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[Goldens]

Kal Choedan wrote...

Goldens wrote...

Kal Choedan wrote...

Like I said, your average fan might be inspired to theorise about the explanation, but it takes some kind of brat with an entitlement complex to insist that that the author somehow got their own story "wrong".

Points are never strengthened by insulting those who disagree with you.

For my part, I'm not saying it's "wrong."  I'm saying it's low quality, and diminishes world credibility (and thus my belief and investment in the game).

And I'm saying it is unreasonable to make that judgement before you have actually finished the story.  If Leliana's apparant resurrection (where applicable) isn't touched on at all in either a DA2 DLC or in DA3 then you'll have a point, but until then passing judgement on the quality of this particular twist is premature.

It may well detract from your own enjoyment of the game, but making an objective value judgment - saying it is of low quality, or has any impact on world credibility (for anyone other than you specifically) - is not reasonable at this stage.

As I said in a post or two above, I'm talking about Flemeth (magic) and Anders (mistaken identity) as well as Leliana.  As I also said, I don't care if it's done once, but this is showing as a pattern.   I think this discussion might feel a little more fruitful (for me) if you read my posts before passing your judgment. 

At any rate, I actually don't think judgment on the Leliana faux-death is premature.  I think this has been presented poorly in the story thus far.  Your opinion may differ, but it doesn't invalidate mine. 

[Kal Choedan]

Goldens wrote...

As I said in a post or two above, I'm talking about Flemeth (magic) and Anders (mistaken identity) as well as Leliana.  As I also said, I don't care if it's done once, but this is showing as a pattern.   I think this discussion might feel a little more fruitful (for me) if you read my posts before passing your judgment. 

At any rate, I actually don't think judgment on the Leliana faux-death is premature.  I think this has been presented poorly in the story thus far.  Your opinion may differ, but it doesn't invalidate mine. 

Feh, it's not about invalidating opinions, it's about multiple viewpoints promoting discussion.  What is with all the defensiveness?  Do I really come across as that aggressive?

I think you're making a mistake in lumping Flemeth in with Anders and Leliana.  It was clear from the very beginning that Flemeth was a more significant character than "her" humble appearance would suggest. There were clear hints given in the dialogue - particularly if you played through Witch Hunt as well - that her "death" in DA:O was not final.

Anders and Leliana... is what you're objecting to the feeling that rather than having been planned originally, these characters were rather "brought back" in response to their popularity after the release of DA:O/Awakenings?  I certainly agree that it seems likely, but... writing for a game is often not (much) like writing a novel.  Some decisions may simply not be in the hands of the writers, who may then be left having to "write their way out of a corner".

My point, really, at least specifically regarding Leliana is that while her two brief cameos certainly require some explanation - even for those for whom she was not dead! - we simply haven't had that explanation yet.  I don't think it makes sense to judge it until you've seen what the retcon actually is.  If the writing is good enough it can make up for a lot.  I'll certainly eat my words if Gaider et al let us down with this in DA:3!

[Goldens]

Kal Choedan wrote...
Feh, it's not about invalidating opinions, it's about multiple viewpoints promoting discussion.  What is with all the defensiveness?  Do I really come across as that aggressive?

I think you're making a mistake in lumping Flemeth in with Anders and Leliana.  It was clear from the very beginning that Flemeth was a more significant character than "her" humble appearance would suggest. There were clear hints given in the dialogue - particularly if you played through Witch Hunt as well - that her "death" in DA:O was not final.

Anders and Leliana... is what you're objecting to the feeling that rather than having been planned originally, these characters were rather "brought back" in response to their popularity after the release of DA:O/Awakenings?  I certainly agree that it seems likely, but... writing for a game is often not (much) like writing a novel.  Some decisions may simply not be in the hands of the writers, who may then be left having to "write their way out of a corner".

My point, really, at least specifically regarding Leliana is that while her two brief cameos certainly require some explanation - even for those for whom she was not dead! - we simply haven't had that explanation yet.  I don't think it makes sense to judge it until you've seen what the retcon actually is.  If the writing is good enough it can make up for a lot.  I'll certainly eat my words if Gaider et al let us down with this in DA:3!

Fair point on Flemeth, and I don't care about the one instance.  But speculative fiction, generally, is a playground for making up new laws for the way the world works (magic, etc.).  This rolls along fine, as long as the laws don't contradict each other. The writer sets up the rules; but if she breaks them often enough, the world loses credibility and for me that's already happened here.

It's not just the death take-backs, honestly.  There were other points sprinkled through the story, especially with regard to the Fade and possession, that came across to me as magic being wrung and twisted to suit the plot needs of the moment, rather than following its previously presented "rules."  But I'd need to write something comprehensive to communicate that adequately, and I don't have that sort time or drive for it.  The death retcons are the worst of it for me.

And I'm happy to discuss this stuff, if there's some time for it -- until someone labels different views as "brats with entitlement complexes" and "unreasonable."  At that point I figure the discussion isn't likely to get anywhere interesting.

[Satyricon331]

Kal Choedan wrote...
Feh, it's not about invalidating opinions, it's about multiple viewpoints promoting discussion.  What is with all the defensiveness?  Do I really come across as that aggressive?

Yes, you come across as pretty rude for one of these threads where people are being more sincere and reflective.  You don't need an "entitlement complex" - at all - to have standards for your own reading/media consumption.  I know in this context I'm not entitled to anything (they're more than welcome to write stories that don't interest me - lord knows most authors do so), but it doesn't mean I have to keep buying (in multiple senses) whatever they write.  

In any case, I'll repeat my earlier statement - by your criteria, any successful trick is a good job.  Most of time, the distinction between a successful twist and an unsuccessful one is whether it, while unexpected, follows the story's internal logic (obviously, there are postmodernist and other important exceptions).

I think Goldens is right to bring up Anders, since, unlike Leliana, we do have the ex post explanation.  Some people sent him off with the loony Templar woman, and BW decided they wanted him back because he was so popular, so they made up this rather weak explanation that - oh!  He escaped and found some other Grey Warden (in Ferelden?)!!  Then he proceeded to find another Ser Pounce-a-Lot - all in time to go into the Deep Roads and back to Ferelden before heading to Kirkwall (even though the timeline problems are bad enough relative to a playthrough where the Warden recruits him)!!!  It doesn't really follow the story's internal logic; it's just a contrivance and a little silly.  It's just a stop-gap.

For me, it's serviceable enough, and I'm willing to forgive BW for this type of thing once or twice even though I think it cheapens the setting.  But Anders, unlike Leliana, wasn't decapitated in the problematic playthroughs - he was just a prisoner (afaik, the only way for him to die while you still win DAA was for the epilogue slide to say he died - which as BW has made clear, doesn't count for more than rumor).  People are complaining b/c the only logic behind Leliana's resurrection is external to the story - BW wanted to lure people back to the setting by including a popular character.  

You're saying to wait for the explanation, but BW has shown it's willing to resort to cheap explanations, and the only corpse revivification in the setting is one that doesn't resurrect the person.  If it turns out that BW codes for allowing Leliana to be a demon-possessed corpse for the appropriate imports (magically made to look alive - healed neck scar and all - b/c possession occurred so quickly after death?) then at least it will be consistent, a la the Anders explanation.  But even there, it'd still be strained.  I simply can't think of anything internal to the story's logic so far that would satisfactorily allow the resurrection of a decapitated corpse, and evidently neither can you, judging by your "wait and see" rather than "there's a wealth of explanation" response.  Maybe BW will surprise me.  Maybe I'll win the lottery even though I never bought a ticket (hey, gifts happen).  But more likely either BW will ignore the issue, we'll get something akin to the Anders stop-gap, or they'll introduce something completely post hoc.

Which, you know... ok.  I'll forgive them once more.  But this pattern needs to stop if they want to retain what interest I have left in DA after DA2.

edit: I should add, I think we agree (judging from your posts) that it's more likely than not that these strained twists are b/c of other dep'ts in BW rather than the writers, which is why I'm forgiving.  But my preference fwliw is that EA Marketing or whatever recognize that some of us are genuinely interested in the story of DA, and they shouldn't just view the story as something they can cheapen limitlessly.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 31 mars 2011 - 09:23 .

[Deified Data]

Goldens wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Yeh, there's no comment from anyone who would actually know in that thread.  There just hasn't been any confirmation at all.

I was referring specifically to:

"Leliana is alive, no matter what happened at the Urn.  DG has said that you didn't see what you think you saw (or something very similar)."

Yes, I saw him respond in a similar fashion, to which I reply: My Warden decapitated her in the kill animation. There's really no mistaking that. If she's going to slink away after that, she's going to do so headless.

[kayangelus]

Kal Choedan wrote...

If a writer succesfully "tricks" his audience he has done a good job. The technique is known by various terms but people most often refer to that broad body of "writing tricks" as a "twist". 

Bullocks.

If the writer satisfies the audience with his/her story, (s)he has done a good job. Pulling a twist that doesn't create any loopholes or contradictions, and is consistent with how the audience has been told the universe works tends to be a good twist. Tricking the audience via Dues Ex Machina or "it happened. Deal with it" is actually poor writing unless you are writing your story in a universe where the laws of the universe are constantly changing (although in that case it is a seriously challenge to not make your writing come off as total lack of planning).

Kal Choedan wrote...

Finally, that "it's gonna turn out how we want it" thing.  It's the author's universe.  They can do whatever the hell they like with it - and they are the only one that can.

Yes, they can do whatever they want. And when people feel they did not get what they were paying for/promised when buying the game for $60, they can complain about it. When you buy a game for $60, it is natural to feel you are entitled to a game worth $60. If you are given the impression that you are paying that cash for a game that lets you make decisions and has good story, being told in a single scene that no, you don't get jack **** in the way of decisions aside from something thrown on at the last minute here and there to feel gaps, AND that the story might have some pretty glaringly obvious plot holes, there is nothing wrong with being dissatisfied and possibly feeling ripped off.

You spend your post ripping away at the (extremes of) entitlement crowd, but you seem to be taking the dead opposite extrema here. Just because writers can do whatever they want doesn't mean they are justified in doing whatever they want. I'm not sure which side is right here, but I'm pretty dang certain people at both extrema are wrong.

Kal Choedan wrote...


Bioware is remarkable for generally doing an impressively good job in their games of hiding that illusion of choice and making the player feel like they really have an impact, however superficial that impact might actually turn out later to be.  However good the illusion, though, it is still the author's universe, not the players.

You post this in a thread that, essentially exists because they did the dead opposite of an "impressively good job" at it.

Kal Choedan wrote...

And I'm saying it is unreasonable to make that judgement before you have actually finished the story.

And I'm going to say it is unreasonable to say we can't criticize an aspect of the game until the next installment comes out to see if the problem is even addressed. This isn't a book where the books are targeted to people as a series. They specifically targetted peopel who hand not played the original. Conversely then, you shouldn't need DA:3 to fully enjoy DA:O and DA:2...

Kal Choedan wrote...

It may well detract from your own enjoyment of the game, but making an objective value judgment - saying it is of low quality, or has any impact on world credibility (for anyone other than you specifically) - is not reasonable at this stage.

One of the key points of a good twist that isn't immediately clarified, is that it leaves the audience in suspense, wondering how it had happened. If the audience's response to the twist is dissapointment with the story as a result of the twist, it is a bad twist.

Kal Choedan wrote...

Who exactly am I insulting, by the way?

People you call immature brats?

Modifié par kayangelus, 01 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[Kal Choedan]

I simply can't think of anything internal to the story's logic so far that would satisfactorily allow the resurrection of a decapitated corpse, and evidently neither can you, judging by your "wait and see" rather than "there's a wealth of explanation" response.

Can I not?

• She's the maker incarnate or otherwise posessed by the maker.
• The (corrupt) ashes did it, leading to a later scene where we find out the resurrected Leli is also corrupt.
• An iteration of Flemeth, somehow.
• It's not actually Leli we're seeing (plenty of shapeshifters in Thedas)
• The entire ashes temple doesn't actually exist in the physical universe in the normal sense but is in fact some sort of extremely convincing fade construct moderated by the guardian where normal physical rules don't always apply (disappearing floors, pervy fire that only burns you if you're dressed, dead family stopping by to say Hi and give gifts) Leli didn't die, that's just what the guardian wanted you to see.
• There's "stuff" we don't know yet about the way the DA universe is constructed, and some of that "stuff" is responsible - obscure ancient elven or Tevinter magic, an as yet unrevealed type of fade entity, some sort of semi-dormant old god thing, whatever.
• A wizard did it.

That's just off the top of my head.  Of course each of those is going to have varying levels of... I guess as Goldens put it, "world credibility", and that's both dependent on how well-written it is and the reader's personal tastes. There are literally an infinite number of possible explanations at this point.

But my preference fwliw is that EA Marketing or whatever recognize that some of us are genuinely interested in the story of DA, and they shouldn't just view the story as something they can cheapen limitlessly.

Don't misunderstand my own position -  I am a fan of Bioware and of the DA franchise particularly.  I put a truly monumental number of hours into DA:O.  I was disappointed by DA:2, and in general, I think, agree with you.  Any flaws with these particular bits of writing perhaps affected me less, as in most of my playthroughs, Leli survived, Amaranthine and Vigil's keep and all companions were fine, etc.  Mostly my own complaints are with certain bugs (respecs, isabella/sebastien and the odd broken quest mostly) and the incredibly lazy "lost property" quests, but it's the recycling of quest areas and lack of change over time in the hubs that really upsets me.  Those are my bugbears.

I think that looking at the game as a whole, and taking these particular bits of writing as just further evidence of the game's problems makes sense and I'm with you to a point.  Where I disagree is picking specifically on the Leliana "resurrection" thing (which is what this thread was originally about and why I hopped into it) as a major example of lazy or otherwise just poor writing.  It was just two brief static cameos, with the second coming after the game had finished.  It seemed like teaser material for DA3 to me.  Right now, all we know is that Leli seems to be back and is now the white Divine's right hand, no less!  We don't know why, or how, or even how recently this happened. "WTF is going on, how did her head get back on" etc are all perfectly reasonable reactions.  "This is an example of poor writing" is not!

I'm not, as keyangelus suggested, saying that you can't criticise anything until you've seen everything - hindsight often does give perspective, but that's not my point. I am talking about this one specific thing.  All we know at the moment is that Leli appears to be back.  Not a hint of how or why or even when has yet been dropped.  I don't think it makes sense to criticise the writing when for all practical purposes as far as this particular story thread goes, there simply hasn't been any yet!  With no explanation at all yet available to criticise, all that's left is the apparant "fact" of Leli's return, and if that's all that's being criticised then we are basically back to telling the author they are writing their story "wrong".

If Gaider had simply said something like, "There's more going on here than you guys know about yet, I can't tell you any more without giving the game away.  Leli has had an... interesting time, post-DA:O (especially if she used to be dead!)" I strongly suspect most of the people upset with this would be much happier, which makes this more about bad PR than about bad writing.

kayangelus wrote...

Kal Choedan wrote...

Who exactly am I insulting, by the way?

People you call immature brats?

Brats with an entitlement complex, thank you very much.  So  who was I insulting?  I stated my opinion that "it takes... [a] brat with an entitlement complex to insist that the author somehow got their own story "wrong"", and I continue to hold that opinion. *shrug*

EDIT: Sorry, I borked the attributions in editing.  Hope no-one minds, I've just left the broken ones as anonymous.

Modifié par Kal Choedan, 01 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[Satyricon331]

Kal Choedan wrote...

I simply can't think of anything internal to the story's logic so far that would satisfactorily allow the resurrection of a decapitated corpse, and evidently neither can you, judging by your "wait and see" rather than "there's a wealth of explanation" response.

Can I not?

• She's the maker incarnate or otherwise posessed by the maker.
• The (corrupt) ashes did it, leading to a later scene where we find out the resurrected Leli is also corrupt.
• An iteration of Flemeth, somehow.
• It's not actually Leli we're seeing (plenty of shapeshifters in Thedas)
• The entire ashes temple doesn't actually exist in the physical universe in the normal sense but is in fact some sort of extremely convincing fade construct moderated by the guardian where normal physical rules don't always apply (disappearing floors, pervy fire that only burns you if you're dressed, dead family stopping by to say Hi and give gifts)
• There's "stuff" we don't know yet about the way the DA universe is constructed, and some of that "stuff" is responsible - obscure ancient elven or Tevinter magic, an as yet unrevealed type of fade entity, some sort of semi-dormant old god thing, whatever.
• A wizard did it.

That's just off the top of my head.  Of course each of those is going to have varying levels of... I guess as Goldens put it, "world credibility", and that's both dependent on how well-written it is and the reader's personal tastes. There are literally an infinite number of possible explanations at this point.

Well, as I said, I couldn't think of anything satisfactory, and with apologies, I wouldn't really find those suggestions satisfactory. 

The only one that I hadn't already seen on the boards or hadn't already had occur to me was your Fade idea.  It's creative, and I'd like it, except it leaves the problem that the you take the ashes physically from the setting.  It's clear the Veil is weak in the area, but it's seems like a stretch since it doesn't seem to follow the logic of the lore about the Fade the story's presented so far.  It kind of illustrates my point; it would leave the feeling that they changed the lore and the possibilities about the Fade to accommodate their desire for Leliana-driven sales, rather than developed the story's internal logic in a way that naturally lead to a resurrection twist.  

But even if something that turns out to be central to the setting is behind her return, it would always leave the feeling that they made that lore simply to explain away the discrepancy, which is exactly why the Leliana issue seems poorly written imo.  Personally, I'd prefer them to come out and say they made an oversight - I'm very willing to forgive human frailties, being human myself unfortunately - than to introduce some stop-gap.  One reason is b/c I think consistency issues are much more important in fantasy settings, where magic already creates such an appearance of arbitrariness.

I'll add, we seem to agree on much, but overall it seems you simply have more faith than I do.  If for some reason, I thought the Leliana resurrection idea came entirely from the writers, then perhaps I'd feel (a bit) less unreceptive to the event.  If they had planned this whole thing from the start, then I'd have preferred them to have situated it better so it wouldn't scream "fanservice cash-in!" so loudly.  If EA or whoever pushed the writers in this direction, then I don't appreciate it. 

I'll also mention (in case anyone was wondering) that the length of these posts probably makes it seem like the issue matters to me much more than it does.  I hate retcons, but they haven't happened so badly in DA yet that it matters a great deal to me.  It's really only significant b/c DA2 has attenuated my interest sufficiently that these relatively minor issues are more likely to be pivotal.

[Knightly_BW]

Alamar2078 wrote...

erilben wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It would be nice to see the original quote.  I've seen all sorts of people say, "David Gaider says such-and-such" when actually, nothing of the sort was said.

Here it is

TY for the thread.  It's appreciated.

********************************  Stars so people know I'm not killing the messenger ******************


The tone of that thread just sounded nasty.   And what was the whole "I don't care what you want I'll do what I want thing"???   That sounds like the last way you'd want to address the public.

As far an RPG design goes I would rather developers only give me the decisions that they intend to respect.  If they don't intend to respect a decision then simply don't give it to me.   Now if Nightingale is Lelianna's twin sister / evil twin / good twin / whatever that's fine.  But to have the same character come back from the dead in a game that doesn't do "resurrection" much seems like a stretch.

EDIT:  That sort of reaction [I don't care what you want I'll do what I want] is the kind of reaction that I would fire someone over esp. if the opinion was expressed to the public.

Yeah I didn't like what I read at all, too. Reaction from the lead writer or any writer should be more ethical/professional. It's plainly dumb to say "we did it, suck it up and shut up". I can expect that reaction from my 10 y.o. nephew but not a professional writer.

While we are at it I think while doing DA 2, devs gave in Fangirl/Fanboy squee too much value. All favorite characters should be in game mentality made me think it's desinged to appease that crowd.

I am not really mind Leliana's appearance at all. As we have a big boulder on our heads named Anders.

On the other hand Leliana doesn't really "must be" character in last cinematic. Do you love the game because you see Leliana on last cinematic?

In case of Anders instead of writing a new character they dismissed a whole game they sold(which was more horrible than NWN:StoU which at least had Deekin in it)  and go with fan girl wave. Even didn't bother to came up with an excuse if Anders didn't recruited to wardens at all.

Better shut up before I say something I regret.

[Kal Choedan]

Satyricon331 wrote...

The only one that I hadn't already seen on the boards or hadn't already had occur to me was your Fade idea.  It's creative, and I'd like it, except it leaves the problem that the you take the ashes physically from the setting.

Also any loot you take with you, and what happens with pilgrims visiting in the future.  But I figure if the guardian can warp reality sufficient to make your dead father (human noble origin) appear to you and give you a high quality necklace as a gift, it's not that much of a stretch to let you physically take a sample of the ashes away with you, or to let future pilgrims see... whatever.  Certainly not that much of a stretch to think the guardian could create a totally convincing illusion of Leliana's death for whatever Andraste-inspired reasons.

Satyricon331 wrote...

I'll add, we seem to agree on much, but overall it seems you simply have more faith than I do.  If for some reason, I thought the Leliana resurrection idea came entirely from the writers, then perhaps I'd feel (a bit) less unreceptive to the event.  If they had planned this whole thing from the start, then I'd have preferred them to have situated it better so it wouldn't scream "fanservice cash-in!" so loudly.  If EA or whoever pushed the writers in this direction, then I don't appreciate it. 

I'm not happy about the situation with DA2 overall, and as I've indicated, like you I also suspect that Leliana's "resurrection" was not planned from the start. Fanservice cash-in is certainly a distinct possibility, particularly given comments about the Leliana DLC, but I would imagine there are probably elements of the writers simply really liking the character and wanting to reuse her.  Doubtless they regret having made her death a possibility in DA1  I suspect the truth is some mix of the two.

My point really is that we simply haven't yet seen their explanation for it yet, so it's just too early to judge this one.  Whatever reasons might ultimately have motivated it, Leliana is back.  It might turn out to be an obvious, shoehorned in retcon, it might turn out to be an extremely satisfying bit of storytelling.  We simply don't know yet.  It's not so much that I have faith - I'm just as braced for disappointment as I am for satisfaction - more that I don't think there is sufficient data to make a judgement yet and I'm willing to wait until there is.

Hell if in 5 minutes I can come up with something that is anywhere near even almost adequate as an explanation, a professional writer ought to be able to come up with something truly spectacular. Gaider et al haven't done too badly so far, really - I don't think any of us would be here having this conversation if we hadn't truly enjoyed some of the writing in DA to date. Eh... maybe I do have a little faith

Sorry if I came across as overly aggressive earlier; there have been quite a few posts on this subject which have basically amounted to "I killed Leli in my game so you aren't allowed to bring her back", an attitude which I think stinks, and I think I let that come over too strongly.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

I think the devs mentioned that you didn't kill her only left her for dead.

[kayangelus]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

I think the devs mentioned that you didn't kill her only left her for dead.

Which doesn't help anything about the complaints that you aren't getting any choices in the universe. ^^

[Satyricon331]

Kal Choedan wrote...
Also any loot you take with you, and what happens with pilgrims visiting in the future.  But I figure if the guardian can warp reality sufficient to make your dead father (human noble origin) appear to you and give you a high quality necklace as a gift, it's not that much of a stretch to let you physically take a sample of the ashes away with you, or to let future pilgrims see... whatever.  Certainly not that much of a stretch to think the guardian could create a totally convincing illusion of Leliana's death for whatever Andraste-inspired reasons.

Wow, it's been so long I don't even remember any loot.  I remember the floor puzzle, the chamber with the spirits that pose those riddles, the battle against your doppleganger spirits, and the nudist fire.  Although I doubt it's actually your father... 

It's funny you mention illusion magic; that's another explanation I've seen, and although on the merits it might not be as bad as "a wizard did it," I think it's my least favorite option.  Actually, it's much the same as the wizard-did-it explanation, since it introduces a whole new line of magic we didn't have before just to explain what happened.  I'd harbor a special hatred for an illusion-magic explanation b/c I missed my Mislead spell so much in DA, and they didn't give it to us then, but that's beside the point.  

You say it could be a satisfying storytelling, but it's set up so any explanation they give is going to smack of ad hockery, which is why it seems like bad writing (and I say "bad writing" recognizing it's not the writers' fault, although I do wonder why they brought her back for everyone instead of just the people who didn't dislike her enough to kill her, as for Zevran (if there's a resources-based explanation there then again it's not their fault)).  I mean, as I said, I'm willing to let it go again, but I really want this pattern to stop, and whoever in EA is pushing them to do these awkward returns should respect the story more.

Sorry if I came across as overly aggressive earlier...

No worries.  We all have those moments.

[Eswyn]

so is it just me or did Bioware fail this whole kill-Leliana-in-Origins-and-stil-show-her-pretty-face-in-Dragon-Age-2-even-if-you-killed-burned-and-burid-the-ashe-thing?

[papality]

Johnsen1972 wrote...

How did she survive if you kill her personally?

That wouldnt have happend in Mass Effect...

well mass effect wasnt made by the teenage children of the real devs

/rimshot

[Lumikki]

Why?

My DAO import Leliana and Wynne are both alive and I did not see them in DA2 at all. Only character what I did see was Zevran and he should have been dead in my import, short of. Damm liar.

[KingDan97]

Okay, I dug around the internet for a while and managed to come across this:

It would appear that she didn't really die, or if she did then the power of Andraste within the Urn room led to her being restored because of the "Maker's Will". Call it a retcon if you please, but I could see the argument being made for this explanation, especially if she'll have major repercussions within the next game/DLC. This could make the choice to end her have much more interesting repercussions when the Warden ends up playing back into the story(I hope).

Modifié par KingDan97, 07 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[Hjkor]

At least we got evidence for Maker's existence in the series, since I don't think any healer in the game could resurrect someone who has her head cut off with a 360 degrees sword spin.

[sloppywood]

Yeah, but the head cut is a random animation. In all honest, she's a bard...couldn't she just lay on the ground after the final blow and still be alive? Once the Warden is gone, she could have crawled over to the descrated ashes and taken some or perhaps as she says, The Maker's Will kept her alive for some reason.