213 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Loghain did not have anything to do with the Cousland massacre, per David Gaider here in the forums.

I also have to say that Cailan can hardly be called blameless for how he ended up. It wasn't Loghain who wanted him on the front lines, Cailan was considering a marriage alliance with Orlais, and had initiated an extremely foolish military alliance which was known at the time of Ostagar. The Origins DLCs and DA2 bear out some of Loghain's paranoia, in fact. It wouldn't have been the first time in Thedas history that Orlais used a Blight as pretext to occupy other countries.

Well I'm just going from Nathaniel's unfounded accusation that the Couslands were going to sell Ferelden out to the Orlesians, and the fact that Howe is Loghain's right hand man. The fact that we need Word of God to tell us Loghain was uninvolved just confirms that there's not sufficient evidence in-game to prove him innocent.

Cailan's position in the battle is irrelevent to Loghain's plan. Ostagar is completely overrun, so Cailan would've died regardless of where he was, unless he was lucky enough to be with Loghain's militia. We'll never know now whether Orlais could be trusted or not, because Loghain ****ed it up for everybody.

And in any case, trusting Loghain is at least as retarded as trusting Orlais. Loghain has a history of betraying Maric, along with various douchery, as shown in the prequel novels. Flemeth even told Maric outright not to trust Loghain. He's not a nice man who got set in his ways, he was always an absolute ****.

[Aldandil]

I can see why the decision could seem similar: Both of them have taken ruthless action to further their own extremist causes (Freedom of mages or keeping Ferelden free from Orlesians). Both of them definitely deserve death, but there's a Gandalf quote rumbling around in the back of my head which prevents me from quickly deciding to kill either of them.

I'd say it comes down to role-playing. My first Warden was trying to stop the Blight by any means possible (which meant that mages were preferable to templars (on paper at least), Branka was preferable to Caridin, etc.), so not killing a great general seemed like a good idea, when the only gain would be to get vengeance. He was certainly surprised about the way Alistair reacted, but that was Alistair's business). My first Hawke was a bit more emotional and not really friends with Anders, so Anders wasn't as lucky as Loghain.

I wouldn't say killing either is the obvious choice, though.

[VheodTh]

I see no similarities whatsoever.

Loghain did not think he was doing "the right thing" or "a good thing" like Anders did believe. When you have those cutscenes where Loghain says all he has done is to secure fereldens independence or that he did the right think, those are just pure lies. He had planned to steal the throne from cailan and the cutscene before the battle of ostagar shows how satisfied Loghain is about his treachery and he says : "yes... a glorious moment for us all.. (BWHAHAHAHA)".

And if you think about Anders. He is not happy about what he "had to do" and he clearly believed it was the only way. He even GLADLY gave up his own life for what he did.

Modifié par VheodTh, 08 avril 2011 - 07:08 .

[Madkipz]

I can forgive Loghain alot easier.
His actions where birthed by ignorance towards why the Grey Wardens were needed, and at the time of the betrayal it was not believed to be a true blight because the darkspawn only did minor skirmishes that where easily beaten. '
While the Wardens insisted it was a blight they never say to anyone outside the order how they know it is one.
They also wanted help from the Orlesian wardens.
King Cailan was also being a busybuddy with the empress.

Im quite sure based on these presumtions many people with Loghains experiences during the Orlesian occupation would betray their king at one moment or another.

Loghain is quite the bro if you do not execute him, getting to know him by making the man a Grey warden is my best decition in the world.
the opposing side, Alistair on the other hand just wants revenge. He is so fixated and blinded by grief over loss for his father figure that all he sees, feels and tastes at that moment is revenge. Nothing Loghain had done demands he die at the hand of a whiny brat who cant see past his own nose.

Anyone taking an objective standpoint would see this and give Loghain the chance of redemption by becoming a grey warden. To kill him would be a giant waste of his potential.

Anders on the other hand is the most ****ty brat in the world.
Anders takes up the mage cause for the sake of the mages who get misstreated and abused. While the cause is good it does not justify harming innocents or using violent methods to achieve these goals.

It only serves as a blow towards other mages. It only serves to make everyone who are not mages side with the templars.

IT ONLY SERVES AS TO TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING MAGES HAVE WORKED FOR EVER SINCE THE PREVIOUS RITES OF ANNULLMENT.

If mages want to be treated as proper individuals they will have to act like true servants of the maker.
They will have to help the templars and help manage their own apprentices. They will have to help root out blood mages, they will have to sacrifice and serve so that the future generations of mages benefit from the good will earned troughout the years, and once this is in place they will have to cooperate with templars and negotiate for more freedom and the right to hunt their own with templar escorte or entourage.

When Anders destroyed the chantry Orsino and the other Circles had two options, He could put every mages head on the chopping block by assisting in the annullment or choose death by templar hand. Because death would be inevidable either way.

As is seen when you attack the circle and some mages surrender. Their lives are spared by Cullen who obeys the champion. In similar fashion Meredith would probably have been viewed as insane by her own earlier if she was slaugthering mages who willingly submitted in the face of death.

Only malificar would turn magic against his fellow peers when faced with death. A proper mage would embrace it.

Modifié par Madkipz, 08 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...
Well I'm just going from Nathaniel's unfounded accusation that the Couslands were going to sell Ferelden out to the Orlesians, and the fact that Howe is Loghain's right hand man. The fact that we need Word of God to tell us Loghain was uninvolved just confirms that there's not sufficient evidence in-game to prove him innocent.

Well, now you know.

Cailan's position in the battle is irrelevent to Loghain's plan. Ostagar is completely overrun, so Cailan would've died regardless of where he was, unless he was lucky enough to be with Loghain's militia. We'll never know now whether Orlais could be trusted or not, because Loghain ****ed it up for everybody.

We can surmise based on hints that there are at least elements of Orlesian nobility and military who want Ferelden back.  You could as easily say we'll never know because Loghain made sure a re-occupation didn't happen, still less a marriage alliance.

And in any case, trusting Loghain is at least as retarded as trusting Orlais. Loghain has a history of betraying Maric, along with various douchery, as shown in the prequel novels. Flemeth even told Maric outright not to trust Loghain. He's not a nice man who got set in his ways, he was always an absolute ****.

Manipulating yes, as with Katriel- betraying, not that I can see.  And of course Flemeth never tries to manipulate anyone. 

Regardless, Loghain's motive of defending his homeland is more sympathetic to me than Anders wanting to start a world revolution.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 02:46 .

[Anariel Theirin]

I kill Loghain, every time, even though I think he's an incredible character. I admit to respecting his character, but not necessarily liking him, the first time I played through Origins. But once I read the books, I learned to love Loghain. He's so well-written and he is who he is because of what he's seen in his life. I definitely respect where he's coming from, even if I don't agree with him.

But the fact remains that he lied to everyone, betrayed Cailan, and slandered the Gray Warden name. Even though he felt he was doing it for the right reasons, reasons which I can somewhat understand, I can't allow him to live. He's far too dangerous alive. (Also, it's worth noting that I just can't ever betray Alistair like that. I have a deep sense of loyalty to Alistair and the Gray Wardens, no matter what type of character I play through on. I can't seem to get away from it!)

Anders, on the other hand, I allowed to live. While some of my motivation was because he was my healer, I actually felt incredibly sorry for him. I actually *don't* respect Anders, and I just think he's a crazy mage who needs some serious help. For that reason, I was able to look past his betrayal and trickery leading up to the event, and felt that my Hawke would be taking a protective stance toward him, trying to help him get rid of Justice/Vengeance so that he might become more himself again. I feel more sad for him than angry at him, even though he annoyed the hell out of me.

I just can't compare Loghain to Anders. The decision might be similar, but they are two very different men. Loghain is in no way insane. He's a strong, cunning man who does what he does because he feels he must in order to protect Ferelden. I think he truly cares about Ferelden, and just has a very disjointed way of going about protecting it, perhaps blinded by his own (understandable) hatred of Orlais. Anders, I think, is totally corrupt, and can't control it. Justice/Vengeance has turned him into something he actually isn't. I'm not saying he'd have never wanted to help mages if not for the possession thing, but I don't believe that Anders alone would have gone to such extreme lengths.

In short, Loghain is in full possession of himself, and is just a conniving (but brilliant) bastard. Anders is insane and being controlled by the same type of thing that makes people fear mages in the first place. That's my interpretation, anyway!

[Anariel Theirin]

Madkipz wrote...

Alistair on the other hand just wants revenge. He is so fixated and blinded by grief over loss for his father figure that all he sees, feels and tastes at that moment is revenge. Nothing Loghain had done demands he die at the hand of a whiny brat who cant see past his own nose.

I have to respectfully disagree here.  Don't get me wrong, I love Loghain, but his actions in Origins are despicable.  Whether he did it all for the good of Ferelden is somewhat of a moot point.  He lied to everyone, betrayed Cailan, slandered the  Wardens (essentially demanding their deaths as well), and his actions directly caused the deaths of many at Ostagar.  He did so unapologetically, and seemingly without any hesitation.

I think there are two personality traits in Alistair that overshadow all else:  compassion, and honor.  Loghain, for all his awesomeness, acted very dishonorably.  Alistair has a strong sense in this, and for that, Loghain's death is justice, not revenge.  (Haha, justice and vengeance!)  I have a lot of respect for Alistair in that he won't serve beside Loghain as a Warden.  It's not because he's whiny, it's because if Loghain is a Warden, the Wardens are not honorable any longer in Alistair's eyes (and I agree with him).  Alistair doesn't want to be a part of something like that.  It would break his heart, because this is the first place in his life he considers home (he says that specifically early in the game).  At this point, you've spent the entire game fighting by Alistair's side to get those treaties fulfilled, working toward this point at the Landsmeet, and then to tell him he has to suck it up and fight beside the jerk who caused all this in the first place?  I just couldn't do it.  I can understand wanting to spare Loghain, but I can't understand hating Alistair for his reaction to it.  I thought it was completely justified.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

While I killed them both I actually had a more difficult time choosing to kill Loghain, which is odd because I liked Anders for most of the game. (Despite is radical shifts in voice, personality and sexual orientation).

I guess with Loghain I was less outraged by his treachery because I didn't really know him. With Anders I'd gotten to like him quite a lot so when he murdered an entire building full of innocent people just to start a war I really didn't feel like he deserved anything but execution. It was also because of the fact that my Hawke was being roleplayed like somebody who always tried to find a compromise first, so when Anders undid all my work I was pissed. I knew he made his position pretty clear before hand, but I was still hoping there would be a better way, especially since his experience as an abomination sort of eroded his moral high ground in my mind.

[PantheraOnca]

Madkipz wrote...

I can forgive Loghain alot easier.
His actions where birthed by ignorance towards why the Grey Wardens were needed, and at the time of the betrayal it was not believed to be a true blight because the darkspawn only did minor skirmishes that where easily beaten. '
While the Wardens insisted it was a blight they never say to anyone outside the order how they know it is one.

Yes. Don't trust the specialist in dealing with a problem that there is a problem.

They also wanted help from the Orlesian wardens.

I'm sorry they wanted reinforcements for a world-shattering event?

King Cailan was also being a busybuddy with the empress.

You mean trying to strengthen Ferelden by diplomacy?

Im quite sure based on these presumtions many people with Loghains experiences during the Orlesian occupation would betray their king at one moment or another.

No.

Loghain on the other hand just wants revenge. He is so fixated and blinded by grief over loss for his father that all he sees, feels and tastes since some 30-odd years ago is revenge. Everything Loghain had done demands he die at the hand of a person who sees Loghain for what he is.

Anyone taking an objective standpoint would see this and give Loghain a decapitation. To keep him alive would be a giant waste of Ferelden's air.

Loghain is the most whiny traitor in the world.
Loghain takes up the Ferelden cause for the sake of the revenge. While the cause is good it does not justify harming innocents or using violent methods to achieve these goals.

I need to pause my reconstruction here to point out a seeming contradiction in your reasoning:

While the cause is good it does not justify harming innocents or using violent methods to achieve these goals.

So Loghain's use of violance, treachery and downright douchey-ness is ok, but Anders' isn't? I think you need to expand on this further.

Now on with our regularly scheduled program:

It only serves as a blow towards Ferelden. It only serves to make everyone who are not Loghain's men side with Eamon.

IT ONLY SERVES AS TO TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING FERELDEN HAS WORKED FOR EVER SINCE THE PREVIOUS THEIRIN WAS ON THE THRONE.

/snip

Only a coward would turn his army away from his fellow countrymen when faced with death. A proper Ferelden would embrace it.

Mkay. In case it didn't come through, you can't say Loghain was a bro about what he did then say Anders isn't. They both did retarded and evil **** and they both need to die.

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...

Well now you now

Regardless, it doesn't speak well of him. If he wasn't directly involved, there's no possible way he couldn't have heard about it, but he went ahead and promoted Howe anyway. Giving the position of right-hand man to an individual who has recently demonstrated a willingness to slaughter allies is not a sound or even sane decision. Either he recognizes these traits as qualities he shares, and enjoys having a fellow sadistic **** around, or he's a criminally poor judge of character.

We can surmise based on hints that there are at least elements of Orlesian nobility and military who want Ferelden back.  You could as easily say we'll never know because Loghain made sure a re-occupation didn't happen, still less a marriage alliance.

But Empress Celene is not one of them. In 2 she is working with Alistair to keep the peace. From a strategical standpoint, Loghain would've been foolish to prevent a marriage alliance. If Celene was willing to invite Cailan into her life in a legally binding way (not to mention her bed), odds are invasion wasn't at the front of her mind, unless she's just kinky that way.

Marrying Celene would've strengthened Ferelden while Orlais would gain no benefit. Yes, Celene becomes joint ruler of Ferelden, but what people seem to be missing is that Cailan would be the joint ruler of Orlais. Indeed any nobles that wanted to invade Ferelden, or spoke openly against Cailan, would likely find themselves stripped of their power in short order.

If Anora really is barren, as rumour dictates, then that's just another benefit for both countries. An heir would cement the peace between them and even if Ferelden did get absorbed into Orlais, it would be in a non-violent, non-oppressive way. And if the Fereldens themselves were opposed to the idea, they could call a Landsmeet and boot Cailan off the throne. The nobility doesn't need Loghain to hold their hand every step of the way. Indeed, he seems to only make things worse

Manipulating yes, as with Katriel- betraying, not that I can see.  And of course Flemeth never tries to manipulate anyone. 

Regardless, Loghain's motive of defending his homeland is more sympathetic to me than Anders wanting to start a world revolution.

Has Flemeth tried to manipulate anyone? She has yet to lie or trick anyone that I've seen. Her nature is mysterious and one should be wary, but if she does have some grand scheme, it's extremely well hidden. Considering how much she is feared, she's been nothing but helpful to the Warden and Hawke. When you think about it, given all she did for you in Origins, going back to kill her seems kind of rude. But I do it anyway.

Loghain is defending his homeland from a threat that is, if not imaginary, then at the very least nowhere near as critical as his diseased mind imagines. Anders is rebelling against a system that is clearly shown to be unjust and oppressive, with no hope for compromise because the mages have no power and no leverage. He is acting in a rational manner, Loghain is not. But it's not my place to tell you what you should or should not find sympathetic.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 avril 2011 - 05:24 .

[PlumPaul93]

I guess It's similar although to me killing loghain is an easy choice since he got the rest of the grey wardens and almost you killed, while trying to stop you from stopping him, anders just murders hundreds of people who you don't directly know. I'll probably kill anders in my main playthough but It's obvious killing loghain was an easier decision, especially since you didn't have him as a companion like with anders.

[ReallyRue]

With Alistair and Sebastian being the equivalent of each other. I'm sure more people are forgiving of Alistair's reaction there compared to Sebastian's.

I really struggled with both of these decisions, although sparing Loghain made pragmatic sense, whilst sparing Anders was mostly a friendship/forgiveness/whatever thing. It was definitely a difficult choice on both counts.

[Madkipz]

Anariel Theirin wrote...

Madkipz wrote...

Alistair on the other hand just wants revenge. He is so fixated and blinded by grief over loss for his father figure that all he sees, feels and tastes at that moment is revenge. Nothing Loghain had done demands he die at the hand of a whiny brat who cant see past his own nose.

I have to respectfully disagree here.  Don't get me wrong, I love Loghain, but his actions in Origins are despicable.  Whether he did it all for the good of Ferelden is somewhat of a moot point.  He lied to everyone, betrayed Cailan, slandered the  Wardens (essentially demanding their deaths as well), and his actions directly caused the deaths of many at Ostagar.  He did so unapologetically, and seemingly without any hesitation.

I think there are two personality traits in Alistair that overshadow all else:  compassion, and honor.  Loghain, for all his awesomeness, acted very dishonorably.  Alistair has a strong sense in this, and for that, Loghain's death is justice, not revenge.  (Haha, justice and vengeance!)  I have a lot of respect for Alistair in that he won't serve beside Loghain as a Warden.  It's not because he's whiny, it's because if Loghain is a Warden, the Wardens are not honorable any longer in Alistair's eyes (and I agree with him).  Alistair doesn't want to be a part of something like that.  It would break his heart, because this is the first place in his life he considers home (he says that specifically early in the game).  At this point, you've spent the entire game fighting by Alistair's side to get those treaties fulfilled, working toward this point at the Landsmeet, and then to tell him he has to suck it up and fight beside the jerk who caused all this in the first place?  I just couldn't do it.  I can understand wanting to spare Loghain, but I can't understand hating Alistair for his reaction to it.  I thought it was completely justified.

So because the most useless grey warden of all time holds the order up to ideals it never had in the first place we should bow to his whims? As far as the order is concerned it is a net gain in the sum of:

+1 Ferelden general with strategic insight. +1 morale boost for the ferelden people
-1 useless crybaby grey warden / templar.

Ryordan follows the same logic, Alistair does not have the charisma nor capability to draw the people nor are loghains crimes large enough to have him beheaded in the landsmeet if him being alive can serve some greater purpose. 

Both as City elf (manslaughter) and in both dwarf origins (exiled for killing brother / defiling the proving) you get to taste of what people who join the order truly are. Dead men who traded in their deaths for a 15 - 30 year long get out of jail free card in servitude to a greater cause.

So Loghain's use of violance, treachery and downright douchey-ness is
ok, but Anders' isn't? I think you need to expand on this further.

Loghains motives are in the right place, with some direction he is a valuable asset towards defeating the blight. At the time of the landsmeet for every action he has done he deserves to go trough the joining. In a sense by becoming a grey warden everything he previously did is forgiven. Because of the blight this one man gets a chance at the joining.

Anders is already a warden (on the run from his order no less), the blight is ended and the kiddiegloves are off. He deserves death. For forsaking his position within the wardens, for getting mixed in politics, for destroying everything mages have fought for. 

There is no greater cause or need for him to be alive and if i could tear out his soul and put him into a chamber for infinite years of torment and the maker deemed it so i would put the man in it. For Anders one death is not enough.

Modifié par Madkipz, 08 avril 2011 - 06:01 .

[Statulos]

Auora wrote...

Asdara wrote...

I was thinking a bit about Loghain today and Anders. I tried to play Anders's situation from different angles and I'm very interested in him, but I didn't give Loghain a chance until someone around here, KnightsofPhoenix I think was the name, with a Gargoyles avatar anyway, talked me into it by proxy. Changed my views on a lot of things within the game. So I played Anders a bunch of ways because you're right their choices are both on a very large scale and on different extremes.

The book, Stolen Throne, also gives you a completely different impression of Loghain. It makes it almost hard to kill him, as he was a very likable character in the book.

Having more of an understanding for any character will likley change your judgement of them if they do something bad.

Loghain was very scared of the wardens for good reasons. The problem is, the profecy of the Blight given to King Maric (thus, making sense of him welcoming the wardens again) could not be revealed to Loghain or anyone, so what we finaly get is a massive case of uncommunication. Like you said, Loghain had legit reasons to do what he did.

Anders, well, he was very aware of what he was doing and why, and that´s not the case of Loghain who lacked a lot of information.

Modifié par Statulos, 08 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[b09boy]

Not at all.

Loghain was an antagonist and one or two of his decisions truly were deplorable.  But with the knowledge he had, his decisions were actually incredibly sound and his supposed insane paranoia actually turns out to be very far from insane.  As well, Loghain is not power-hungry.  He's never been power hungry.  In fact, he's been described as uncomfortable with the idea of gaining power.  Hell, he's actually extremely relieved when you cast him out of power as it is no longer his burden to bear.  But he is a strict nationalist who will protect his country at all costs.

In any case, by the end, Loghain is sorry for the mistakes he made (abandoning Cailan not being one of them - by all rights, this actually was good for multiple reasons, even in hindsight).  He has regrets which he would like to make ammends for and if spared he does seek redemption and gives himself fully over to the Grey Wardens.

Anders, on the other hand, is an idiot.  His reaoning is not sound and in fact largely goes to prove why people should fear mages.  His decision kills innocents and forces the killing of many more around the world.  More, he is not apologetic for what he has done.  If he could do things differently, he'd refuse.  More, there's nothing to say he won't commit such atrocities again in the future.  Just a complete moron.  Anders to me has to die because he's not only a danger to innocent people who have nothing to do with his conflict, but to the very people he's attempting to help save just be continuing to live.

[JesterPsychotica]

Asperius wrote...

Not that hard decision for me actually.

I usually kill them. Loghain have little upper hand if I would want to ****** Alistair so he can live.

Also Loghain more remind me of Meredith, both are went crazy with immense phobia.

Anders is just a stupid terrorist who should be killed by the first moment he made that stupid remark about dying templar in Awakenings. Jowan and Anders destined to die an every occasion.

I can understand your argument against Anders, but Jowan? 

His initial deeds were done hastily and he was acting rashly because of his love for Lily. His poisoning of the Arl however was at the behest of Loghain and Howe. He was told that if he did this, Loghain would make peace with the Circle for him. In the end however, he was smart enough to not hold a grudge, accepted what he did was wrong and that he shouldn't of done it, and accepted any punishment that the Arl (or Warden) deemed fitting. Unlike Anders or Loghain, who sought some kind of glory/refused to accept they were wrong in their actions- he was clearly ashamed for what he had done.

[Plaintiff]

Madkipz wrote...

Anariel Theirin wrote...

Madkipz wrote...

Alistair on the other hand just wants revenge. He is so fixated and blinded by grief over loss for his father figure that all he sees, feels and tastes at that moment is revenge. Nothing Loghain had done demands he die at the hand of a whiny brat who cant see past his own nose.

I have to respectfully disagree here.  Don't get me wrong, I love Loghain, but his actions in Origins are despicable.  Whether he did it all for the good of Ferelden is somewhat of a moot point.  He lied to everyone, betrayed Cailan, slandered the  Wardens (essentially demanding their deaths as well), and his actions directly caused the deaths of many at Ostagar.  He did so unapologetically, and seemingly without any hesitation.

I think there are two personality traits in Alistair that overshadow all else:  compassion, and honor.  Loghain, for all his awesomeness, acted very dishonorably.  Alistair has a strong sense in this, and for that, Loghain's death is justice, not revenge.  (Haha, justice and vengeance!)  I have a lot of respect for Alistair in that he won't serve beside Loghain as a Warden.  It's not because he's whiny, it's because if Loghain is a Warden, the Wardens are not honorable any longer in Alistair's eyes (and I agree with him).  Alistair doesn't want to be a part of something like that.  It would break his heart, because this is the first place in his life he considers home (he says that specifically early in the game).  At this point, you've spent the entire game fighting by Alistair's side to get those treaties fulfilled, working toward this point at the Landsmeet, and then to tell him he has to suck it up and fight beside the jerk who caused all this in the first place?  I just couldn't do it.  I can understand wanting to spare Loghain, but I can't understand hating Alistair for his reaction to it.  I thought it was completely justified.

So because the most useless grey warden of all time holds the order up to ideals it never had in the first place we should bow to his whims? As far as the order is concerned it is a net gain in the sum of:

+1 Ferelden general with strategic insight. +1 morale boost for the ferelden people
-1 useless crybaby grey warden / templar.

Ryordan follows the same logic, Alistair does not have the charisma nor capability to draw the people nor are loghains crimes large enough to have him beheaded in the landsmeet if him being alive can serve some greater purpose. 

Both as City elf (manslaughter) and in both dwarf origins (exiled for killing brother / defiling the proving) you get to taste of what people who join the order truly are. Dead men who traded in their deaths for a 15 - 30 year long get out of jail free card in servitude to a greater cause.

and even if Alistair holds honor up high, by obeying him you are still following his stupid missguided sense of self righteousness. At that point in the landsmeet Alistair wants Loghain dead, consequences be damned.

You say Alistair doesn't have the Charisma or capability to be King, but in every epilogue where he is made to rule, it explicitly states that he is well-loved and more than capable.

Loghain's supposed "strategic insight" hasn't exactly done him any favours. All his plans fail, in fact, and he was ignoring the true threat of the Blight to begin with. And if you succeed in the Landsmeet, all the nobles are united against Loghain anyway, so morale is hardly an issue. If anything, the knowledge that a son of Maric still lives is going to be more of a morale boost than allowing a traitor and failure to join the ranks of the Grey Wardens.

Alistair is right to want rLoghain dead. Loghain betrayed Ferelden, nearly bringing it to the brink of destruction at the hands of Darkspawn, blamed it on the Wardens and had his men dogging them at every turn, making it nearly impossible to fix his incredible ****-up.

[KJandrew]

I think Loghain has more reason than Anders.
Loghain's mother was raped and killed by Orlesians; they killed his father and his childhood and teenage friends; He lost more friends throughout the war. The last time he trusted Grey Wardens Maric was nearly kidnapped. Also Cailan was planning to dump Anora so he could feed his vanity and become Emperor of Orlais and Fereldan.
He didn't want the Orlesian's help because they've used the excuse of the blight to conquer Nevarra and the Free Marches before.
What Anders went through while pretty bad doesn't compare to that

[Addai]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

Well now you now[/quote]
Regardless, it doesn't speak well of him. If he wasn't directly involved, there's no possible way he couldn't have heard about it, but he went ahead and promoted Howe anyway. Giving the position of right-hand man to an individual who has recently demonstrated a willingness to slaughter allies is not a sound or even sane decision. Either he recognizes these traits as qualities he shares, and enjoys having a fellow sadistic **** around, or he's a criminally poor judge of character.[/quote]
As I see it, he had little choice.  Howe already occupied Highever and probably Denerim by the time Loghain got back there.  He had an Orlesian army on the borders, darkspawn in the south, Redcliffe cut off by his own actions- with the Bannorn threatening civil war, is he really supposed to open a front in the north, too?  Recall that Cailan tells a Cousland Warden that it will take an army to dislodge Howe.  I do believe that Loghain misjudged Howe and turned a blind eye.  Not saying he wasn't culpable at all, but none of these things are black and white.




[quote]But Empress Celene is not one of them. In 2 she is working with Alistair to keep the peace. From a strategical standpoint, Loghain would've been foolish to prevent a marriage alliance. If Celene was willing to invite Cailan into her life in a legally binding way (not to mention her bed), odds are invasion wasn't at the front of her mind, unless she's just kinky that way. [/quote]
We'll have to disagree on this, vehemently.  Celene is not like her predecessors but there is no way Ferelden comes out of such an arrangement ahead, most likely it comes out far, far behind.  This is supposing Cailan could even have made it work.  It would have been civil war, which was apparently as the game story was intended to be at one point.  I do agree that Loghain was underhanded in how he went about opposing Cailan's overtures towards Orlais.

[quote]Has Flemeth tried to manipulate anyone? She has yet to lie or trick anyone that I've seen. Her nature is mysterious and one should be wary, but if she does have some grand scheme, it's extremely well hidden. Considering how much she is feared, she's been nothing but helpful to the Warden and Hawke. When you think about it, given all she did for you in Origins, going back to kill her seems kind of rude. But I do it anyway.

Loghain is defending his homeland from a threat that is, if not imaginary, then at the very least nowhere near as critical as his diseased mind imagines. Anders is rebelling against a system that is clearly shown to be unjust and oppressive, with no hope for compromise because the mages have no power and no leverage. He is acting in a rational manner, Loghain is not. But it's not my place to tell you what you should or should not find sympathetic.[/quote][/quote]Flemeth manipulates everyone.  She told Maric that a Blight was coming so that he would let Grey Wardens back into Ferelden, so that there would be Grey Wardens for her to get her old god baby, and then maneuvered the Warden and Alistair into also serving this aim.  IMO she sowed doubt about Loghain because he would have opposed Maric in this.

Anders is in no way, shape or form rational.  He has only unleashed death on the people he claims to represent.  He does calculate well that his actions will lead to world war, but he has no plan beyond "BOOM" and then maybe die and become a martyr.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 06:07 .

[The Angry One]

Loghain may have had his reasons, but he was so chronically unsubtle and stupid about the whole thing.
The battle at Ostagar would've been the perfect location to have Cailan assassinated. Have some Antivan Crows arrange for an unfortunate "accident" in the midst of the fighting... that is if Cailan doesn't suffer death by Ogre anyway.

[Plaintiff]

KJandrew wrote...

I think Loghain has more reason than Anders.
Loghain's mother was raped and killed by Orlesians; they killed his father and his childhood and teenage friends; He lost more friends throughout the war. The last time he trusted Grey Wardens Maric was nearly kidnapped. Also Cailan was planning to dump Anora so he could feed his vanity and become Emperor of Orlais and Fereldan.
He didn't want the Orlesian's help because they've used the excuse of the blight to conquer Nevarra and the Free Marches before.
What Anders went through while pretty bad doesn't compare to that

So Anders has to be personally subjected to rape and torture from the templars to be allowed to comment on the injustices of the Circle? Isn't the fact that they happen at all reason enough?

Loghain's actions are insane. Cailan's negotiations with the Orlesians were very tentative and it is made clear in DA2 that the Empress is more concerned with keeing the peace than adding to her empire. A marriage alliance with Orlais would've been extremely beneficial for Ferelden, it would've lessened the possibility of future invasion as is usually the case when royals from two different countries get married.

[Addai]

Cailan was still Maric and Rowan's son, and though DG has said Loghain prepared for the possibility of a retreat, he didn't make his final decision to leave Cailan to the darkspawn until the beacon was lit.  Prior to Ostagar he was trying to arrange a showdown, not an assassination. I know that some think he was too scrupulous on that point and everyone would have been better off if he had done it that way, but these are Fereldans and not Antivans.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[Avissel]

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain may have had his reasons, but he was so chronically unsubtle and stupid about the whole thing.
The battle at Ostagar would've been the perfect location to have Cailan assassinated. Have some Antivan Crows arrange for an unfortunate "accident" in the midst of the fighting... that is if Cailan doesn't suffer death by Ogre anyway.

Or atleast come up with a better cover story than "Yeah, me and my troops ran like hell..cause...the Gray Wardens...something..something."

[Wulfram]

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end, while Loghain just seems to think that random tyranny and enslavement will somehow protect Ferelden from the Orlesians hiding under his bed.

Being Maric's son doesn't stop Loghain trying to kill Alistair throughout the game

[Addai]

Avissel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain may have had his reasons, but he was so chronically unsubtle and stupid about the whole thing.
The battle at Ostagar would've been the perfect location to have Cailan assassinated. Have some Antivan Crows arrange for an unfortunate "accident" in the midst of the fighting... that is if Cailan doesn't suffer death by Ogre anyway.

Or atleast come up with a better cover story than "Yeah, me and my troops ran like hell..cause...the Gray Wardens...something..something."

The Grey Wardens had only been back in Ferelden for less than a generation, after several centuries of exile for attempting a political coup using blood magic.  During that short time they were involved in an Orlesian insurgency on Fereldan soil through the Circle of Magi.  People see the GWs as white knights, however that is not necessarily how they are seen on the ground.  Making them a scapegoat for Ostagar was not the best move, but it wasn't out of left field, either.