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[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end,

What plan?  What end?

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[Madkipz]

Plaintiff wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

I think Loghain has more reason than Anders.
Loghain's mother was raped and killed by Orlesians; they killed his father and his childhood and teenage friends; He lost more friends throughout the war. The last time he trusted Grey Wardens Maric was nearly kidnapped. Also Cailan was planning to dump Anora so he could feed his vanity and become Emperor of Orlais and Fereldan.
He didn't want the Orlesian's help because they've used the excuse of the blight to conquer Nevarra and the Free Marches before.
What Anders went through while pretty bad doesn't compare to that

So Anders has to be personally subjected to rape and torture from the templars to be allowed to comment on the injustices of the Circle? Isn't the fact that they happen at all reason enough?

Loghain's actions are insane. Cailan's negotiations with the Orlesians were very tentative and it is made clear in DA2 that the Empress is more concerned with keeing the peace than adding to her empire. A marriage alliance with Orlais would've been extremely beneficial for Ferelden, it would've lessened the possibility of future invasion as is usually the case when royals from two different countries get married.

Anders is doing the circle a bigger injustice than all rapes and abuses all together. He is basically responsible for every death this "war" causes.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end,

What plan?  What end?

Blow up the chantry to start a revolution and free the mages.  Worked well, too.

[The Angry One]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end,

What plan?  What end?

1. Blow up Chantry
2. Cause war between templars and mages
3. ????
4. Profit

[Avissel]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end,

What plan?  What end?

His plan was to blow up the Church to force and conflict. Which he did..and it worked.

Anders' plan worked. Loghain's plan did not.

Winner: Anders

[The Angry One]

Avissel wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end,

What plan?  What end?

His plan was to blow up the Church to force and conflict. Which he did..and it worked.

Anders' plan worked. Loghain's plan did not.

Winner: Anders

Well, not really. One stage of his plan worked, even though this plan will lead to disaster.
You can similarily argue that Loghain's plan to eliminate Cailan, blame the Grey Wardens and rule as regent worked if you omit what comes after.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end,

What plan?  What end?

Blow up the chantry to start a revolution and free the mages.  Worked well, too.

So who is going to lead this mage jihad?  And what are they going to do when they're "free," assuming they're not all dead?

[Avissel]

The Angry One wrote...

Well, not really. One stage of his plan worked, even though this plan will lead to disaster.
You can similarily argue that Loghain's plan to eliminate Cailan, blame the Grey Wardens and rule as regent worked if you omit what comes after.

I think his plan really only had the one stage. "Blow up Chantry. Start war" it worked pretty well. He didn't really same to have much of plan for anything after that.

[The Angry One]

Avissel wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Well, not really. One stage of his plan worked, even though this plan will lead to disaster.
You can similarily argue that Loghain's plan to eliminate Cailan, blame the Grey Wardens and rule as regent worked if you omit what comes after.

I think his plan really only had the one stage. "Blow up Chantry. Start war" it worked pretty well. He didn't really same to have much of plan for anything after that.

Probably, and that's not much of a plan, that just marks him as an irresponsible terrorist.

[Avissel]

The Angry One wrote...

Probably, and that's not much of a plan, that just marks him as an irresponsible terrorist.

But it WAS a plan, all the same, and it worked.

Loghain should have just used the murder knife.

[Addai]

Avissel wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Anders is much more sane than Loghain.  He has an actual plan to achieve a clearly defined end,

What plan?  What end?

His plan was to blow up the Church to force and conflict. Which he did..and it worked.

Anders' plan worked. Loghain's plan did not.

Winner: Anders

Yeah, brilliant.

1: Blow up Chantry and start war.
2: ??
3: Profit!

Anders' nice speech about how someday mages and templars will skip through the meadows holding hands disounts the fact that his actions reinforce every nightmare about mages that led to the Circle system in the first place.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[Avissel]

I never said it was a GOOD plan

[Anariel Theirin]

Madkipz wrote...

So because the most useless grey warden of all time holds the order up to ideals it never had in the first place we should bow to his whims? As far as the order is concerned it is a net gain in the sum of:

+1 Ferelden general with strategic insight. +1 morale boost for the ferelden people
-1 useless crybaby grey warden / templar.

Ryordan follows the same logic, Alistair does not have the charisma nor capability to draw the people nor are loghains crimes large enough to have him beheaded in the landsmeet if him being alive can serve some greater purpose. 

Both as City elf (manslaughter) and in both dwarf origins (exiled for killing brother / defiling the proving) you get to taste of what people who join the order truly are. Dead men who traded in their deaths for a 15 - 30 year long get out of jail free card in servitude to a greater cause.

and even if Alistair holds honor up high, by obeying him you are still following his stupid missguided sense of self righteousness. At that point in the landsmeet Alistair wants Loghain dead, consequences be damned.

So if I understand you correctly, simply because the Wardens aren't based on honor, then it's stupid to strive for or live for that?  I'm not saying Alistair's stance on this is necessary as a Warden, just *understandable* considering the type of person he is.  Whether the Gray Wardens are meant to be honorable has nothing to do with why Alistair reacts as he does.  It's a personal code type of thing, so the reaction makes perfect sense for him (and for me, because I ascribe to these same beliefs). 

The same thing can be applied to forgiving Loghain of his reactions.  He does what he does, for Ferelden, because he believes in being ruthless if necessary.  Many would call that a lack of honor, and many others would say it's simply part of being a good leader.  They're flip sides of the same coin, and I think who you sympathize with depends on what you find more admirable.

Personally, I find both admirable, but I felt justice needed to be served toward Loghain for his betrayal.  I didn't feel that I could *trust* him not to stab me in the back if he were a Warden with me, especially considering his self-professed disdain for the Wardens.  Should I have subjected my Warden to possible betrayal simply so Loghain could maybe redeem himself?  Hero of Riverdane or not, he still betrayed the throne, the son of his best friend, the husband of his own daughter, and sacrificed the lives of many because of his blind arrogance to the thought that *he* was right, and everyone else is just an idiot.  

Regardless, the decision was difficult for me on some level, as I played a City Elf, and I was able to join the Wardens after having committed manslaughter, as you mentioned.  I played my Warden as always keeping that in mind, and thus made her merciful to others *unless* that act of mercy seemed to put others at additional risk.  I respected Loghain, but felt he was ultimately too dangerous.  (I'd also argue that my City Elf has entirely justifiable reasons for said manslaughter.  Those bastards deserved what was coming to him, and regardless, it was entirely self-defense since they were trying to rape her.  Her actions were honorable still, and based on survival.)

And for the record, I definitely wasn't "obeying" Alistair.  My decision was entirely my own, for all my own reasons.  It just happened to be in agreement with his choice, minus the hatred for Loghain.

[Plaintiff]

Addai67 wrote...
Flemeth manipulates everyone.  She told Maric that a Blight was coming so that he would let Grey Wardens back into Ferelden, so that there would be Grey Wardens for her to get her old god baby, and then maneuvered the Warden and Alistair into also serving this aim.  IMO she sowed doubt about Loghain because he would have opposed Maric in this.

This is really all conjecture. Flemeth's plans are about as clear as mud, if she even has any. She may well be working towards a larger goal, but in terms of direct communication, she's never been anything but honest.

Anders is in no way, shape or form rational.  He has only unleashed death on the people he claims to represent.  He does calculate well that his actions will lead to world war, but he has no plan beyond "BOOM" and then maybe die and become a martyr.

He's a damn sight more rational than Loghain, who sees Orlesians behind every curtain, ignores the clear and present threat of the Blight and does everything he can to get in the way of the only two individuals capable of fixing the mess he's made.

Anders, however, is right in his appraisal of the Circles as a broken, oppressive system. Particularly in Kirkwall. Of course he doesn't have a "plan", war is not something he can plan for. He's not a general, he's a healer living in a slum, what provisions can he make?

Anders actions are rational because he sees the truth; that there is no way to compromise and that as long as Elthina lives, they'll keep defaulting on the issue and Meredith's stranglehold on the mages will simply tighten in the meantime. Neutrality in the face of injustice is injustice, Elthina is just as, if not more guilty than Meredith for failing to put an end to the abuse of mages when she had the power to do so. Anders even gave her one last chance to pick a side and she failed. By that point, I would gladly stabbed her myself.

If he had made the snap decision to nuke the chantry, thinking everyone would just be cool with it, that would be irrational. He is well aware that many mages will die as the consequences of his actions, but he knows that conflict has to be forced if there is to be change, just as the Warden has to force conflict with Loghain in order to unite Ferelden against the Blight.

[PantheraOnca]

Madkipz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

I think Loghain has more reason than Anders.
Loghain's mother was raped and killed by Orlesians; they killed his father and his childhood and teenage friends; He lost more friends throughout the war. The last time he trusted Grey Wardens Maric was nearly kidnapped. Also Cailan was planning to dump Anora so he could feed his vanity and become Emperor of Orlais and Fereldan.
He didn't want the Orlesian's help because they've used the excuse of the blight to conquer Nevarra and the Free Marches before.
What Anders went through while pretty bad doesn't compare to that

So Anders has to be personally subjected to rape and torture from the templars to be allowed to comment on the injustices of the Circle? Isn't the fact that they happen at all reason enough?

Loghain's actions are insane. Cailan's negotiations with the Orlesians were very tentative and it is made clear in DA2 that the Empress is more concerned with keeing the peace than adding to her empire. A marriage alliance with Orlais would've been extremely beneficial for Ferelden, it would've lessened the possibility of future invasion as is usually the case when royals from two different countries get married.

Anders is doing the circle a bigger injustice than all rapes and abuses all together. He is basically responsible for every death this "war" causes.

If you go from a consequentialist lense, the deaths caused by this war are almost certainly less than the deaths and suffering caused by the last 700 years of circle-dom (at least as far as mages are concerned), and would eventually be less than the (mage) deaths caused by the next [x] years of circledom.

I do not agree with Anders' actions, but again, from a consequentialist viewpoint, a single great atrocity will almost always be less harmful than a continuous state of suffering, given enough time.

(I dislike consequentialism for this and other reasons)

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

So who is going to lead this mage jihad?

Who knows?  Who cares?

And what are they going to do when they're "free," assuming they're not all dead?

Well, they're free, so it would be up to them I guess.  And Anders considers that it's better to die fighting for freedom than live a slave.

I certainly don't agree with him, but that doesn't make him mad. 

[TobiTobsen]

They both die in my games. Always. The difference is that I can respect Loghain, Anders not.

Anders annoyed me even in Awakenings. Good job runnig away in the swimming session Anders! No more time outside for all the other mages! And don't let me start about DA2. I just cannot use him. He annoys me as soon as he opens his mouth.
Carver said it best: I dont hate him because he is a mage, I hate him because he won't shut up about it. Not even his healspec makes that up.

Loghain... yeah. He was a great antagonist, even if his plans all somehow failed hilariously. And I just can't disrespect somebody who knows when he has lost. The whole "Hush Anora, it's over" "Daughters will always be eight years old with pigtails in their hair and bruised knees" speech gets me every time.

I will have to start another DAO playthrough to let him live once. Just have to harden Alistair so he can still become king. I'm interested what he has to say in the camp.

[The Angry One]

Yeah you know what? Even Loghain thinking every Orlesian is out to get him is more rational than Anders.
Anders is an abomination driven by hatred and vindictiveness, he's going to impose his arrogant will on all mages whether they like it or not by murdering innocents. He's completely deranged. Loghain at least has some semblance of lucidity even if his actions were suspect.

[Madkipz]

Anariel Theirin wrote...

Madkipz wrote...

So because the most useless grey warden of all time holds the order up to ideals it never had in the first place we should bow to his whims? As far as the order is concerned it is a net gain in the sum of:

+1 Ferelden general with strategic insight. +1 morale boost for the ferelden people
-1 useless crybaby grey warden / templar.

Ryordan follows the same logic, Alistair does not have the charisma nor capability to draw the people nor are loghains crimes large enough to have him beheaded in the landsmeet if him being alive can serve some greater purpose. 

Both as City elf (manslaughter) and in both dwarf origins (exiled for killing brother / defiling the proving) you get to taste of what people who join the order truly are. Dead men who traded in their deaths for a 15 - 30 year long get out of jail free card in servitude to a greater cause.

and even if Alistair holds honor up high, by obeying him you are still following his stupid missguided sense of self righteousness. At that point in the landsmeet Alistair wants Loghain dead, consequences be damned.

So if I understand you correctly, simply because the Wardens aren't based on honor, then it's stupid to strive for or live for that?  I'm not saying Alistair's stance on this is necessary as a Warden, just *understandable* considering the type of person he is.  Whether the Gray Wardens are meant to be honorable has nothing to do with why Alistair reacts as he does.  It's a personal code type of thing, so the reaction makes perfect sense for him (and for me, because I ascribe to these same beliefs). 

The same thing can be applied to forgiving Loghain of his reactions.  He does what he does, for Ferelden, because he believes in being ruthless if necessary.  Many would call that a lack of honor, and many others would say it's simply part of being a good leader.  They're flip sides of the same coin, and I think who you sympathize with depends on what you find more admirable.

Personally, I find both admirable, but I felt justice needed to be served toward Loghain for his betrayal.  I didn't feel that I could *trust* him not to stab me in the back if he were a Warden with me, especially considering his self-professed disdain for the Wardens.  Should I have subjected my Warden to possible betrayal simply so Loghain could maybe redeem himself?  Hero of Riverdane or not, he still betrayed the throne, the son of his best friend, the husband of his own daughter, and sacrificed the lives of many because of his blind arrogance to the thought that *he* was right, and everyone else is just an idiot.  

Regardless, the decision was difficult for me on some level, as I played a City Elf, and I was able to join the Wardens after having committed manslaughter, as you mentioned.  I played my Warden as always keeping that in mind, and thus made her merciful to others *unless* that act of mercy seemed to put others at additional risk.  I respected Loghain, but felt he was ultimately too dangerous.  (I'd also argue that my City Elf has entirely justifiable reasons for said manslaughter.  Those bastards deserved what was coming to him, and regardless, it was entirely self-defense since they were trying to rape her.  Her actions were honorable still, and based on survival.)

And for the record, I definitely wasn't "obeying" Alistair.  My decision was entirely my own, for all my own reasons.  It just happened to be in agreement with his choice, minus the hatred for Loghain.

yes, yes you where. You can keep telling yourself that you killed loghain for your own reasons but fact remains that he gave you an ultimatum before you decided. Either kill loghain or he leaves.

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So who is going to lead this mage jihad?

Who knows?  Who cares?

And what are they going to do when they're "free," assuming they're not all dead?

Well,
they're free, so it would be up to them I guess.  And Anders considers
that it's better to die fighting for freedom than live a slave.

I certainly don't agree with him, but that doesn't make him mad. 

They are free to die by templar hand yes.  This rebellion will ultimately die out and the circle will begin anew.

Modifié par Madkipz, 08 avril 2011 - 06:35 .

[The Angry One]

TobiTobsen wrote...

I will have to start another DAO playthrough to let him live once. Just have to harden Alistair so he can still become king. I'm interested what he has to say in the camp.

If you have Return to Ostagar you have got to save it until you can take Loghain, his lines there are great, as well as his arguments with Wynne.

[Anariel Theirin]

Loghain... yeah. He was a great antagonist, even if his plans all somehow failed hilariously. And I just can't disrespect somebody who knows when he has lost. The whole "Hush Anora, it's over" "Daughters will always be eight years old with pigtails in their hair and bruised knees" speech gets me every time.

I will have to start another DAO playthrough to let him live once. Just have to harden Alistair so he can still become king. I'm interested what he has to say in the camp.

I agree wholeheartedly in everything you said here.

[PantheraOnca]

Madkipz wrote...


yes, yes you where. You can keep telling yourself that you killed loghain for your own reasons but fact remains that he gave you an ultimatum before you decided. Either kill loghain or he leaves.

I don't remember the exact order, but riordan suggests Joining Loghain and then Alistar flips out right? Because as soon as Riordan made that suggestion I'm pretty sure I was like "**** no, **** has to die. **** him" and then Alistar goes and makes an ultimatum.

Letting Loghain live never came in to my mind, regardless of how Alistar reacted.


Edit: Either you keep reading this thread, or you kill yourself. Having read this ultimatum means you're either killing yourself now or have kept reading the thread.

Just because someone gives you an ultimatum doesn't mean you choose your actions based on it.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 08 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[Wulfram]

Madkipz wrote...

They are free to die by templar hand yes.  This rebellion will ultimately die out and the circle will begin anew.

They've always been free to die by templar hand.  Now they're at least fighting back.  As for the fate of the rebellion, we don't know that.  It seems to be going well so far.

[Arppis]

PsychoWARD23 wrote...

 There's no "right" answer, both are people who feel like they were doing the right thing but may have gone to extremes to do so. You have the option of killing them or letting them go, very, very similar. 


Funny, these were the hardest choices for me in both games.

Stabing him is the right answer. Because there is no jails around. He should pay for his actions, plain and simple.

[Plaintiff]

Madkipz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

I think Loghain has more reason than Anders.
Loghain's mother was raped and killed by Orlesians; they killed his father and his childhood and teenage friends; He lost more friends throughout the war. The last time he trusted Grey Wardens Maric was nearly kidnapped. Also Cailan was planning to dump Anora so he could feed his vanity and become Emperor of Orlais and Fereldan.
He didn't want the Orlesian's help because they've used the excuse of the blight to conquer Nevarra and the Free Marches before.
What Anders went through while pretty bad doesn't compare to that

So Anders has to be personally subjected to rape and torture from the templars to be allowed to comment on the injustices of the Circle? Isn't the fact that they happen at all reason enough?

Loghain's actions are insane. Cailan's negotiations with the Orlesians were very tentative and it is made clear in DA2 that the Empress is more concerned with keeing the peace than adding to her empire. A marriage alliance with Orlais would've been extremely beneficial for Ferelden, it would've lessened the possibility of future invasion as is usually the case when royals from two different countries get married.

Anders is doing the circle a bigger injustice than all rapes and abuses all together. He is basically responsible for every death this "war" causes.

That's a matter of opinion. I would rather have the opportunity to fight for my freedom than be oppressed under a broken system and have no recourse because everyone in power believes my mere existence is a sin. Anders has succeeded in freeing the mages; they are free to fight back, for starters.

Anders is to blame for what the templars do in response to his actions? If someone hits me am I not responsible for my decision to hit him back? If provocation absolves individuals of blame, I could argue that Meredith is responsible for the war because she provoked Anders into action with her blatant tyranny. I could argue that Elthina is responsible for implicitly endorsing Meredith's actions by failing to act. I could argue that the Chantry as a whole brought it on themselves for oppressing mages in the first place.