and what is not.

#32
erilben

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ejoslin wrote...

It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.


Here it is

#33
ejoslin

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erilben wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.


Here it is


Thank you!  So while he doesn't really confirm anything, he kind of does.  Ok, so that's that.  Very interesting.

#34
Goldens

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erilben wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.


Here it is


Thanks, Erilben.  What an unattractive thread.

#35
GRX Dragon

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Truth be told, DA is in a world of magic and ultimately a fantasy land that obeys no law of logic. It would entirely be possible to kill someone only for them to actually resurrect a la story mode. (Not to mention there are plenty of ways to tell of a way someone could die and come back to life that would even be permissible in a more realistic science-fiction piece of work.)

Those flags mentioned, maybe relate to Leliana saying something else? Like, say, perhaps something akin to vengeance against the warden in DAO.

#36
Alamar2078

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erilben wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.


Here it is


TY for the thread.  It's appreciated.

********************************  Stars so people know I'm not killing the messenger ******************


The tone of that thread just sounded nasty.   And what was the whole "I don't care what you want I'll do what I want thing"???   That sounds like the last way you'd want to address the public.

As far an RPG design goes I would rather developers only give me the decisions that they intend to respect.  If they don't intend to respect a decision then simply don't give it to me.   Now if Nightingale is Lelianna's twin sister / evil twin / good twin / whatever that's fine.  But to have the same character come back from the dead in a game that doesn't do "resurrection" much seems like a stretch.

EDIT:  That sort of reaction [I don't care what you want I'll do what I want] is the kind of reaction that I would fire someone over esp. if the opinion was expressed to the public.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 29 mars 2011 - 10:10 .


#37
Deified Data

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Johnsen1972 wrote...

how did she survive if you kill her personally? :P


You just knocked her out, the Maker's watching over her, it didn't actually happen, alternate universe. Take your pick.

Try "Bioware chose their canon" and you've got your answer. There are a few things like that. One egregious example was the codex explaining that your warden went on to become the Warden Commander of Amaranthine, regardless of their decisions at the end of Origins. Plan on returning to Orzammar, or rebuilding the Circle? No, you must be the Warden Commander.

#38
ejoslin

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Deified Data wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Johnsen1972 wrote...

how did she survive if you kill her personally? :P


You just knocked her out, the Maker's watching over her, it didn't actually happen, alternate universe. Take your pick.

Try "Bioware chose their canon" and you've got your answer. There are a few things like that. One egregious example was the codex explaining that your warden went on to become the Warden Commander of Amaranthine, regardless of their decisions at the end of Origins. Plan on returning to Orzammar, or rebuilding the Circle? No, you must be the Warden Commander.


I actually think that the codex may be bugged.  For my Queen CousCous, her codex looked strange because she first got the standard paragraph saying she became warden commander.  But then she got another paragraph that was worded very similarly (enough so that it looked like a copy paste with just a few words changed) saying how she married King Alistair and ruled the country with him.

Edit: The import flag bug does affect codices.  Zevran's codex is different if he were romanced *if the import bugs are fixed* via mod.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 mars 2011 - 12:18 .


#39
Super_Cat

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The only way to see her definitively die was by killing her at the Urn. However I guess if they come up with an interesting explanation it could be possible she survived due to some magical mojo, lots of weird things were going on in that place.

#40
snackrat

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'Killing' her at the Urn yet coming back sort of makes sense, keeping in mind the Urn's restorative properties. But she only attacks you if the Urn is tainted, and what with death blows, I'm not sure tainted ashes can cure a decapitation.

#41
Stensig

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Why is she in the epilogue anyway? what the idea in that? (btw I've only finished the game once so don't hate me for asking)
Also if what you say is true, its sucks that there aren't much variation in the epilogue -.-' ... but the again, DA is more about action and not that much about lore, especially DA2

#42
Goldens

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Alamar2078 wrote...

erilben wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.


Here it is


TY for the thread.  It's appreciated.

********************************  Stars so people know I'm not killing the messenger ******************


The tone of that thread just sounded nasty.   And what was the whole "I don't care what you want I'll do what I want thing"???   That sounds like the last way you'd want to address the public.

As far an RPG design goes I would rather developers only give me the decisions that they intend to respect.  If they don't intend to respect a decision then simply don't give it to me.   Now if Nightingale is Lelianna's twin sister / evil twin / good twin / whatever that's fine.  But to have the same character come back from the dead in a game that doesn't do "resurrection" much seems like a stretch.

EDIT:  That sort of reaction [I don't care what you want I'll do what I want] is the kind of reaction that I would fire someone over esp. if the opinion was expressed to the public.


Yes. Honestly, if they did it once, I wouldn't care.  But it's getting to be a pattern:

1 - Dragon Age presents us with a situation that looks like death, and they presumably mean us to interpret it that way;
2 - Characters previously shown to us as dead come back in subsequent games, either with no explanation, or with a "but it's magic!" sort of excuse;
3 - When people understandably question this world inconsistency, they get "What happens isn't always going to be what you think should happen. It will, in fact, pretty much always work out the way we think it should..."

Um, okay.  So is the designers' desire here to trick people in their presentation of the story, and then blame those poor dupes for trusting that the story was true as presented?

It's just ridiculous, and not really more or less than that.

#43
Alamar2078

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In the other thread someone may have mentioned a Darth Vader quote. I wonder if it was:
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further. "

#44
Satyricon331

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Goldens wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

erilben wrote...

Here it is


TY for the thread.  It's appreciated.

********************************  Stars so people know I'm not killing the messenger ******************


The tone of that thread just sounded nasty.   And what was the whole "I don't care what you want I'll do what I want thing"???   That sounds like the last way you'd want to address the public.

As far an RPG design goes I would rather developers only give me the decisions that they intend to respect.  If they don't intend to respect a decision then simply don't give it to me.   Now if Nightingale is Lelianna's twin sister / evil twin / good twin / whatever that's fine.  But to have the same character come back from the dead in a game that doesn't do "resurrection" much seems like a stretch.

EDIT:  That sort of reaction [I don't care what you want I'll do what I want] is the kind of reaction that I would fire someone over esp. if the opinion was expressed to the public.


Yes. Honestly, if they did it once, I wouldn't care.  But it's getting to be a pattern:

1 - Dragon Age presents us with a situation that looks like death, and they presumably mean us to interpret it that way;
2 - Characters previously shown to us as dead come back in subsequent games, either with no explanation, or with a "but it's magic!" sort of excuse;
3 - When people understandably question this world inconsistency, they get "What happens isn't always going to be what you think should happen. It will, in fact, pretty much always work out the way we think it should..."

Um, okay.  So is the designers' desire here to trick people in their presentation of the story, and then blame those poor dupes for trusting that the story was true as presented?

It's just ridiculous, and not really more or less than that.


I totally agree with everything both of you said (except for the twin thing... that's just an awful, cliche plot device).  It really cheapens the storyline to have these pseudo-consistent retcons.  I just don't understand how they expect people to take the setting seriously when they take it so lightly themselves.  

I'm hoping it's just a consequence of EA's desire to cash in on DAO's popularity (I recall Laidlaw saying Leliana's popularity was why they made Leliana's Song DLC), and now that there's a quality backlash they'll stop this silly retcon-by-character's-popularity thing.

#45
Kal Choedan

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Goldens wrote...

[snip]

Um, okay.  So is the designers' desire here to trick people in their presentation of the story, and then blame those poor dupes for trusting that the story was true as presented?

It's just ridiculous, and not really more or less than that.


If a writer succesfully "tricks" his audience he has done a good job. The technique is known by various terms but people most often refer to that broad body of "writing tricks" as a "twist".  

It's reasonable to say, "Hey! I thought she was dead! WTF is going on!" and to want some kind of explanation - though there is no guarantee you'll get one; another type of "writing trick" involves leaving as much as possible to the reader's imagination.  That said, in this specific situation, you know it's (at least) a trilogy, there's more than a slim chance that some sort of explanation will be forthcoming.  

Just because you haven't had the explanation yet doesn't mean there isn't going to be one, and demanding one NOW and getting annoyed because you haven't had one yet is... absurd, to be polite about it.  Have you never read a lengthy multi-book serial and been left waiting for the next book in the series, or been watching a TV show that came with some kind of season-end cliffhanger?  This is exactly the same as getting peeved at those writers for not giving you the whole story right there and then.  You just need to have a bit of patience.

Finally, that "it's gonna turn out how we want it" thing.  It's the author's universe.  They can do whatever the hell they like with it - and they are the only one that can.  For all that this is an "interactive storytelling" medium, and sure, one of the hallmarks of quality in the medium is how thoroughly the illusion of choice can be created for the player, ultimately it is the writer and the writer alone* who decides how the story will go, not the player. Bioware is remarkable for generally doing an impressively good job in their games of hiding that illusion of choice and making the player feel like they really have an impact, however superficial that impact might actually turn out later to be.  However good the illusion, though, it is still the author's universe, not the players.

And yes, that means the writer can bring back a character from the dead, if they want to, and they don't even have to tell you why.  Fans who don't have an entitlement complex might be inspired to things like discussion of the possibile explanations, trying to figure out what's going on.  Fans with an entitlement complex, of course, **** out the author for not writing the way they wanted.  Or they write terrible fanfiction (see FanWank at TVTropes.)

*I say writer alone, but I would imagine in this scenario it's a team of writers, and there are other elements of the game design team who necessarily have significant input into the writing process.  Writing for a game is not the same as writing a book.  The principal remains, though.

#46
Satyricon331

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The problem with your post is that good twists make so much sense in retrospect; they make the audience say, "I totally should have seen that coming!" It's very different from a retcon. By your telling, there would be no distinction between a brilliant twist and a deus ex machina. Sure, the playwright can do whatever he wanted, including cornering the protagonist in a hopeless situation it took a completely arbitrary deity to rescue him out of, but it's bad taste to label it "a good job."

#47
Kal Choedan

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Satyricon331 wrote...

The problem with your post is that good twists make so much sense in retrospect; they make the audience say, "I totally should have seen that coming!" It's very different from a retcon. By your telling, there would be no distinction between a brilliant twist and a deus ex machina. Sure, the playwright can do whatever he wanted, including cornering the protagonist in a hopeless situation it took a completely arbitrary deity to rescue him out of, but it's bad taste to label it "a good job."


Even if I completely agree with your criteria, until we see part 3 and whatever explanation might be provided, we aren't in a position to judge whether or not it "makes sense in retrospect."  Right now we're just at the "WTF just happened" stage of it.  Getting upset because we haven't had an explanation yet is impatient; criticising the author for using the technique at all before we've found out how it pans out is just childish.

Like I said, your average fan might be inspired to theorise about the explanation, but it takes some kind of brat with an entitlement complex to insist that that the author somehow got their own story "wrong".

Modifié par Kal Choedan, 31 mars 2011 - 12:26 .


#48
Goldens

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Satyricon331 wrote...

The problem with your post is that good twists make so much sense in retrospect; they make the audience say, "I totally should have seen that coming!" It's very different from a retcon. By your telling, there would be no distinction between a brilliant twist and a deus ex machina. Sure, the playwright can do whatever he wanted, including cornering the protagonist in a hopeless situation it took a completely arbitrary deity to rescue him out of, but it's bad taste to label it "a good job."


Agreed. 

The problems I see are presentation, and public response. 

Presentation: The game shows you a corpse, or tells you of one in an epilogue.  These are presented the same as other deaths.  But then -- a ha, magic/mistaken identity -- not dead.   There's nothing clever about this, so I wouldn't call it as a twist: it's just a re-do (for those versions of the story) with excuses tacked on. 

Public response: David Gaider's responses seem to want to pin the blame for the perception/confusion about inconsistencies on the audience, when it was BioWare's choice to present these stories this way, and then explain them feebly, or not at all. 

We're all aware that writers can do what they want in their stories, but that alone isn't doesn't give the stories quality.  There are a lot of ways to lose world credibility, and this is one of them.

#49
Goldens

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Kal Choedan wrote...

Like I said, your average fan might be inspired to theorise about the explanation, but it takes some kind of brat with an entitlement complex to insist that that the author somehow got their own story "wrong".


Points are never strengthened by insulting those who disagree with you.

For my part, I'm not saying it's "wrong."  I'm saying it's low quality, and diminishes world credibility (and thus my belief and investment in the game).

Modifié par Goldens, 31 mars 2011 - 12:50 .


#50
Kal Choedan

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Goldens wrote...

Kal Choedan wrote...

Like I said, your average fan might be inspired to theorise about the explanation, but it takes some kind of brat with an entitlement complex to insist that that the author somehow got their own story "wrong".


Points are never strengthened by insulting those who disagree with you.

For my part, I'm not saying it's "wrong."  I'm saying it's low quality, and diminishes world credibility (and thus my belief and investment in the game).


And I'm saying it is unreasonable to make that judgement before you have actually finished the story.  If Leliana's apparant resurrection (where applicable) isn't touched on at all in either a DA2 DLC or in DA3 then you'll have a point, but until then passing judgement on the quality of this particular twist is premature.

It may well detract from your own enjoyment of the game, but making an objective value judgment - saying it is of low quality, or has any impact on world credibility (for anyone other than you specifically) - is not reasonable at this stage.

Who exactly am I insulting, by the way?